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Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 2:57:03 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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It has been said by some that Lordship salvation is a false gospel.
I believe Jesus Christ cannot be divided. Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. His Lordship accompanies His mercies and graces.
Jesus Christ cannot be a partial savior, saving without being God to His disciples. Jesus will not share the glory of God with anyone else, therefore whom ever is under the Lordship of another and yet claims Christ as a Savior might well find himself "a worker of iniquity" and a
person who Jesus says "I never knew you".
The Word of God teaches that man is delivered by Jesus Christ from the penalty and the power of sin. Lordship salvation is a term coined only in resistance to the kind of salvation that is offered which plays down Christ's Lordship and the commands of God to flee from sin.
Cross bearing Christians understand Lordship to be the only freedom from the power of sin. Salvation affixed to any other redemption that lacks Christ's position of power and authority is a concoction of modern christian compromise.
What say you? Can you have salvation and not be "Lorded over" by Jesus Christ? Can you know the assurance of the forgiveness of sins and make the commandment to crucify the flesh optional?
What is your slant?
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 3:44:06 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Jesus Christ cannot be a partial savior, saving without being God to His disciples. Jesus will not share the glory of God with anyone else, therefore whom ever is under the Lordship of another and yet claims Christ as a Savior might well find himself "a worker of iniquity" and a
person who Jesus says "I never knew you".
It is interesting that you quote Matthew 7:22. There the "workers of iniquity" affirm the Lordship of Christ and are pronounced workers of iniquity and are said to not know Christ.
quote:
The Word of God teaches that man is delivered by Jesus Christ from the penalty and the power of sin. Lordship salvation is a term coined only in resistance to the kind of salvation that is offered which plays down Christ's Lordship and the commands of God to flee from sin.
You are mistaken unless you know my POV better than I do myself, and I do not think you do. I believe what is often called the FreeGrace POV. I do not deny the Lordship of Christ. Why would you suggest I and others do unless you were told something and did not bother to check it out.
quote:
Cross bearing Christians understand Lordship to be the only freedom from the power of sin. Salvation affixed to any other redemption that lacks Christ's position of power and authority is a concoction of modern christian compromise.
What say you? Can you have salvation and not be "Lorded over" by Jesus Christ? Can you know the assurance of the forgiveness of sins and make the commandment to crucify the flesh optional?
What is your slant?
John
I am not sure you understand the FreeGrace perspective. The controversy is not whether or not Christ is Lord. Nor is it whether or not Christ frees us from sin. The controversy ultimately is whether or not one can be saved without affirming himself as a disciple of Christ.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 5:28:21 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 542
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Graham:
Should I interpret your free grace POV to mean..
"How much of the rights of Jesus Christ can I deny Him and still consider myself assured of a good welcome at my death?"
or
"How far can I assume on Jesus Christ to secure my salvation while I
withhold affirming my connection to His Name?"
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 5:35:26 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2319
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Graham:
Should I interpret your free grace POV to mean..
"How much of the rights of Jesus Christ can I deny Him and still consider myself assured of a good welcome at my death?"
or
"How far can I assume on Jesus Christ to secure my salvation while I
withhold affirming my connection to His Name?"
John
I have a better question for you. When did you stop beating your wife?
C'mon. If you want to have a discussion, you'll have to stop asking dumb questions like that.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 5:42:41 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 542
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quote:
It is interesting that you quote Matthew 7:22. There the "workers of iniquity" affirm the Lordship of Christ and are pronounced workers of iniquity and are said to not know Christ.
Graham:
Maybe what should be considered is...
If they who call Christ Lord and do not do His will, find themselves rejected at the bar of God, how shall those who deny His Lordship outright
fair any better?
The Lordship of Jesus Christ is not a hidden knowledge from His disciples.
That knowledge is birthed in them from that incorruptable seed.
A man may be born again who is ignorant of theology, but he will not be ignorant of the God whom has redeemed him. Jesus Christ's Lordship is within the Word that brings forth fruit unto God. To say a man can be saved and lack a knowledge of who the Lord is, I believe to be utterly false. God births his children by His own Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord witnesses to that disciple Christs Lordship and the fear of God.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 5:45:15 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 542
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quote:
I have a better question for you. When did you stop beating your wife?
C'mon. If you want to have a discussion, you'll have to stop asking dumb questions like that.
The answer is simple, I never have.
Go ahead and answer me, Im learning.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 6:01:47 PM
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GrahamCracker
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
quote:
I have a better question for you. When did you stop beating your wife?
C'mon. If you want to have a discussion, you'll have to stop asking dumb questions like that.
The answer is simple, I never have.
Go ahead and answer me, Im learning.
John
Your original question was a couple of loaded ones. In asking a loaded question, the point is that the responder cannot answer the question as it is asked. In your answer, you did not answer the question I asked. "I never have," was not among the choices offered.
To answer YOUR question, NEITHER question is appropriate. And that's why I declined to answer it. It's trying to button hole someone into affirming two positions, neither of which they accept. But that presupposes that those are the only two possibilities.
The distinction between those who affirm Lordship salvation and the FreeGrace perspective is essentially a matter of discipleship. John MacArthur popularized the Lordship Salvation POV in a couple of his books.
He affirms that one cannot be saved without acknowledging his own discipleship under Jesus Christ. I disagree with that.
Those of the FreeGrace perspective do not deny the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Charles Ryrie in his book even titled one of his chapters: "Of Course He is Lord."
But the ultimate question is "What does it mean to believe in Jesus Christ?" Multiple texts of the Bible affirm that when we believe in Christ, we have eternal life.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 8:14:55 PM
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lw9
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Can someone point me to the best [most concise and to the point] article by MacArthur himself regarding Lordship Salvation? I have never heard of this before and ran into it from the other MacArthur thread. I'd like to see what this doctrine states in plain terms. If you know of such an article, great. If not, no worries!
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 8:20:12 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Can someone point me to the best [most concise and to the point] article by MacArthur himself regarding Lordship Salvation? I have never heard of this before and ran into it from the other MacArthur thread. I'd like to see what this doctrine states in plain terms. If you know of such an article, great. If not, no worries!
I can point you to some articles that quote him extensively. But I hesitate to do so because some people might say the articles take him out of context. It would probably be better to read some of his books.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 8:41:22 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Hello lw9:
John Macarthur wrote a book published in 1988 "The Gospel according to Jesus"
In this book he addresses the flaws of 'bare assent', namely attaching oneself to Christ
while divorcing oneself from the commands of discipleship on account it might appear to be adding works to justification.
There is much more to this and you would probably enjoy the book.
John as well as I look upon this as a denegrating of the Gospel of Jesus when it is stripped of Christ's Lordship qualities.
For those of you who want to address John Macarthurs book in this thread you are more than welcome, criticizm or praise is fine with me. I have an autographed copy..whoo hoo..
I am not trying to double-up on John Macarthur since there is a thread about him already.
But his book and perspective on Lordship salvation and my perspective are open.
There is a saying "Make Christ Lord of your life", and if you dont, you still have a savior.
Johns arguments and platform is built upon "Christ is Lord", you dont make him one, nor can you in any real sense make Christ Lord where he is not already Lord. Therefore Christ's Lordship is implied in any call to discipleship.
John M's perspective is a Christ-centeredness in gospel preaching. Christ's Lordship is submitted to, we are humbly obedient to and have no actual biblical salvation from Christ apart from His Lordship.
so goes the debate.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 9:29:34 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 542
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Grahams statement to me that I dont know the free grace position, or that I am misunderstanding that POV cannot be overlooked. In all fairness to my dissenters I give this overview
"Free Grace" Theology: An Overview
The "free grace" movement is not synonymous with no-lordship teaching. There are many no-lordship teachers who do not fall into the "free grace" camp. However, all "free grace" teachers do hold fundamentally to a no-lordship viewpoint. But their teaching goes much further than that. Having started with the tenet that one may receive Christ as Savior and not as Lord, they then interpret the whole New Testament in that light. This has led to an interpretation of many New Testament passages which departs from the historic understanding of these texts. Among their beliefs are the following:
Repentance is never to be included as part of the gospel message.
One may receive Christ as Savior, yet reject Him as Lord. That is, one may receive Christ by faith alone ("intellectual assent" is the definition some of them affirm), yet do so with ongoing rebellion--accepting the gift while shaking a fist at the giver. God does not necessarily change the heart (to grant a love for Christ, or even a receptivity to Him) when He saves someone.
True Christians will not necessarily evidence their faith by works (or "fruit"). In fact, a true Christian may never show any evidence of the new birth.
True Christians will not necessarily persevere in the faith. In fact, a true Christian may receive Jesus as Savior, later become intellectually unconvinced of the gospel, denounce Christ and become an atheist; however, because of that one human decision made at one point in time, he is still considered to be saved. For instance, Joseph Dillow, in The Reign of the Sevant Kings, says, "It is possible for a truly born-again person to fall away from the faith and cease believing." (p.199). True Christians may fall away completely from the faith and still be saved. God in no way grants them perseverance, or sustains them in their faith.
At the Bema seat, Christ will divide believers into two distinct and separate groups: the faithful, "overcoming" Christians will be allowed to reign with Him in the millennial kingdom; they are the "heirs" of the kingdom. Unfaithful, carnal believers, however, will get into the kingdom, but will not be allowed to reign with Christ. They enter the kingdom but do not inherit it. In fact, they will be barred from the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, and will be cast outside of the wedding banquet, where they will weep and gnash their teeth (just as unbelievers will do in hell). The millennium will therefore be a time of sorrow and weeping for these children of God.
For the whole article please see this link
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/freegrace.html
The theological leadership that hold this view are
Zane Hodges, Charles Ryrie, Earl Radmacher and some from Dallas Theological seminary.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 10:08:03 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 542
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I am probably putting everyone in overload mode buy injecting all this information. But at the risk of making this a decent study to enter...here a link to a pastor who
is free grace and sees its main proponents of Free grace running headlong into error.
http://www.duluthbible.org/246451.ihtml
Click on the "crossless gospel" article.
This should give everyone enough to chew on in helping to decide biblically what one should believe.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 10:27:34 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2319
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
This has led to an interpretation of many New Testament passages which departs from the historic understanding of these texts. Among their beliefs are the following:
Repentance is never to be included as part of the gospel message.
One may receive Christ as Savior, yet reject Him as Lord. That is, one may receive Christ by faith alone ("intellectual assent" is the definition some of them affirm), yet do so with ongoing rebellion--accepting the gift while shaking a fist at the giver. God does not necessarily change the heart (to grant a love for Christ, or even a receptivity to Him) when He saves someone.
To be really honest, I have never read that. Often, they do include the use of the term "intellectual assent." But they do not divorce intellectual assent from heart felt affirmation.
And as far as accepting Christ with a fist shaking at the giver--Sorry, that is a misrepresentation. And, as far as God not necessarily changing the heart, quite the opposite is true. Generally, the changes are considered as being not obvious.
People often make judgments about the salvation of individuals when they cannot see what they expect to see.
quote:
True Christians will not necessarily evidence their faith by works (or "fruit"). In fact, a true Christian may never show any evidence of the new birth.
That is not true either. Let me 'splain it to you. Works are NOT the evidence by which one is saved. And works are not the proof whereby one needs to be certain of their salvation. Faith is.
A FreeGrace believe does not say that Christians will not show evidence of their salvation by works. It's just that one's salvation is not judged by their works.
quote:
True Christians will not necessarily persevere in the faith. In fact, a true Christian may receive Jesus as Savior, later become intellectually unconvinced of the gospel, denounce Christ and become an atheist; however, because of that one human decision made at one point in time,
It is true that some believe that someone may cease to believe. But since the Bible does not say they cannot, I find it difficult to think the opposite can be clearly proven.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 11:32:25 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1281
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Hi GrahamCracker and Gloryandgrace:
I just checked my local library online, and they don't carry 'The Gospel according to Jesus', so I will probably dig around his website and see what I find. Thanks for the suggestions. I'm not only curious about MacArthur, but I've always found both of you to be reasonable, logical, straightforward, and well-studied [which is a thumbs up to both of you!], so I look forward seeing how this particular discussion unfolds.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/6/2007 11:50:47 PM
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HisbyHischoice
Posts: 919
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Florida
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He must be our Savior (Rescuer) and Lord (King, Authority) at the same time.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
It has been said by some that Lordship salvation is a false gospel.
I believe Jesus Christ cannot be divided. Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. His Lordship accompanies His mercies and graces.
Jesus Christ cannot be a partial savior, saving without being God to His disciples. Jesus will not share the glory of God with anyone else, therefore whom ever is under the Lordship of another and yet claims Christ as a Savior might well find himself "a worker of iniquity" and a
person who Jesus says "I never knew you".
The Word of God teaches that man is delivered by Jesus Christ from the penalty and the power of sin. Lordship salvation is a term coined only in resistance to the kind of salvation that is offered which plays down Christ's Lordship and the commands of God to flee from sin.
Cross bearing Christians understand Lordship to be the only freedom from the power of sin. Salvation affixed to any other redemption that lacks Christ's position of power and authority is a concoction of modern christian compromise.
What say you? Can you have salvation and not be "Lorded over" by Jesus Christ? Can you know the assurance of the forgiveness of sins and make the commandment to crucify the flesh optional?
What is your slant?
John
_____________________________
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." ---John 15:16
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/7/2007 3:58:19 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2319
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Hi GrahamCracker and Gloryandgrace:
I just checked my local library online, and they don't carry 'The Gospel according to Jesus', so I will probably dig around his website and see what I find. Thanks for the suggestions. I'm not only curious about MacArthur, but I've always found both of you to be reasonable, logical, straightforward, and well-studied [which is a thumbs up to both of you!], so I look forward seeing how this particular discussion unfolds.
When I need to look up something, I have access to my church's library. I assume your church doesn't have one? Is it possible there is a church in your area with a library?
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/7/2007 10:25:38 AM
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crankius
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Lordship Salvation is like being a Calvinist without the fringe benefits. 
They are TULI instead of TULIP. The assurance for the saints becomes fear and anxiety.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
"One Another" Commands
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/7/2007 12:03:43 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 542
Joined: 1/15/2006
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Hi Graham:
The rebuttals to that article are fine with me, except i didnt write it.
See the link to get the whole thing.
I spent some time yesterday on boning up on the Free grace position.
In the end, what I came away with is some worthy warnings to "lordship salvationists" ( I use that term as a point of reference) to beware of creating a false standard. That standard being someone who is a catachumen is considered ready for salvation and someone who is not is not ready for salvation. I do find merit on a certain level with that. But I see that the corrective has become drunk on its own importance and is now opened a door to false conversions, or false converts with a hearty amen. The doctrines of free grace as expounded on by Hodges is now sinking in error. It wont be long before he will be heterodox (if he isnt already).
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/7/2007 12:09:29 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 542
Joined: 1/15/2006
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hello Crankius:
Lordship salvation held by Arminians will no doubt be warning their fellows of losing their salvation, lordship salvation in the hands of Arminian believers can replace the shepherds staff with a steel rod to inflict pain and guilt upon wayward sheep.
5 pointers such as RC Sproul and Macarthur dont need anything but the staff (the word of God) as a corrective.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/7/2007 1:18:02 PM
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crankius
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Lordship Salvation, however, can make a Calvinist behave much like an Arminian. Salvation becomes highly questionable, and assurance of salvation comes through the works of men rather than through the blood of Christ.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
"One Another" Commands
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/7/2007 7:10:27 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2319
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Lordship Salvation, however, can make a Calvinist behave much like an Arminian. Salvation becomes highly questionable, and assurance of salvation comes through the works of men rather than through the blood of Christ.
That is an unappreciated observation.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/7/2007 11:00:50 PM
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HisbyHischoice
Posts: 919
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From: Florida
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What? We submit to His authority at the moment of salvation, you know the whole broken and contrite spirit thing. It's not about works, it's about obedience. And we cannot have obedience, faith or repentance apart from His grace
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Lordship Salvation, however, can make a Calvinist behave much like an Arminian. Salvation becomes highly questionable, and assurance of salvation comes through the works of men rather than through the blood of Christ.
_____________________________
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." ---John 15:16
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 7/7/2007 11:23:35 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisbyHischoice
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Lordship Salvation is like being a Calvinist without the fringe benefits.
They are TULI instead of TULIP. The assurance for the saints becomes fear and anxiety.
Are we exchanging verses? Proverbs 1:7 is the wrong verse to cite about fearing for salvation. Scripturally, a saint is not to fear for their salvation.
Matt 10: 31-32 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven."
For the saint, there is no fear. It is wrong to have saints questioning the work of the atonement for their justification. When Lordship Salvation is taken too far, those who are genuinely confessing Christ before men end up having fear, and this is unbiblical.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
"One Another" Commands
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