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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 11:09:16 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1723
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
God is not sinful even if He causes things to take place.
KJB - lets phrase that statement honestly, OK?
God is not sinful even if He causes evil things to take place.
You live with it, bro.
God is light and in him is NO DARKNESS.
There simply must be an explanation of how evil occurs
without making God the cause of it. And there is.
quote:
Yes it is true....God does restrain evil. It is obvious He does not
restrain all evil because it is clear that we have evil in the world.
True.
God can even use the evil men to for his own purposes.
Without being the cause of it.
quote:
If God has the power to restrain all evil, and He can see the
little girl being beaten and raped by a brute, and He does nothing.....
do you find God guilty or innocent?
I don't know why God allows evil things like this to happen.
quote:
And if God does not restrain evil but could...
isnt it that He decreed it to take place?
Only in your hyper one-dimensional view of sovereignty.
You admitted God allows evil, but you just can't seem
to realize this falls under the category of God's permissive will.
quote:
I dont know how any Christian could think that any other sinful
event was more sinful than the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. It was blatant
and outright sin performed by sinful human beings.
And yet....the hand of God was personally involved in this entire sinful act.
Yes, God knew Jesus would fall into the hands of evil men.
It is prophesy and it is God decree that the blood must be shed for the remission of sins.
Christ experienced the wrath of God on the cross, but men put him there.
You think God murdered his own son?
Or you think God sacrificed his own son?
His decretive will may ordain a certain event to take place even though
His preceptive will as given in Scripture orders that the event should never occur.
Maybe I need to change my mind about your one-dimensional view of sovereignty.
Please explain exactly what preceptive will is.
quote:
God "willed" the execution of His Son while in another sense He
"did not will" it because it was a sinful thing for people to do.
You lost me on this one, friend.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 11:21:25 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1723
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quote:
KJB: And God is not evil.
Glad to hear you say it, but how can you really believe it, friend?
God is not evil but you believe he can cause evil to occur?
Depraved man is evil and can to nothing but evil?
Saved man has imputed righteousness and still does evil?
And the Evil One himself - he's only doing the evil God allows him to do?...
.....oh, sorry - only doing what God tells him to do?
Lots of evil going on with only one to blame: God!!
Isn't your statement in really "God is not evil, once-removed"?
Kind of like God has immunity from prosecution.
God has made a deal with himself: "I will be the cause of evil but not be evil."
"Somehow I will do what cannot exist in my presence."
I will originate,
orchestrate,
perpetrate,
or manipulate the evil
that occurs and my wrath against evil will not self-destruct me.
ALL IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION OF SCRIPTURE!!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 11:36:43 PM
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Carico
Posts: 532
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
KJB: And God is not evil.
Glad to hear you say it, but how can you really believe it, friend?
God is not evil but you believe he can cause evil to occur?
Depraved man is evil and can to nothing but evil?
Saved man has imputed righteousness and still does evil?
And the Evil One himself - he's only doing the evil God allows him to do?...
.....oh, sorry - only doing what God tells him to do?
Lots of evil going on with only one to blame: God!!
Isn't your statement in really "God is not evil, once-removed"?
Kind of like God has immunity from prosecution.
God has made a deal with himself: "I will be the cause of evil but not be evil."
"Somehow I will do what cannot exist in my presence."
I will originate,
orchestrate,
perpetrate,
or manipulate the evil
that occurs and my wrath against evil will not self-destruct me.
ALL IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION OF SCRIPTURE!!
Isaiah 59:16, "I the Lord created the destroyer to reak havoc..."
God has complete control over Satan. He can bind Satan in an instant if he wants to. So when he doesn't stop Satan, Satan is doing as God wants him to. Yes siree, God is sovereign, not Satan. So Arminians don't believe in a sovereign God, they believe in a hippie type of love that God gives. So until they understand God's wrath, they will never understand God's love. Never. So scripture does not contradict itself. It's Arminians who have a completely different view of God than scripture tells us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 11:47:39 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1364
Joined: 12/2/2006
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john_mark,
quote:
would it not be more to correct to say that God ordains/compels the christian to sin as opposed to allow/permit his sin. to allow or permit the sin means that the idea originates outside of God and God decides whether or not to permit/allow the action.
I dont know of all the best words to use.
It is obvious to the both of us that evil exists.
I think it is obvious to the both of us that God allows evil.
I think it is also obvious to the both of us that God can and does restrain evil at times.
It seems that we must come to the conclusion that since God permits evil, He must in some way desire it to exist.
If He did not desire it to exist, it would not exist.
quote:
i would agree whole-heartly with this if it included people on both sides of the debate. this position is closest to my own, as you say we are all incapable of seeing all the invisible powers of God. would you not agree?
Well, it does include people on both sides. None of us are able to see all the invisible forces at work so it is impossible for us to claim that people have free-will.......unless.......
Unless what?
Unless we are told in Scripture that the human will can be manipulated, controlled, held in bondage, blinded, given a spirit of stupor, a slave to sin, hardened......and so on.
With Scripture, we that cannot see the invisible now have something to go on.
I cant see all the invisible forces just like you, the Arminian, the free-willer...or anyone else.
But we can count on the reliable Word of God.
If Scripture says God caused prophets to lie be sending them a spirit.......it obviously concludes that mans will is not free from His influence to cause people to lie.
How He does it in every solitary detail I just do not know.
But I know this, it shoots free-will right down the drain.
Human will I can begin to contemplate....but a human free-will?
Scripture is clear that it does not exist.
Since humans are sinners (which is evil) it would be best to call it an 'evil-will' instead of 'free-will'.
quote:
in light of what is being talked about, God being the first cause and so on...
scripture says that God hardened pharoah's heart. would it seem right to say that without God's hardening, pharoah's actions could have gone either way.
I am not sure on that. That is something we could speculate I suppose.
People seem to think Adam had the ability to choose not to sin.
It is hard to come up with a solid conclusion to such a speculation because all we really know is that Adam sinned.
It seems that since God already planned to save people from a lost world before He actually made the world, it would be harder for me to think Adam could not have sinned.
Some things we just cant really know though and I am not going to sit here and pretend I know everything.
quote:
what i am driving at is that even though pharoah was unsaved, for God's purpose to be fulfilled God had to intervene/compel pharoah's actions, his sin nature in and of itself was not sufficent to guarentee his rebellion.
I think I see your point.
I think the quantity of times God sent Moses to the king was more due to the fact that God wanted to demonstrate His mighty power.
God even told Moses several times that He would harden his heart so that he would not let the people go.
God still commanded them to tell the Pharaoh to let the people go even though God willed to harden his heart so he would not let them go. Go figure? Hey....its His creation not mine!
The only thing I can come up with is that God desired to give an awesome display of His power.
I am not sure how else it would or could have happened.
I would think that God could deliver one swift blow of any kind to the Pharaoh to break him if that is what God wanted. One swift blow would have been enough for the king to cave in and it appears that God just did not want it that way.
Here is some of the text;
Exo 4:21 NIV The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exo 7:2-5 NIV You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. {3} But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, {4} he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. {5} And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."
Exo 10:1 NIV Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them
Exo 11:10 NIV Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.
Exo 14:4 NIV And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this.
Exo 14:8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.
Exo 14:17-18 NIV I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. {18} The Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen."
I know one thing I bet we agree on..........Egyptians and their wills were not much of a match for God!
God just hardened his heart as He seemed fit.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/5/2008 11:51:08 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1364
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Carico,
Glad to see you here. 
You made some pretty good points there.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 12:00:19 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1364
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied.
"Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?
You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.
But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."
The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
So what do you think?
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 12:21:36 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1364
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
After reading that small portion of Job....what do you think?
Why dont you read on to see what happens?
It looks to me as if Satan is unleashed by God.
Satan is commanded by God not to lay his hand on Job.
Do you think Satan can lay his hand on God unless God permits it?
God has just placed everything that Job has into the hands of Satan.
Do you have an issue with that?
Why dont you see what Satan inflicted;
"The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"
It looks to me like Satan stirred up the wills of the Sabeans.
I have this feeling that Sabeans will be held guilty for any sin they have done.
While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"
Fire from God huh?
Do you suppose that somehow these people knew that God was in control of all things even though it was a secondary cause that was let loose?
While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"
Now we have Satan stirring up Chaldeans to raid.
Remember the first post?
Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?
As if all of that was not enough....his sons and daughters have also been given over to the terror of Satan.
While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, "Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house, when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"
Job had the correct answer that you just do not want to grasp.
Here is what Job said in response to all of that terror;
Then he fell to the ground in worship and said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised."
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
Job was certain that everything was in the hands of the Lord.
The Lord gave.....and the Lord has taken away.
I do the same sort of thing.
I worship God and I know His mighty hand is no match for me.
All He has to do is stretch out His hand and I am history!
All He has to do is stretch out His hand and my entire family of which I hold so dear to my heart would vanish.
I am aware of these things and I still worship the Lord.
He gives and He takes as everything belongs to Him to do with as He wills.......not as I will.
It is His creation and not mine or yours.
I say no matter what happens may the name of the Lord be praised!
Is that ok?
Notice the final text in Job 1;
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
Thank you;
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 12:39:39 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1723
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Another example of the wicked able to repent:
Then God saw what they did and how they turned
from their evil ways, he had compassion and did
not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. Johah 3:10.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 1:56:20 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
The problem you both constantly try to solve is trying to distance God from sin. It is as if He was the cause of something sinful to happen you think He would be evil. Nothing is further from the truth. When God is distanced in that manner from sin, the question needs to be asked "why"? Again, it's not the holiness of God in question, how could it be?... but, it is the freewill of man. To the freewillers, God's sovereignty is denied in salvation and even in ultimate responsibility for sin. They will be the kings of their own lives regardless of the fact God claims responsibility for it all.
quote:
God is not sinful even if He causes things to take place. Absolutely, who dares declares God sinful for ordaining the murder of Jesus Christ at the hands of men?
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: -Acts 2:23
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. -Act. 4:27-28
To not accept God's responsibility for sin is illogical in the face of Scripture which demands that He is the first cause of all while always remaining holy.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 2:06:06 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2146
For the Reformed Ones:
Lets say I have repented.
My confidence comes from the fact that my mind and heart has
definitely and radically and permanently (sorry Free) changed
(my wanter has changed, as was mentioned before).
My relationship with sin has changed (sanctified), and
my relationship with God has also changed (justified).
In turning away from sin (darkness) I have turned toward God (light).
If this is true and from the heart, the Bible says God will save me.
---> Alright so far?
OK. Is this "salvation" something in the future you speak of?...perhaps, the glorified spiritual body's entrance into God's holy heaven? If the above refers to now, why would you not consider yourself "saved" at present?
quote:
How would I know whether I have made a personal decision
to repent vs. I have made a decision caused by God?
How can my mind perceive it was God that caused it?
Is it because it happened, because it works, because it is permanent?
You know because Scripture says it is so - that God ordains to eternal life, that God is the Author of your faith, that faith and repentance are gifts from God, that it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. That should be enough to make your mind perceive that it was God who caused these "good works" in you.
quote:
IF I COULDN'T do any of it, and God did all of it, how do I know God did it? Because He says He did.
quote:
Because you know it could be me, or God, or my imagination. If all that you said above concerning your "new" life is true, why would you think it "your" own doing? Is not God more faithful than you? Is not God more powerful to keep you than you are yourself?
quote:
Where I see this "all God, no man" theology going is we cannot know we are saved until we see Him, because we can never know if
it is us or God. We sin after we are saved, don't we? It is only "all" God with regard to being "born from above" because you cannot change your "desperately wicked and deceitful above all things" heart on your own. No one says that man does not cooperate in his sanctification.
God says we can know. First, we see the changed life you described above. Second, it is said of the Holy Spirit that "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" Third, God says He "will give us a heart to know Him."
quote:
If you all are comfy with not knowing you are saved until you get to heaven, that's fine. Of course, no one here has ever said this is the case so you have no reason to believe this is an RT tenet.
quote:
I firmly believe God wants us to know we are saved IN THIS LIFE. And, I would firmly agree with you.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 2:22:46 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Lets say you have a policeman that is fully armed.
The policeman is sitting in his squad car and notices a brute man beating and raping a small helpless girl.
The policeman is armed and as such is more powerful than the brute man.
The policeman could very easily step in to prevent (restrain) the evil brute from beating and raping the small girl.......but the policeman just sits and does nothing at all.
Would both of you claim that the policeman is guilty or innocent for his lack of action?
How do you see God in that way?
if i could comment, this example doesnt seem to fit the picture of God that you are presenting. If God is the first cause of sin then in this scenario God would compel the brute to rape the girl while He watched and did nothing.
your example presents a view that the brute decided on his own to do evil and God chose not restrain him. your example shows the evil originating in the brute.
No, you simply do not understand what primary and secondary causation means. KJB's example is precisely correct. How is God not ultimately "responsible" since He could have, in fact, stopped the evil from occurring? Man's "freewill" is not the answer since God has restrained evil in the past, we know that...so, why not now?
Another example, how is a man less responsible if he could save a baby from a burning house but decided to permit the baby to burn..?
God is the prime cause of the world, and everything that happens in it. But implicit in this is the distinction between primary and secondary causality.
While God is always the first or primary cause, God is not the one who does the deed - the sinner is and that makes the sinner the secondary cause. Therefore, God is responsible but not blamable as we see in Luke 22:22, Matt 26:24, Mark 14:21, Acts 2:23, 4:27-28, Matt 18:7, James 1:13-14, Isa 45:7. God always remains the epitome, the highest standard - of holiness.
Scripture tells us that our words, steps, movements, hearts abilities and gifts are from God, and God can cause us to make willing decisions.
The King’s heart is in the hand of the Lord; He directs it like a watercourse wherever He pleases. -Proverbs 21:1 See also Ezr 1:1, 6:22, Acts 17:28, 1 Cor 4:7
A man’s steps are directed by the Lord. How then can anyone understand his own way? –Proverbs 20:24 See also Pr 16:1,9
I know, O Lord, that a man’s life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps. –Jeremiah 10:23
For dominion belongs to the Lord and He rules over the nation. -Psalms 22:28 See also Job 12:23, Dan 4:34-35, Acts 14:16, 17:26
God does not directly do evil and is never, in Scripture, blamed for evil even though God caused evil events to happen. I can give verse after verse showing God causing evil to happen. God brings evil and destruction to judge sin and people. He uses evil people, demonic force, and nature to bring his judgment. Even so Scripture tells us God always remains the epitome, the highest standard - of holiness.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 2:45:17 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Manna, Scripture doesn't even hint at the idea of puppets on a string. And the "alternative" to puppets isn't "dead lifeless, useless chunks of wood", as you assume, but a living human being free to express his love and devotion to his Savior.
True, Scripture doesn't hint at the idea of puppets. But, it does describe a condition far worse - that of dead "dried bones"; and dead "dried bones" have no ability to assert their freewill to "choose" for Christ.
Nor are these dead "dried bones" about to express love and devotion to Jesus Christ...at least not according to God's standards they won't. Their own standards, their own faith, their own repentance, sure...but, never God's.
Freewill theology presents a system whereby all good is not from God, people are capable of choosing good without Him. This, though, would contradict Rom 8:28, among other verses, “and we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him”.
quote:
Manna, just like KJB, you are very confused as to what free will is all about. You unfortunately view free will as some ability to change your invironment by willing it to change. That would be magic, which free will isn't. It's a lot easier to change the environment then it is to change one's own desperately wicked and deceitful heart to one capable of "honoring" God which is the theology of the freewillers. I hope this really helps you to understand God’s sovereignty, FG.
Oh and btw, just a rhetorical question since your spiritual ethics prevent you from replying as per Titus 3:10. Why then do your spiritual ethnics not prevent you from posting to other heretics? Or could it be it's not your ethnics which prevent you but something else? But, as I said...simply rhetorical.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 6:24:50 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1723
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
john_mark,
quote:
in light of what is being talked about, God being the first cause and so on...
scripture says that God hardened pharoah's heart. would it seem right to say that without God's hardening, pharoah's actions could have gone either way.
KJB - did you know if you study the hardening of Pharaoh what you will find?
God hardened it several times.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart several times.
A couple times we don't know who did it.
If God was the sole cause of Pharaoh's hardening, why does
the Bible tell us Pharaoh did it to himself?
Oh, yeah, Pharaoh did it to himself because God made him.
Was one of God's decrees continual confusion through his Word?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 6:49:22 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1515
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
How can someone repent when they don't believe?
One need not believe to repent, SH.
They are separate events and believing depends on repentance.
In my mind, repentance without believing is not biblical repentance. The change of mind that is biblical is a change of mind about God and thus about the true nature of sin. One cannot repent from sin if it is not seen for what it really is – God dishonoring. The only way we can see sin as God dishonoring is if we see something of who God is through the gospel. If I don’t believe the gospel I will not truly repent of my sin and fly to God. Repentance is mainly a change of mind concerning God.
quote:
We don't see much about repentance in evangelism today
and this is a source of much false assurance I'm afraid.
I agree with you wholeheartedly here. I believe one reason is the message that allows “easy believism” which produces surface and false repentance (the 2nd and 3rd soils demonstrate this in the parable of the sower and the soils). Repentance that is not tied into genuine believing will always be spurious.
quote:
Our ability to believe depends on the change of mind that repentance is.
Repentance is not produced in a vacuum. If it is true repentance it is because God has revealed Himself through His word and the true nature of man’s condition and position before God is seen. Man has nothing to repent about if he does not see the true nature of God first.
quote:
You can do the word study. Its the Greek "metanoia", meaning
"a change of mind, a turning from sin".
It certainly IS possible for a sinner to repent. Do the word searches.
There are several examples.
See Isa 55:7 if you don't think the wicked can repent.
Thank God the wicked repent. I am a testimony of just that – a wicked person who repents and believes. Thank God that He saves us from our God dishonoring attitudes, thoughts and actions by giving us light to see the truth in His word which gives us the heartfelt desire to humbly repent and believe.
quote:
quote:
How can someone turn from sin to God if they do not believe that
God is the most valuable treasure - which is revealed in the gospel?
Firs of all they can believe this.
People believe unto salvation as the are given light to see the glory of Christ in the gospel.
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Do you realize that most unregenerate people actually believe there is a God and a heaven and hell but are unable to believe the gospel and be saved?
Yes, I realize this with soberness. This reality drives me to prayer.
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Its not what you believe thats important, it who you believe.
The theology of saved to believe causes you to think this way.
No, this is not what causes me to think the way I do. There is a balance between salvation dependent upon believing and believing dependent upon God giving light to see the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus. Salvation is being justified by faith (believing). Therefore salvation is dependent upon man repenting and believing (conversion). This is an act that man is responsible for in order to be saved. The problem with fallen man is that he refuses to understand the gospel and therefore rejects it as foolishness. It is not until the God who spoke light into existence at the dawn of creation shines in our hearts the light of the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus (2 Cor 4:6) that we are able to see the glory of God and thus see our shameful God dishonoring sinfulness and thus have a genuine desire to repent from sin and fly to God.
A side note concerning your statement: “It’s not what you believe that is important, it is who you believe.” – I agree that it is Who you believe upon that really matters. But this kind of belief only comes through understanding and believing facts about Him found in the word of God. What you believe about the Lord Jesus is very important, for if you have the “what” wrong, you are believing upon the wrong “person”. In other words, we are led to the person of the Lord Jesus Christ through “what” we read/hear about Him. The physical means that God uses to bring us to believe upon the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ is through what the word of God says about Him. What we read about Christ testifies to us who Christ is and therefore is of utmost importance.
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me (John 5:39 NASB95)
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 8:06:16 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6683
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
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Your answer fails to face the issue you created with your analogy. The brute was demonstating free will when he assaulted the girl.
The answer fails nothing. The man was clearly demonstrating evil.
It does not conclude one way or another that he was able to resist his own evil will and desires. It does not conclude he was free from the power of satan, God, spirits, and he was absolutely not free from his own sinful nature.
Your analogy demonstrates his free will.
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You accept the "puppet theology" analogy.
Yes, I do. You are the one of the main persons in this forum that constantly and consistantly push the puppet theology concept on the Calvinists in here. You do this even though we have constantly and consistantly told you that we understand people are people and not puppets.
I do because you agree with it. Why is that a problem for you? The question to you remains: who is pulling your strings when you stin?
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The thing is you do not let up and you do not cease to push puppet theology on us. So ok...I will live with it. I wont even fight it anymore!
Since you agree with it, why were you even "fighting" it? I wasn't aware that you were "fighting" it, since you've always agreed with it, along with others reformists.
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Puppet theology may not be perfect, but it is much better than your alternative.
Well, since you agree you are a puppet, which function only through its puppeteer or master, the question remains: who is pulling your strings when you sin? Since you accept puppet theology, you must face and answer this question.
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If so, your "policeman" who represents God fails to demonstrate your own position, since the policeman in your analogy was allowing someone else to express their own free will.
If the policeman in my analogy represents God, an Armininan or free-will thought pattern cannot escape the fact that God stood still and did nothing when He had the power and could of stopped the evil. The Arminian or free-willer has to come up with an answer as to why He did not save the little girl when He could have.
Neither the FWer nor Arminian has any problem with God allowing evil to occur. What you continue to miss is that in your own analogy God is NOT the first cause of the assault. The brute was, as john_mark also recognized.
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It leaves them in the same boat as a Calvinist thought pattern which means if you are going to call someone guilty for causing evil, it is just as proper to call someone guilty for having the power to stop evil but not stopping it.
You simply fail to understand your own analogy. The policeman wasn't "causing" the assault. He simply didn't stop it. The brute was the first cause of the asault, which contradicts your own theology.
That's why you need to go back to the drawing board and try to figure out what you even believe.
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It just leaves both sides in the same boat regarding evil and trying to blame God for it.
Not at all. Your own analogy has the brute as the first cause of evil, not God. You have contradicted yourself and you don't even know it.
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Let me be clear, I dont blame God for evil.
If the policeman were forcing the brute to assault the girl, the policeman would be the first cause of the evil. Your theology claims that God is the first cause of everything. Don't you see the contradiction between your own analogy and your own theology?
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If the policeman in the same analogy represents God, a Calvinistic thought pattern does not conclude that the man has free-will. Any question on free-will is not even answered in the analogy. The only thing you can see is that a man is doing evil and God still did not step in to stop the evil.
You completely miss the issue you created by your analogy. Your theology claims that God is the first cause of everything. How is the policeman the "first cause" of the assault? He isn't. He allowed the assault. That is quite different. Your own analogy shows that the brute is the first cause of evil, as FW claims. Your analogy has done FW a favor. Thanks.
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So the Calvinist is stuck with the same sort of question. Why does God permit evil?
No, you are stuck with the question: who pulls your strings when you sin?
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My point in the analogy was to show that even a free-will point of view does not distance God from evil.
The FW position has never even tried to, so you have no point here. Your analogy still fails to prove your theology, and in fact, demonstrates that God is not the first cause of evil.
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Evil exists because God has decreed it to exist. You cannot escape that.
Why do you think I've denied that? By decree, He has allowed evil to exist. That does not make him the first cause of it. Just as your policeman was not the first cause of the evil. The brute was. Who had free will, which he expressed.
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If your "puppet theology" were correct, the policeman would be "pulling the strings" of the brute, and therefore, the "first cause" of the assault.
That is not true. You need to read more of my posts and attempt to understand them.
You claim that God is the first cause of everything. How is your policeman the first cause of the assault when all he did was allow it to happen?
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So, who WAS pulling the strings of the brute in your own analogy? If not himself, from his own free will, then by whom?
You should have noticed that the analogy did not answer that. The only thing you could see is that a brute was doing evil. See, it looks as if invisible and hidden things are impossible for you to observe.
A cop out answer, for sure. You failed to answer the question: who was pulling the strings of the brute? Clearly the policeman (God) wasn't.
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Your answer fails to deal with the issue you created. The brute had free will to do what he wanted to do. Since you view the policeman as God, who is the puller of strings, your analogy fails to support your own view. Only if the policeman forced/compelled the brute to commit the assault would he be the first cause of the assault. As your own analogy demonstrates quite well, the brute was the first cause of the assault. And the responsibility and accountability falls completely and solely on the brute, not the policeman. However, legally, the policeman, as upholder of the law, would be considered an accessory to the crime for not performing his legal duties to prevent and stop crime. That would make him guilty as well.
That is the main point of the analogy.
Yet, you claim I don't read your posts!
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How does the Arminian or free-willer remove God from guilt when He could have stepped in and saved the little helpless girl?
Because He isn't the "first cause" of it. In your analogy, the brute was the first cause, and from our legal system, the policeman would be a secondary cause, by permitting it. However, since God is sovereign, we don't our legal system to God regarding guilt. He knows the whole picture. We don't.
But still, your analogy doesn't have the policeman as the first cause of the assault. So, your own analogy contradicts your own theology that God is the first cause of everything. Your analogy demonstrates that free will is the first cause of evil.
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The point is that God must be involved with evil in some way in any system.
That wasn't your point at all. You don't even know what your own analogy demonstrates!
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Calvinists do not blame God and nor do they say He is guilty even if He was to cause something evil.
There's your faulty analysis. The policeman didn't cause anything. He simply permitted it, which is a FW view, not a calvinistic view. God never causes evil.
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Since none of the "people in here" have claimed anything close to that, I suggest you read our posts more closely. Free will is nothing more than choosing between available options. Do you want to deny that?
Like the lying prophets?
What does your sidestepping question have to do with answering my question to you about denying what free will is?
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Quite true. So, puppet, who is pulling your strings when you sin"
Man that is so cute!
Is that your final answer?
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If you really wanted the answer you would pay attention to the posts.
I've been paying attention and notice that you do not anwer my questions, yet insinuate that you do.
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You have already made it clear to me that the answer I give is no good.......even though you dont remember where to look. For some reason I dont think you really want answers and you certainly dont want mine. You are more interested in teaching all about your powerful will and the powerful will of men.
You keep sidestepping my questions. What I think of your answers should have no effect on your willingness to give one. Since we already disagree theologically, why are you so concerned about my opinion of what your answers might be? That doesn't make any sense.
I think the real issue here is that you are afraid to answer my questions. You have readily agreed that your theology is akin to puppetry, in which God pulls your strings.
so the question remains: who pulls your strings when you are sinning. That is a very basic and fundamental question that you need to answer.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 8:11:42 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 1723
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
In my mind, repentance without believing is not biblical repentance.
Could you show me where Scripture says this is true?
Could you tell me why repent and believe are different
words with different meanings?
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The change of mind that is biblical is a change of mind about
God and thus about the true nature of sin.
I thought repentance had more to do with sin than God.
What do we repent from - sin or unbelieving?
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The only way we can see sin as God dishonoring is if
we see something of who God is through the gospel.
I think you are right in that the gospel convicts many.
But they cannot believe until they have been forgiven through repentance.
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If I don’t believe the gospel I will not truly repent of my sin and fly to God.
Sorry, but I think its just the opposite: we cannot believe until we repent.
Its the same "saved to believe" theology that is exactly backwards.
But no worries - I understand how your theology makes you see it this way.
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Repentance is mainly a change of mind concerning God.
I think a word study on repentance is in order.
From Vines:
"to perceive afterwards", to change one's mind or purpose", and always,
except in Luke 17:3,4 of "repentance" from sin. (Even Luke 17 is about sin.)
From Mounce's:
"Both noun and verb denote a radical, moral turn of the whole person away
from sin and toward God."
When we turn from sin we are simultaneously turning toward God, but
the things of God and the message of the cross is still foolishness
until God enables our hearts to believe.
I do not think turning from sin/turning to God = believing. Sorry.
But I do think it starts with man recognizing his sin state - its all he is able to do.
In a nutshell: we repent, God does the rest.
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I agree with you wholeheartedly here. I believe one reason is the
message that allows “easy believism” which produces surface and false
repentance (the 2nd and 3rd soils demonstrate this in the parable of the
sower and the soils).
Repentance that is not tied into genuine believing will always be spurious.
Amen, SH.
We come to the cross with our pride broken and in humility, not in pride
over some decision we made, as if a little Jesus would make our life better.
Christianity is in a sad state today because of false teaching about salvation.
I truly believe Satan has a firm hold and many are deceived.
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Man has nothing to repent about if he does not see the true nature of God first.
I agree with Free here.
Romans 1 clearly tells us man is without excuse and has a certain knowledge of God.
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RWE: See Isa 55:7 if you don't think the wicked can repent.
SH: Thank God the wicked repent. I am a testimony of just that – a wicked
person who repents and believes. Thank God that He saves us from our
God dishonoring attitudes, thoughts and actions by giving us light to see the
truth in His word which gives us the heartfelt desire to humbly repent and believe.
Well according to KJB and others here, repentance is a righteous work
which cannot be accomplished by unregenerate man.
Do you agree with this? Or do you agree with me that we repent while we are
filthy sinners wallowing the the mudpit of sin?
Its the unsaved who repent and believe, not the saved.
[quote RWE: The theology of saved to believe causes you to think this way.
SH:There is a balance between salvation dependent upon believing and
believing dependent upon God giving light to see the glory of God in the
face of Christ Jesus.
I don't totally disagree here.
My only amendment would be that believing depends on a heart able to receive the message,
the "good soil" if you will. Only the repentant heart can be in a condition to receive.
I guess we will just disagree on who can decide to repent.
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Therefore salvation is dependent upon man repenting and believing (conversion).
Do you think believing = conversion?
I do not. I believe conversion is the act of God in which the man is born
again, made a child of God and immediately put on the road to sanctification.
This particular and supernatural act of God which is the centerpiece of
our salvation is predicated on repentance and faith.
Repentance and believing take place in the flesh and cannot be trusted
until we have actually experienced conversion. THEN we know we
have repented and believed.
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This is an act that man is responsible for in order to be saved.
Please tell me how God is just by holding a man
responsible for something he (the man) has no control over?
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It is not until the God who spoke light into existence at the dawn
of creation shines in our hearts the light of the glory of God in the face
of Christ Jesus (2 Cor 4:6) that we are able to see the glory of God and
thus see our shameful God dishonoring sinfulness and thus have a genuine
desire to repent from sin and fly to God.
Sorry, but this is just more "saved to believe" theology.
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“It’s not what you believe that is important, it is who you believe.”
– I agree that it is Who you believe upon that really matters. But this kind
of belief only comes through understanding and believing facts about Him
found in the word of God.
I was really talking about after we are saved and whether Jesus becomes our Lord.
Thanks for the response.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/6/2008 8:13:42 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6683
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
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Why would you consider the fact stated in Romans 1 that "everything that is known about God" has been made evident by Him wouldn't be the "aid of the Holy Spirit"?
Because what the scriptures says is that men are responsible to God and deserve His wrath because they have suppressed the truth of Him found in creation.
That wasn't my question. It was why don't you consider that what God has made evident to mankind would be from "the aid of the Holy Spirit"?
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Do you disagree that Cornelius was unregenerate and an unbeliever at the beginning of acts 10?
Do you disagree that he reverenced God and prayed continually?
Do you disagree that God heard his prayers?
Do you disa | | |
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