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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 11:29:58 PM
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Reasoning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Are you joking?
That is what someone else said to me on another thread. I put that in there in case one of you tried to use that too.
Once again the structure of the English language eludes you.
And you still haven't answered my question.
_____________________________
"...Nietzsche's lesson: we can choose not to choose." - Michel Onfray In Defense Of Atheism
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/24/2007 11:34:30 PM
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Timcp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reasoning
quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Are you joking?
That is what someone else said to me on another thread. I put that in there in case one of you tried to use that too.
Once again the structure of the English language eludes you.
And you still haven't answered my question.
Are you serious?
Some one else on another thread told me that because "adults condone to fight", then that means it is ok.
Various contact sports, such as football, I don't watch for different reasons.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 8:37:18 AM
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Reasoning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Various contact sports, such as football, I don't watch for different reasons.
This isn't answering my question. This is sidestepping it, and you've continually done it. You don't have to watch the sport to answer my question.
_____________________________
"...Nietzsche's lesson: we can choose not to choose." - Michel Onfray In Defense Of Atheism
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 9:12:30 AM
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Timcp
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Football I wouldn't have a problem with because it isn't fighting. I don't watch it for different reasons then what this thread is about.
The topic of this thread is about the UFC and whether it's Biblical or not.
< Message edited by Timcp -- 8/25/2007 9:55:34 AM >
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 10:04:27 AM
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glenn78
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I don't know Gen 32 has a pretty intense UFC bought in it.
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
In fact I think it was a killer hip take down that finally got Jacob to tap out.
25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
I am only being half way serious. I fail to see where there is a sin prohibition in the bible for competitive fighting. Proverbs are proverbs, and one should be careful when trying and draw sin prohibitions solely from there. UFC is not my cup of tea, but to nix it puts down any karate, high school wrestling, football, hockey, or any thing else that one might hurt his opponent. In fact I was on the losing end of a pretty awful chess injury. I guess I should have listened to Bible, and not "strived" against my opponent at the chess board.
God Bless
Glenn
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 10:14:21 AM
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Reasoning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Are you serious?
Some one else on another thread told me that because "adults condone to fight", then that means it is ok.
Ah, there we go, I knew you could figure it out. You didn't have all of the words in there to make your "condoning adults" phrase made no sense whatsoever.
_____________________________
"...Nietzsche's lesson: we can choose not to choose." - Michel Onfray In Defense Of Atheism
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 10:15:30 AM
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Reasoning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Football I wouldn't have a problem with because it isn't fighting. I don't watch it for different reasons then what this thread is about.
The topic of this thread is about the UFC and whether it's Biblical or not.
Well no, you've created a thread basically as to whether or not inflicting pain in sport is Biblical or not based on your own deviations. I can tell you right now, based on the usage of your scriptures you have miserably tried to use, that indeed there is fighting in other sports. When you play football, you strive to attack the ball carrier and possibly inflicting pain to make sure he doesn't come back. He gets hurt, that is a bonus because there is a less talented guy/or less experienced taking his place. In hockey, same principle applies, strive towards the puck handler.
So again I ask, based on your "logic" is physical contact in any sport Biblical?
_____________________________
"...Nietzsche's lesson: we can choose not to choose." - Michel Onfray In Defense Of Atheism
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 10:38:49 AM
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Timcp
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I created a thread about the UFC. Which shows two men "fighting" for the fun of it, as a sport. That's the point of the UFC, to fight. It's called the Ultimate Fighting Championship, it is right there in the title.
If it is Biblical, then there would be some mention of it in the Bible.
Proverbs 3:30 is from Solomon, he doesn't hand out bogus advice.
The definition of strive is to fight, quarrel, etc.
I'm not going to use "logic" because that just leads to opinion. And the title of the thread is the UFC isn't Christian, it's not Biblical.
In another thread entitled : UFC cool or not cool there was a bunch of logical responses, with a couple of good Bible verses used. But it was mostly trying to say that the UFC isn't violent.
I posted Proverbs in that thread and received no response. So I created this thread. But ironically received the same type of responses with not one mention of the Bible.
I didn't ask if it was cool or not.
I asked if it was Biblical.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reasoning
Well no, you've created a thread basically as to whether or not inflicting pain in sport is Biblical or not based on your own deviations. I can tell you right now, based on the usage of your scriptures you have miserably tried to use, that indeed there is fighting in other sports. When you play football, you strive to attack the ball carrier and possibly inflicting pain to make sure he doesn't come back. He gets hurt, that is a bonus because there is a less talented guy/or less experienced taking his place. In hockey, same principle applies, strive towards the puck handler.
So again I ask, based on your "logic" is physical contact in any sport Biblical?
< Message edited by Timcp -- 8/25/2007 11:14:12 AM >
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 10:53:40 AM
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Timcp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: glenn78
I don't know Gen 32 has a pretty intense UFC bought in it.
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
In fact I think it was a killer hip take down that finally got Jacob to tap out.
25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
I am only being half way serious. I fail to see where there is a sin prohibition in the bible for competitive fighting. Proverbs are proverbs, and one should be careful when trying and draw sin prohibitions solely from there. UFC is not my cup of tea, but to nix it puts down any karate, high school wrestling, football, hockey, or any thing else that one might hurt his opponent. In fact I was on the losing end of a pretty awful chess injury. I guess I should have listened to Bible, and not "strived" against my opponent at the chess board.
God Bless
Glenn
Are you talking about Genesis ch. 35 verses 24 and 25?
I'm saying Proverbs tells you when to fight, when someone does you harm. That's it.
When you fight, it should be to defend yourself only.
Not to hurt them, or knock them out. But this is what is done in the UFC. For example Diego Sanchez broke the facial bone of one of his opponents, using his elbow. He cut up Kenny Florians face, turned Josh Koshcheck's forehead purple using knees, cuts air supply to the brain using a choke hold, and on and on.
If they mean to hurt each other, then they shouldn't be fighting in the first place.
But yet the fighters always say "I don't mean to hurt him" and give a bunch of other reasons.
That isn't a cause to fight according to Proverbs.
< Message edited by Timcp -- 8/25/2007 11:19:19 AM >
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 11:14:02 AM
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Nesher
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If your entire idea is based on Proverbs 3:30, it might help to know you're relying on a mistranslation.
A more accurate word for riyb is "accuse" or "argue." In other words, don't pick fights or take someone to court if no real harm has been done. It is hardly used to refer to people who physically attack one another and instead generally refers to "striving with your words."
Thus, your entire belief would be based upon a false interpretation of Scripture, rendering your belief futile.
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 11:28:12 AM
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Timcp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
If your entire idea is based on Proverbs 3:30, it might help to know you're relying on a mistranslation.
A more accurate word for riyb is "accuse" or "argue." In other words, don't pick fights or take someone to court if no real harm has been done. It is hardly used to refer to people who physically attack one another and instead generally refers to "striving with your words."
Thus, your entire belief would be based upon a false interpretation of Scripture, rendering your belief futile.
If you're not going to use the Bible, then do you have a primary citation?
I quoted psalms, and exodus. Both use the word strive in conjunction with fighting.
The Bible can interpret itself.
My entire idea isn't base on Proverbs, there is another thread entitled: UFC cool or not cool.
You should read that, I gave a bunch of other reasons why it isn't Biblical. No one gave an answer to Proverbs so I created this thread.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 11:29:57 AM
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Nesher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
If your entire idea is based on Proverbs 3:30, it might help to know you're relying on a mistranslation.
A more accurate word for riyb is "accuse" or "argue." In other words, don't pick fights or take someone to court if no real harm has been done. It is hardly used to refer to people who physically attack one another and instead generally refers to "striving with your words."
Thus, your entire belief would be based upon a false interpretation of Scripture, rendering your belief futile.
If you're not going to use the Bible, then do you have a primary citation?
I quoted psalms, and exodus. Both use the word strive in conjunction with fighting.
The Bible can interpret itself.
Proverbs doesn't use it in the context of fighting at all. You're creating the context you want.
Furthermore, what do you mean "use the Bible." I'm challenging your interpretation of Scripture. I don't need to bring up another passage of Scripture to challenge what you are saying, I can simply look to the Hebrew and the context and realize that you've misinterpreted the passage.
The Exodus passage is also unique to the passage. Notice how there had to be qualification marks put within the verse - if strive always meant physical fighting, why would it need to include "striking with the fists" and "smiting" another person? By bringing up this passage, you have proven my point that riyb doesn't always mean, in fact it rarely means, physical fighting.
Can you, using proper exegesis, come back and explain to me why your interpretation is correct?
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 11:35:16 AM
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Timcp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
Proverbs doesn't use it in the context of fighting at all. You're creating the context you want.
Furthermore, what do you mean "use the Bible." I'm challenging your interpretation of Scripture. I don't need to bring up another passage of Scripture to challenge what you are saying, I can simply look to the Hebrew and the context and realize that you've misinterpreted the passage.
Can you, using proper exegesis, come back and explain to me why your interpretation is correct?
I don't have the Hebrew text, can you provide a primary citation that shows what you're saying is true?
I have the King James Bible. If you want to refute that as being "mistranslated", then you're taking away the topic of the thread.
< Message edited by Timcp -- 8/25/2007 11:42:57 AM >
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 11:38:58 AM
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Nesher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
Proverbs doesn't use it in the context of fighting at all. You're creating the context you want.
Furthermore, what do you mean "use the Bible." I'm challenging your interpretation of Scripture. I don't need to bring up another passage of Scripture to challenge what you are saying, I can simply look to the Hebrew and the context and realize that you've misinterpreted the passage.
Can you, using proper exegesis, come back and explain to me why your interpretation is correct?
I don't have the Hebrew text, can you provide a primary citation that shows what you're saying is true?
I have the King James Bible. If you want to refute that as being "mistranslated", then you're taking away the topic of the thread.
Well, I'm looking at the Hebrew text. The King James is primarily based on the Septuagint, a faulty translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek (which explains why the King James is so often inadequate in the Old Testament).
The bottom line is simply this: riyb hardly ever refers to physical fighting. In this context, it is most likely referring to verbal fighting or falsely accusing someone.
I would offer a citation, but like I said, I'm reading the Hebrew myself. I am my own citation in this instance I guess. You could, if you wanted to, look it up in a Biblical concordance. However, this won't give you the grammatical rules about context either.
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 11:46:36 AM
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Timcp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
Well, I'm looking at the Hebrew text. The King James is primarily based on the Septuagint, a faulty translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek (which explains why the King James is so often inadequate in the Old Testament).
The bottom line is simply this: riyb hardly ever refers to physical fighting. In this context, it is most likely referring to verbal fighting or falsely accusing someone.
I would offer a citation, but like I said, I'm reading the Hebrew myself. I am my own citation in this instance I guess. You could, if you wanted to, look it up in a Biblical concordance. However, this won't give you the grammatical rules about context either.
This is what I had thought. Thanks for your response though.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 11:52:52 AM
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Nesher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
Well, I'm looking at the Hebrew text. The King James is primarily based on the Septuagint, a faulty translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek (which explains why the King James is so often inadequate in the Old Testament).
The bottom line is simply this: riyb hardly ever refers to physical fighting. In this context, it is most likely referring to verbal fighting or falsely accusing someone.
I would offer a citation, but like I said, I'm reading the Hebrew myself. I am my own citation in this instance I guess. You could, if you wanted to, look it up in a Biblical concordance. However, this won't give you the grammatical rules about context either.
This is what I had thought. Thanks for your response though.
This would obviously discourage anyone from responding or dealing with you in the future. It certainly makes me weary of entering into any discussions with you. The reason is, you post a problem, the problem is answered, you do not like the answer and subsequently question it without actually bringing forth a proper challenge. An example:
You: Anything x is wrong based on Scripture w.
Someone else: Ah, but you have misinterpreted Scripture w and ignored the original language it was written in. Therefore, x cannot be wrong.
You: Do you have a citation to prove the original language says this, even though you are reading it because you know the original language? No, you don't? Then I am inherently correct. Good day.
What is the motive to debate you if you are unwilling to look the word up in a concordance or do the work yourself? What iron is to be sharpened if you simply ignore legitimate challenges to your point of view?
The fact remains - you are relying on a misinterpretation of Proverbs to support your view. Willfully relying on a misinterpretation is no different than someone to relies on zero interpretation.
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 11:55:50 AM
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Timcp
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So to some up what Christians believe so far not only from this thread but the other one as well:
1. If your conscience says no, don't do it.
2. They're trained professionals.
3. A lot of things aren't mentioned in the Bible.
4. It's a sport.
5. The word strive is mistranslated and rarely means fighting.
6. They have a family to feed.
7. It's not violence.
8. I don't think it is evil.
Well this has cleared up a lot of things, you all have been helpful. Thanks for your time, I appreciate it.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 12:06:43 PM
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Timcp
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nesher
This would obviously discourage anyone from responding or dealing with you in the future. It certainly makes me weary of entering into any discussions with you. The reason is, you post a problem, the problem is answered, you do not like the answer and subsequently question it without actually bringing forth a proper challenge. An example:
You: Anything x is wrong based on Scripture w.
Someone else: Ah, but you have misinterpreted Scripture w and ignored the original language it was written in. Therefore, x cannot be wrong.
You: Do you have a citation to prove the original language says this, even though you are reading it because you know the original language? No, you don't? Then I am inherently correct. Good day.
What is the motive to debate you if you are unwilling to look the word up in a concordance or do the work yourself? What iron is to be sharpened if you simply ignore legitimate challenges to your point of view?
The fact remains - you are relying on a misinterpretation of Proverbs to support your view. Willfully relying on a misinterpretation is no different than someone to relies on zero interpretation.
I read your response. This is an internet message board. If we are talking opinions, then people can believe however they want. If you can't provide a primary source citation for what your saying, that is your burden not mine.
I mean you're talking about the King James being based on mistranslations, that is a huge topic of sensitive issue. It opens up a whole other discussion.
I received all the responses I need.
I was curious as to why Christians think it is ok to watch two men fight. While some bikini clad ring girl shows us what round it is, to a crowd who condone cursing and violence.
I wanted to see a Biblical reason for that, and after two threads. I now know their reasons.
But to say the King James Old Testament is mistranslated, I don't know if you realize how deep of a discussion that is.
You should start your own thread on that. Don't worry I wouldn't take part in that discussion.
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 12:10:53 PM
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Reasoning
Posts: 671
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Proverbs 3:30 is from Solomon, he doesn't hand out bogus advice.
The definition of strive is to fight, quarrel, etc.
And I am not arguing this.
quote:
I'm not going to use "logic" because that just leads to opinion. And the title of the thread is the UFC isn't Christian, it's not Biblical.
HAHAHAHAH!!! WHAT!?!? Logic leads to opinion? Do you even know what logic is? This whole thread is based on your OPINION, a baseless and poorly defended OPINION!
quote:
But ironically received the same type of responses with not one mention of the Bible.
I didn't ask if it was cool or not.
I asked if it was Biblical.
And no one is arguing if it is cool or not, but your use of scripture here is poorly taken out of context therefore you are not using the lesson that is being taught by Solomon properly to the discussion at hand. You probably have a strong distaste for UFC and frantically looked for a piece of scripture that backs your opinion, which you have failed to do so.
Why am I going to look through the Bible looking for a countering argument when yours isn't even correct to begin with? I can easily counter your idea with "you're wrong".
< Message edited by Reasoning -- 8/25/2007 12:18:06 PM >
_____________________________
"...Nietzsche's lesson: we can choose not to choose." - Michel Onfray In Defense Of Atheism
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 12:13:01 PM
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Nesher
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quote:
I read your response. This is an internet message board. If we are talking opinions, then people can believe however they want. If you can't provide a primary source citation for what your saying, that is your burden not mine.
Not at all. It is the equivalent of saying a word in French means x and a Frenchman telling you that it doesn't mean x at all within a certain context. Would you ask him for a primary source? If so, do you realize the unnecessary burden you are trying to place on people just to be correct? If not, then why would you ask a Jew to provide a primary citation for something in Hebrew?
If you don't have any Lexicon's available to you, then how am I to supply proof? Regardless, you could attempt to get the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon.
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 12:15:45 PM
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Reasoning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
I was curious as to why Christians think it is ok to watch two men fight. While some bikini clad ring girl shows us what round it is, to a crowd who condone cursing and violence.
Once again, he loses an argument so he tries the guilt approach. What a poor loser.
_____________________________
"...Nietzsche's lesson: we can choose not to choose." - Michel Onfray In Defense Of Atheism
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 5:01:15 PM
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glenn78
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
Are you talking about Genesis ch. 35 verses 24 and 25?
No, I am talking about ch 32 where we see Jacob and a man, later designated as God, wrestling. I was attempting to lighten up the conversation. I am not quite sure why you are so hung up on this. If you look in Proverbs chapter 3, and yes I did use the King James Version, the context of the passage has to do with financial matters. In fact when you look at the hebrew word for strive. [Use an online tool, I would post one but I don't think it is allowed. PM me and I will send it to you] Under the King James Version with Strong Numbers you will see that the definition can also mean legal proceedings. (i.e. suing) This definition fits the context of the chapter.
I doubt what I say here will matter as you seem to have it out for UFC. I guess what I am trying to say is you have failed to provide a Biblical prohibition against combative sport, and your interpretation of Proverbs is flawed in context to the rest of the chapter.
In all seriousness, don't lose sight of the big picture. If you feel that UFC is ushering people to Hell, then reach out to them and find a way to shine a light in that area of the world.
Take care and God Bless
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 5:58:54 PM
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Kath
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quote:
So again I ask, based on your "logic" is physical contact in any sport Biblical?
quote:
I created a thread about the UFC. Which shows two men "fighting" for the fun of it, as a sport. That's the point of the UFC, to fight. It's called the Ultimate Fighting Championship, it is right there in the title.
The OP of this thread wishes to keep to the topic of the UFC, not any other contact sport. Please honor his request and stick to the topic.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Timcp
But to say the King James Old Testament is mistranslated, I don't know if you realize how deep of a discussion that is.
You should start your own thread on that. Don't worry I wouldn't take part in that discussion.
No need for that, we have a One Stop thread to discuss KJO.
The KJV Only Debate
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 6:18:28 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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From: Los Angeles
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quote:
If I'm going to listen it has to be Bible based.
Somehow I don't think you would. You already have your mind made up, no matter how many people say the same thing to you. Do you think we all got together to believe the same way..? Here's a hint: NO WE DIDN'T!!
One day when you are older and wiser you will look back on this and wonder what the whole debate was about.
Say, here's a question...If you found out your pastor or any of the leaders in the church where you attend were watching UFC and the likes of such, would you still attend..? Would you bring this same debate to them as well..? And, if you did, and they responded the same as we have been, what then would you believe..?
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: UFC not Christian, not Biblical. - 8/25/2007 6:36:01 PM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 356
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quote:
Please, don't read this as being mean, but when I hear pastors on the radio talk about witnessing to non believers or hear what my dad has to say about witnessing to my family.
Is that the non believers response is eerily the same as yours, they all say "Well, what is good for you, is good for you and what's good for me is good for me."
You are not understanding what I stated. Let me word it differently...
The Holy Spirit convicts our spirit, and directs us in the right way to go. What the Holy Spirit convicts you of (lifestyle, eating habits, sports, gambling, etc.) may not be the same He would convict me of. We are all different. Some are stronger in areas where others are weak. God knows our strengths and weaknesses.
Again, I commend you for being passionate about this, and following the Holy Spirits lead in not watching or having anything to do with UFC. God knows that is a weakness in your life. It is not a weakness in my life: I don't find myself betting/wagering on any matches leading me into gambling, I don't swear violently when I watch it, etc.~~it is pure entertainment for me, just like it is for several other posters on this thread.
And if bikini clad women holding up round signs in the ring were to cause me to sin, then that would mean I couldn't leave my house to go to the store, the mall, the beach~~scantily clad women are all over the place here in SoCal...
It is what it is. But do not tell me my beliefs about it are bordering on the secular world's beliefs, because it is not.
The Lord leads each and every one of us in differing directions. And when you have aged, and experienced more in your Christian walk, it is then when you will understand and have wisdom about such matters.
Have you had this debate at your local church..?
matthew
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"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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