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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 11:21:47 AM
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PDChaplain
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Here is what happened in the Great State of Texas. 
http://www.cpn.org/topics/families/texas.html
An excerpt ......
"This paper takes a case study approach to understanding the inter-relationship between public and nonprofit organizations. I will discuss how feminists within the Texas battered women's movement engaged with the state in order to bring a feminist movement agenda to local shelter activists, state agency employees, and legislators, among others. The Texas movement is of particular interest because it has been instrumental in the funding, evaluation, and administration of state funds to battered women's shelters through a series of contracts with the state. "
and this, detailing the conflict with Christians .....
"10. There has been active resistance by some attendees at the sessions on homophobia and lesbian battering. Primarily it comes from women in the shelter community who are fundamentalist Christians. For a discussion of feminism and fundamentalism see Stacey (1990)."
This is fairly representative of the overall state of the "shelter" movement throughout the US, Canada, and elsewhere.
Texas is a huge state, folks. Are we going to read this and hide behind the denial of, "Well, this is just an isolated incident?" No, it is not and this research details exactly what has happened within the feminist agenda in Texas. The sooner we take our collective heads out of the sand and see the destruction to families through these ..... uuummmm .... "sanctuaries" .... then the sooner we can see the OTHER side of the coin.
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." -Hosea 6:6
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 1:31:50 PM
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KHutcheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
On a more serious note-as long as women continued to be beaten and murdered by their spouses, and churches don't have much of an alternative to offer- their will be a need for secular women's shelters. In the name of the two women I know personally who no longer walk this earth due to being murdered by the losers they were married to, I hope the day when shelters are no longer necessary will come soon. (I've lost both a cousin and a coworker to domestic violence.)
The generation of women who came before me have worked hard to bring domestic violence out of the closet, where often I think the church would prefer it stay. If men need services that aren't being offered, then perhaps it's time for men to do the foot work that women have done over the last few decades to help fill in the gap in necessary care.
You said it, HisLamb. The church has been totally inadequate. Abusers are often very charming, very educated and very manipulative - and they can very easily fool pastors and others. I have seen it first hand.
F. Lee Grady was quoted at this link: http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/5lies.html
"A comprehensive study on domestic violence in the church in the mid 80's revealed that 26 percent of the pastors counseled an abused wife to keep submitting and trust that God would either stop the abuse or give her the strength to endure it. About a fourth of the pastors believed that abuse is the wife's fault because of her lack of submission! And a majority of the pastors said it is better for wives to endure violence against them than to seek a separation that might end in divorce."
Now, this was 20 years ago. Perhaps things have changed somewhat. But if this is the attitude in a church, any church, where would an abused woman go? Because so many churches frown on separations, even for violence, women can be faced with a terrible dilemma - obey their church and endure beatings, or escape the violence and face the disapproval of their church. Thank God for the shelters who give these women and children a safe place.
James 2:12-17 says:
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Kevin
_____________________________
"The grace of God means something like: Here is your life. You might never have been, but you are because the party wouldn't have been complete without you." (Frederick Buechner)
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 1:57:20 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I have had much to do with the shelters in many places I have lived in order to support them and volunteer. I, too, have not seen such negative activities as have been written here, and I don't believe such actions even come close to dominating. What does happen is that the males who are weak and afraid enough to batter women, and those who support them, are afraid of the shelters because they teach women to empower themselves against their abusers and how to live without them.
As far as my town goes, we have far more male-only shelters than female-only shelters as well as a few family shelters. Since I have contributed to all in various ways, and must work with them in my office, yes, I know.
I wish Mrs. Brame, who once lived in a city in my state, had had access to such a shelter, but her husband, a police chief, had her so cowed that she felt like there was no protection for her. She is dead now, but her children will live with the memory of seeing their mother shot to death in front of them by their father.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 2:07:39 PM
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PDChaplain
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I would be very interested in obtaining contact info for all these male shelters. Please .... anyone who can substantiate their claims ..... give me the links or phone numbers for them.
Thank you.
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 2:47:55 PM
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PDChaplain
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Here is what is happening in California. Yeah .... let me guess .... just one more "isolated incidence". 
http://www.glennsacks.com/new_doj_domestic.htm
An excerpt .....
"Last year, more than 50 domestic violence researchers and treatment providers signed a letter urging the California legislature to stop the state's policy of excluding male victims and their children from domestic violence services. Signatory John Hamel, author of the book Gender-Inclusive Treatment of Intimate Partner Abuse: A Comprehensive Approach, told legislators: "Men account for half of all DV [domestic violence] victims and incur a third of DV-related injuries. Ignoring female-on-male violence inhibits our efforts to combat domestic violence."
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 2:51:58 PM
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PDChaplain
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HHHHHMMMMMMMM................
http://www.glennsacks.com/octobers_domestic_violence.htm
"The National Institute of Mental Health funded and oversaw two of the largest studies of domestic violence ever conducted, both of which found equal rates of abuse between husbands and wives. California State Long Beach University professor Martin Fiebert maintains an online bibliography summarizing 174 scholarly investigations, with an aggregate sample size exceeding 160,000, which conclude "women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners."
Nevertheless, many states still define domestic violence as a crime only committed against women, and exclude male victims and their children from receiving state-funded DV services."
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 2:56:41 PM
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PDChaplain
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Another example of the "isolated incident" from California ....
http://www.glennsacks.com/california_domestic_violence.htm
"The California Battered Women Protection Act of 1994, codified in Health & Safety Codes Section 124250, et. seq., created funding for domestic violence shelter-based services. However, by defining domestic violence as something only experienced by women, the statutes exclude male victims from receiving state-funded domestic violence services, including shelter, hotel arrangements, counseling and legal services."
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 3:02:22 PM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PDChaplain
I would be very interested in obtaining contact info for all these male shelters. Please .... anyone who can substa
Thank you.
Well, here's proof that it didn't take long to Google on that topic, if one really wants to find out. I am not endorsing any of these organizations, since I know little about them. These are in the US. There were others in other countries.
Domestic Abuse Hotline for Men and Women - in Maine. While male shelter space is limited, some is available. Also offers many other services for abused men. From their homepage: "...we specialize in offering support and services to male victims of spousal and intimate partner violence."
Family Violence Prevention, Inc. - Arkansas. Quote: FVP is a United Way of Independence County agency and community-based project that provides safe shelter, counseling and other support services (such as legal aid) to battered men, women and their children as well as victims of sexual assault.
Valley Oasis Family Violence Shelter - California. Quote: Offers services to anyone, regardless of gender...
SAFE - New Hampshire - New Hampshire...developing an emergency shelter for all victims of domestic violence - men, women and children.
The Mary Parrish Center - Tennessee. I'm pretty sure that they shelter both men and women...even their web site is carefully written to avoid gender-specific language when discussing abuse victims.
Sexual Assault Crisis Team of Washington County - Vermont. Shelter for both male and female victims of sexual abuse.
South Valley Sanctuary - Utah. Quote 1: South Valley Sanctuary’s mission is a humanitarian effort to provide refuge, education and support to all survivors of domestic violence. We provide individualized, survivor-focused services that aim to empower men, women and children survivors as they work towards breaking the cycle of violence. Quote 2: Has 13 rooms and 57 beds to assist men, women, and children.
That took all of ten minutes...there are a lot more.
Anecdotal stories do not prove wide-reaching claims.
_____________________________
less junk, more Jesus
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 3:10:56 PM
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PDChaplain
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Nice try ..... and you ARE trying to help me here, which I appreciate. I am rather distressed to see phrases such as "developing", "I'm pretty sure". Try as you might, it is still my belief that MOST shelters are feminist-oriented with little or no services available to men. I'm still acquiring factual evidence to prove it. Care to comment on the sources I've already shared?
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 3:19:57 PM
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PDChaplain
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State of grace, one of your sources used to legitimitize your stance is in fact ILLEGITIMATE when compared to the overall picture of what is happening in California.
You used the example of Valley Oasis Family Violence Shelter. Now, here is the factual account of how frail the effort of this ONE shelter is when compared with ALL of Los Angeles County.
http://www.glennsacks.com/ncfmla_lawsuit_against.htm
"Despite the need, the reaction from the Los Angeles County Domestic Violence Council and the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors to advocates for male victims of domestic violence has been indifferent at best. In early 2002, NCFM‑LA and the domestic violence advocacy group Stop Abuse For Everyone submitted a proposal to the Council which called for a task force to address the issue of abused men. The Council never even responded to this proposal.
Domestic violence shelters can and have provided services for both male and female victims of domestic violence. The Valley Oasis shelter in Lancaster, the only shelter in all of Los Angeles County which admits male victims, has for years set aside space for men and has at times mingled male and female victims without incident."
Now, brother, you also quoted this at the bottom of your post .....
"Anecdotal stories do not prove wide-reaching claims."
Can we safely say that you fell victim to your OWN tactics here?
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 3:24:14 PM
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PDChaplain
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Here we go again .... once again from the Great State of California ....
http://www.glennsacks.com/kuehls_marriage_license.htm
"County domestic violence programs, which will receive and disburse the funds provided by SB 1618, have been indifferent at best towards male victims. For example, Los Angeles County funds two dozen shelters for abused women, but only one shelter accepts male victims, and it is in Lancaster, 80 miles from downtown Los Angeles. San Diego County has only one domestic violence shelter which is willing to consider housing a male victim, and abused men are often referred to homeless shelters--not suitable places for a victimized father to take his children."
The developing pattern here is that we see a few submitting random examples of shelters reaching out to men, trying vainly to show us this is the norm. However, as we examine the OVERALL state of these "shelters", we are finding men are rarely if ever offered services. Just because a sprinkling of shelters are available to men, we can't honestly say that the FAR REACHING mission of these shelters is to offer men's services.
Please bear with me as I continue to prove this point. 
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 3:25:12 PM
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stateofgrace
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How about answering the questions people have asked you throughout this thread? The ones you've avoided? Posts 52, 67, and 78, for example.
And did you ever PM or email GraceyGirl about the grants that could potentially be available to you if you wanted to help abused men?
Frankly, many shelters don't make it a priority to put together a fancy web site. I'm not surprised about that. You could certainly call the Mary Parish Center if you were really interested in finding out if they offer shelter to men. I wasn't going to say that they DID offer shelter to men based on their web site, but I found their site from googling to a site that linked resources for abused men.
And that's it from me for a while. I'm really not interested in your ongoing fishing trip, which has yet to prove anything. I think that it's very clear that something else is going on with you.
Just my two cents - I humbly suggest that you consider whether you might want to take a breather yourself, and converse with the Lord about whether this is where you should be focusing your attention?
< Message edited by stateofgrace -- 8/21/2007 3:36:10 PM >
_____________________________
less junk, more Jesus
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 3:41:31 PM
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Ps103
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 3:47:20 PM
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PDChaplain
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Seems this imbalance towards men also extends to the UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Violence_against_men
"In the UK there are 440 refuges for women to run to and to take their children with them, and only two such refuges for men."
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 4:08:48 PM
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Memaw.
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Well, I see this is going off the deep end and since I can't swim....I'm outta here.
Y'all have a super time. 
_____________________________
Life is uncertain...eat dessert first!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 4:21:18 PM
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PDChaplain
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Memaw, thanks for your participation here. I know I an busting up some old myths and stereotypes. Really, this is how we learn.
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 4:47:36 PM
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hnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PDChaplain
What happens between myself and another poster, through PM's, is none of your business.
Sure looks to me that your gun of logic is shooting blanks .....
I truly find your response quite odd.
She does have a point about you only addressing certain questions and parts that you seem to be comfortable with. Why the diversion? hmmmm. Never mind.
quote:
I know I an busting up some old myths and stereotypes. Really, this is how we learn.
From my prospective you haven't broken up any myths and stereotypes Either. More than one person acknowledged that not all shelters are the best sources. All you have said is MOST aren't, and linked to articles that supported your view...and mentioned those were proof. Some of those articles actually had other things to say about the subject compared to what you choice to post as well. If you are trying to make points you have to at least listen to what others are saying as well, but your man hater comments seem to get in the way of that. You are totally unwilling to place one piggy toe there. All I see is you telling others they are naive or radical feminists if they won't agree 100%.
You don't learn anything from doing that either! You wish to deal with life in extremes all the time I guess that is your choice. To me its sad because you can't see any portion of what else could be as well.
I think am done here as well.
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 5:05:51 PM
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StephK
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Glenn Sacks is a women's haters' men's rights advocate. This issue is not a men vs. women issue. It's a gross sin issue where someone thinks it's okay to impart their will by the use of violence and intimidation. Do yourself a favor and get more of your information from a variety of sources.
I thank God for women's shelters and places of refuge from violence be they christian or secular. Unless you've been on the other side of the fist it's just rhetoric. I grew up with a very physically violent father. He terrorized his family and would do things to keep my mother from being able to leave for our physical safety. God did provide a way out of that hell and I thank God everyday that there were a few people back then who provided a safe way out.
I've worked in social services and have had to find emergency shelter and there's plenty of places for men to go to but women and children are still to this day often left out in the cold. IME most of the rescue missions and other men's shelters are linked up with local community services including counseling so that if there are abuse issues they can be addressed.
< Message edited by StephK -- 8/21/2007 5:15:17 PM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
Communism "IS" socialism....
"How do you tell a Socialist:- It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-Socialist someone who understands Marx and Lenin" -Ronald Reagan
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 5:28:22 PM
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Kath
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 6:11:36 PM
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GraceyGirl
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Oh lord. . .it's gone baaaaaaaaaad really fast.
The thing is, I see his point. . .although I don't necessarily subscribe to the "this is the way it is everywhere" theory.
I think we as Christians need to offer sanctuary to hurting PEOPLE through the church and church agencies. And if we aren't. . .we need to start. It isn't that difficult to begin the process, and once begun it moves along quite quickly.
Calling to accountability those doing the battering is a more pressing matter. If men are harming women, then Godly men need to step in and begin a discipleship process. If women are abusing men, then Godly women need to step up and begin a discipleship process. This all comes down to us being able and willing to lay aside our right to judgement, our right to justice, and open our hearts to the Father's. I will NEVER believe it is His will that a family be destroyed. there are too many resources within our own body of believers for this sad thing to happen as often as it does.
That's my two cents worth. . .
and for the record. . .he never PM'ed me about grants.
_____________________________
All I want is You ~ All I crave is You
All I want is You ~All I crave is You
My soul pants for God and God ALONE!!
~Misty Edwards
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 6:49:44 PM
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Memaw.
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quote:
I think we as Christians need to offer sanctuary to hurting PEOPLE through the church and church agencies. And if we aren't. . .we need to start. It isn't that difficult to begin the process, and once begun it moves along quite quickly.
I will peek my head in and say I totally agree with this Gracey.
My post #11 of this thread said this:
quote:
When we (as THE CHURCH) leave the STATE to take care of our battered, of our hurting, what do we expect?
When will the church step up to its' responsibility in taking care of those who need help?
When our new sanctuary is built do you think we will have time?
After the board meeting to determine how much of a raise Pastor will get will we THEN have time?
However, until that happens, there has to be a safe place for those who are battered.
Ok, I am outta here again. 
_____________________________
Life is uncertain...eat dessert first!
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 7:50:49 PM
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KHutcheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
My post #11 of this thread said this:
quote:
When we (as THE CHURCH) leave the STATE to take care of our battered, of our hurting, what do we expect?
When will the church step up to its' responsibility in taking care of those who need help?
When our new sanctuary is built do you think we will have time?
After the board meeting to determine how much of a raise Pastor will get will we THEN have time?
Memaw, I think one of the biggest reasons the church isn't stepping up here is because they don't know how. Many (if not most) pastors are simply not trained to spot and deal with domestic abuse. Abusers are charming on the outside, and the abused spouse (male or female) often covers it up out of shame and fear. I have never once heard a pastor speak about domestic abuse from the pulpit. Many women (and perhaps men) have gone to their pastors seeking help, and haven't gotten it. So the next time why wouldn't they go to a shelter? I am thankful they are there, too. I have people close to me who have had need of them.
Kevin
_____________________________
"The grace of God means something like: Here is your life. You might never have been, but you are because the party wouldn't have been complete without you." (Frederick Buechner)
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 8:16:00 PM
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StephK
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Honestly a lot of the more rigid legalistic churches make matters worse for abused spouses to leave. I know of one person who finally got the courage to leave when her husband broke an ankle and wrist. She was told the biggest lie and had a guilt trip laid on her saying that if she divorced she would go to hell. She went back for more beatings. She finally left for good but she also left the church too. Unfortunately she's not the only one.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Communism "IS" socialism....
"How do you tell a Socialist:- It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-Socialist someone who understands Marx and Lenin" -Ronald Reagan
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RE: Women's "Shelters" really shelters? - 8/21/2007 8:43:59 PM
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HisLamb26
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quote:
I think we as Christians need to offer sanctuary to hurting PEOPLE through the church and church agencies. And if we aren't. . .we need to start. It isn't that difficult to begin the process, and once begun it moves along quite quickly.
And you and I both know that realistically, THAT'S not going to happen. While there may be churches here and there with ministries, and God bless them for doing it-the bottom line is the church has had plenty of decades to step up to the plate, and it hasn't happened. I won't be holding my breath for the church to be replacing secular domestic violence shelters and services anytime soon. Just this past week in my state alone, 2 more women were murdered by their partners. So the bottom line is-in spite of the march of the man-hating lesbians haunting shelters in every corner of the universe....there will continue to be a need for secular women's shelters.
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