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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/14/2007 10:44:44 AM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1084
Joined: 4/29/2005
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quote:
So a teen today who wants to go to med school, then decides to do something that can't be removed or covered that the interviewers are going to see as radical... they will never get the opportunity
Oh.
In our educational system (and everywhere else) discrimination based on appearance (or anything else) is illegal, and any interviewer that took such action would be in violation of our convention of human rights and our constitution. Students are not chosen for something like attitude (radical-ness). It's all about grades and accomplishments - very mathematical, and if someone less qualified were chosen, the school would be in deep trouble on discrimination charges.
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/14/2007 11:39:39 AM
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annie611
Posts: 6
Joined: 8/7/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: VincentGrayson
quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
I'm not sure that it IS delusional.
Keep in mind that by the time young-man-with-piercings-and-tattoos is establishing himself as a doctor or lawyer, the adult society will be made up of then-middle-aged women and men like the OP's daughter, who don't really mind the look in the slightest.
When 'kids' grow up into adults, we won't be the adults with whom they will be dealing... they will be. That society will shift and accommodate its own members. It is us who will be marginalized.
Your assumptions may or may not come true. I don't think it is wise to go ahead and get a bunch of visible tattoos and piercings, with the thought that they will be more accepted in the future. I am a lawyer and I have never come into contact with another lawyer, judge, or clerk that had a visible tattoo or piercing (other than an ear).
quote:
Or maybe they wouldn't test positive, because all the upper crust kids with money also know that an occasional pot smoker will not turn up positive on a drug test unless they are tested within 12 hours or so of using.
I know this is OT, but a single use will show up in urine up to 14 days following the use and up to 90 days in hair.
I can tell you from personal experience that it's long gone well before 2 weeks for non-habitual users.
Thank you for confirming this. This is a little off subject, but good info for all parents to have. I had an issue with my son and felt the need to drug test him. For the shock value, I took him to the local detox center for the testing. They told me that unless he was smoking pot almost every day or unless I caught him within about 14 hours, I was wasting my money testing him. They advised me that if I suspected he had used, I should bring him right away. That was the only way to catch him with a urine or mouth swab test. Possibly blood work or hair folicle testing would pick it up, but noone uses that way of testing. Even for jobs, they use urine or mouth swab.
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/14/2007 11:42:46 AM
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Royal.Fortress
Posts: 2249
Joined: 8/11/2005
From: Ontario
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quote:
ON the other hand, piercings show a lack of judgement and a lack of planning for the future. These are skills that are taught and learned.
Ouch. I take serious issues with this! I am 23, in my sixth year of university, married for a year, and graduated high school at the top of my class. I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but to put some things in perspective - I have a nostril piercing! And a tattoo! I actually threw around the nose ring idea for several months before deciding I wanted to get it. I wouldn't say that having piercings shows a lack of judgement and lack of planning for the future. I was always and still am a very future-oriented person. My whole high school career I was looking toward the future at my career path - it didn't stop me from getting a tattoo in a place that is easily covered. I am almost and RN now and have met many who have facial piercings.
Hope,
I hung out with the 'weird kids' in high school too! I really had an extreme dislike for cookie-cutter kids, so I chose to hang out with the more colourful (  ) gang. Most of the 'punks' and other kids I hung out with were very straight-edge and were the nicest people in the world - just because I hung out with people who looked different didn't mean that I chose the ones who were into drugs and drinking. In fact, none of my friends did either and were normally involved in youth group! I think getting to know these kids a bit better might help you to see past their outside differences. I experienced this personally. When I met my now DH (we were 16), I wore big skateboarding pants and boy t-shirts, had super short died hair and about 8 ear piercings! I got my tattoo shortly before we started 'dating'. I think his parents were terrified of me! LOL They didn't discourage him from seeing me, however, and had me over lots to do things with the family and got to know me a bit better - I even began attending church again due to their influence on me! We are quite close now and they don't see me as being 'weird' any more, I'm just Kim!
_____________________________
Kim
my blog -> kim thru the looking glass
 Proud member of the Moo Club
<- My beautiful baby girl!
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/14/2007 11:44:10 AM
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SteveSund
Posts: 559
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: VincentGrayson
I can tell you from personal experience that it's long gone well before 2 weeks for non-habitual users.
To be fair, it depends on the test that is used and how it is being administered. I know some chronic uses that beat some of the tests. The newer ones are more sensitive. I know this from working in a rehab clinic and having a sister who is a lab-tech.
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/14/2007 11:50:32 AM
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SteveSund
Posts: 559
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
In our educational system (and everywhere else) discrimination based on appearance (or anything else) is illegal, and any interviewer that took such action would be in violation of our convention of human rights and our constitution. Students are not chosen for something like attitude (radical-ness). It's all about grades and accomplishments - very mathematical, and if someone less qualified were chosen, the school would be in deep trouble on discrimination charges.
Where do you live? In the US, discrimination is illegal based upon certain protected categories defined by state and federal law. For the most part they are:
-Gender (though it depends on the job or activity).
-Age (same as above).
-Disability (same as above).
-Religion.
-Race.
There are others, but these are the main ones. Body piercing/tattoos are not a protected class and a med school could discriminate on this basis. I think it would be wrong and foolish for them to do so, but they could.
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/14/2007 12:38:07 PM
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JuliaHop
Posts: 615
Joined: 4/11/2005
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SteveSund beat me to my question.
In the United States it is legal to set dress and hair standards. The US military has a definite code in regards to tattoos. Many employers limit the number of piercings that an employee can wear while working on their food service or sales floor. Hair length and styles are also regulated by many employers. Public schools institute uniform dress codes that include what color you might dye your hair, the type of piercings permitted, etc...
Tattoos and body piercings.
From a personnel publication discussing the legality of dress codes:
quote:
Many employees also mistakenly believe that they have a right to show tattoos and body piercings in the workplace. While tattoos and piercings may be examples of employee self-expression, they generally are not recognized as indications of religious or racial expression and, therefore, are not protected under federal discrimination laws. Accordingly, as with most personal appearance and grooming standards, you have wide latitude to set policy regarding tattoos and body piercings.
Found at: http://www.ppspublishers.com/biz/dresscode.htm
The following is from a web site that has posted an article from the New York Law Journal:
quote:
It is generally recognized that employers are free to set reasonable dress codes and grooming standards that are business-justified and applied in a nondiscriminatory manner.
In the case of individuals with tattoos and piercings, there is no federal or state law that affords them explicit protection from employment discrimination on the basis of their appearance. Employees in such cases have met with limited success in trying to establish a connection between their body art and a protected class such as religion, gender or national origin.
Found at: http://employeerightsatty.blogspot.com/2005_12_01_archive.html
There are several legal cases cited in the above article.
_____________________________
For God so loved the World, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/14/2007 12:57:08 PM
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IonMoon
Posts: 977
Joined: 4/21/2005
From: The Unted State of Confusion
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
In our educational system (and everywhere else) discrimination based on appearance (or anything else) is illegal, and any interviewer that took such action would be in violation of our convention of human rights and our constitution. Students are not chosen for something like attitude (radical-ness). It's all about grades and accomplishments - very mathematical, and if someone less qualified were chosen, the school would be in deep trouble on discrimination charges.
Obviously, you have never applied to medical school (or many other grad school programs)! They base it VERY much on attitude and qualities other than academic performance.
I am in the process of applying to a clinical psych program. They are VERY competitive. First, they weed out the people who do not meet the minimum requirements. If you can get past the cut-off, they base the admissions on letters of recommendation and on what they call "fit."
Everyone who makes it through the weeding out process is a highly qualified student. There is often very little difference between the ones who make it in and those that don't except for their research interests, personality, etc.
For someone to prove discrimination (based on the legal criteria others have posted- piercings, sloppiness, even WEIGHT, etc not included) there has to be some blatant proof that the committee overlooked them specifically because of their race, gender, etc.
Tara P
_____________________________
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/14/2007 12:59:34 PM
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miasma
Posts: 5050
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
I would SO much rather my dd have a friend (male or female) that had a good attitude/good heart but was covered with piercings and tattoos than someone who looked great but was a bad person!
Absolutely.
How a person chooses to adorn themselves, and where (ie, a ring in the nose, as opposed to an earlobe) says nothing about who they are, character-wise.
Let people be people, be glad she's found some good friends to hang out with.
Piercings aren't forever. They are quite easily removed.
People with piercings and tattoos aren't missing "life skills." I know quite a few, the vast majority of friends, and people I know, have one or the other, or both, and many are VERY successful.
For the teens, it might be about fitting into a "sub-culture," but for others, it's not about the image, it's very personal, and meaningful.
These friends have given you no cause for grief - they've done the opposite, actually, so relax, and enjoy the time you have left with your teen daughter.
_____________________________
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. ~Aesop
It is not in the nature of politics that the best men should be elected. The best men do not want to govern their fellowmen. ~George E. MacDonald
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/14/2007 1:02:46 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/14/2007 1:38:13 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1328
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Perhaps who she seeks out to hang out with is a reflection of how she feels about herself and her experiences with "normal" people.
I'm someone who tends to prefer the "weirder" people to hang out with. I think some of it has to do with the fact that I tried being friends with the "normal" kids from my Sunday school. Not only were they crude, filthy-mouthed, and mean outside of Sunday School, they also turned my Junior High experience into a couple of years of emotional torture until I gave up and befriended people who were "weird". One wore kind of strange clothes, was super-hyperactive (ever seen someone turn a no-hands cartwheel just randomly while walking down the street?), one had had open heart surgery multiple times before age 3 and had some resulting physical troubles, one was a bit of a "goth", one was a mousy, shy, librarian type, and one was a Downs Syndrome girl from the special ed program that we would pick up for lunch so she could spend some time with kids her age (which we could NEVER have pulled off if we had wanted to be "cool" kids, but since we had all given up on that we had that freedom, and frankly I think we'd all say we were the better for it, because she was one of the sweetest souls you'll ever meet). Since I no longer had to work to "fit in", I started wearing long dusters (that I sewed myself), braiding one braid of hair down the side of my head with a small jeweled barrette at the end, and wearing ear clips (allergies made piercings kind of out of the question). Why? Because I thought it looked cool, but, there was probably also an element of "fine, you won't accept me? I'll do whatever I want then." Not towards Christianity and moral values and my parents, but against the social elements that had rejected me.
The thing was, though, that they were kind, loyal, fun, interesting, and real Christians. So much more so than the "clean cut" kids that I had tried to befriend, based on the fact that since they looked like good, clean cut kids (and acted like it in Sunday School) that they must BE good clean cut kids. Nothing could have been farther from the truth. My Christian walk was much safer in the company of the "geek squad" (what we called ourselves) than in the company of the shiny clean Sunday School kids. We accepted each other, we encouraged each other, and we healed each others' emotional scars. None of us drank or did drugs, which is more than I can say of the shiny clean kids from Sunday School.
To this day, I still tend to befriend the "weirder" people. There's less chance of rejection, but they're also more real, and more fun (and by "fun" I don't mean drinking or partying, I mean that most "normal" people are not generally going to invite you over for an afternoon game of Killer Bunnies, which, for the uninitiated, is a hysterically funny card game). I don't have the time or emotional energy to deal with the adult "cool kids".
I'd say get to know the kid. Encourage your daughter to invite her friends over for dinner, movie nights, game nights, etc. You just might find that despite how they look, they're a good influence. The appearance might just be a rebellion against the social environment of their school that has rejected them... not against Christian principles and moral standards. If in getting to know them you do find that they do those sort of things, then you can talk to your daughter about specific issues... not just about things that you're worried about based solely on the way they look.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/16/2007 12:13:58 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3991
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Ah...this sounds familiar:
quote:
I tried being friends with the "normal" kids from my Sunday school. Not only were they crude, filthy-mouthed, and mean outside of Sunday School, they also turned my Junior High experience into a couple of years of emotional torture until I gave up and befriended people who were "weird".
Anyway, wow...such different worlds. I am a 36yo woman with facial piercings, gauged-up earlobes, tats, etc. Call me names if you want--I've heard them all right here on this board--but that doesn't change the fact that I am a Christian who loves the Lord. I'm married to a tatted-up Christian who probably looks a lot like the "skinhead" you described earlier. We make a good living, we both have college degrees; I even work at a professional job in an office, with piercings and tattoos showing! (It's the third one over the past 10 years or so, for that matter.)
I wouldn't blink an eye at the appearance of the guy you described. Please please don't judget him until you get to know him!!! You might be missing out on something very special.
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/16/2007 12:30:17 AM
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locomom
Posts: 232
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If you want to know more about your daughter, let her invite some "odd" friends over. You will not know their character and her judgment unless you do.
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/16/2007 2:40:11 PM
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myinnerpeace
Posts: 7
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If you go back to post #18 or 19, you will see where I have OPENLY invited and kept in CLOSE contact with someone "ODD" looking. This one guy just concerns me, but we did open the door to meet him. He never showed. I sat down with her Fri night and told her we know she can make logical decisions and we are trusting her. She left out of here around 6:00 to go spend the night with her friend(the one who introduced her to this guy) and said she was going to be at the mall, movie, and end up at a "friends" house till 11:30, then they will head to friends house. Then SAT morning they were going to be at a show(concert)all day and part of the night, we said she HAD to home by midnight Sat., she actually wanted to complain! I told her that was MORE than enough time! She was leaving at 6:00 pm friday and not coming home till midnight Sat, uhh yeah! She then thought about it and said OK, that is fair. I sent her out with money and a prayer and said CALL ME! Yeah, I KNEW she was going to meet up with him, and this friends mother is CLUELESS to her daughter (sadly I know WAY to much info on this friend) but we still like her. So I really didn't know what time they would arrive back at friends house. We let her go, she called periodically checked in all was fine, no questions asked. Around 11:15 she called and said she was back at friends house, minus the friend! Once they met up with him and other people, her friend decided she wanted to go to another party with them. My dd said some things were being done that she didn't want to do.No details yet,but she ended up going to a "family friends" house and watched a movie and came home. Sat she didn't even go to the show, I even said, "Hon, are you going to go?" She said, "Nah, I'll just find something else to do", which she did. Later on we were sitting around and she said, " What was I thinking?" He was there and I saw a different side of him, but Mom, I still want you to meet him, cause I want to be a friend to him. I told her THIS WAS NOT A PROBLEM! Come to find out, her friend lied to her mom and ended up spending the night with her "friend" that happens to be a guy that is 25 years old. My daughter KNOWS lying is NOT allowed, and we are open to talking about ALL conversations, some we disagree on some we agree on. This one she clearly agreed with me on! Her friend was WAY OUT OF LINE! It is known, that lying to parents is a common practice for that family, and my dd has stated many times how GOOD her friend is at it, and how CLULESS her parents really are. I guess, my post has come full circle back to me. I was a concerned parent, got some great advice, ultimately followed my motherly instincts and let her go with trust and a prayer. She found out on her own what needed to come to surface. I do realize there are gauged, tatt'ed, pierced people out there that ARE decent. BTW, Stella do you and your DH have Children(just curious, please take no offense!) and I hope you read my previous post where we have a WONDERFUL boy that is tatt'ed, pierced who we LOVE. It was just something about this one, that made me cautious. I guess as parents we are all due to issues that we question, we can only send them out with the values that we instill in them, and hope they can make the right decision. I am just THANKFUL there is a place that "RAZZELED" parents can come to for help, venting and advice from others that have BTDT! Thank You AGAIN! What would we do without CROSSWALK???
HOPE
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/16/2007 3:03:25 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3991
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We don't have children and we don't know if we will. (That's a whole other story.)
Even though you offered to let him come over, it didn't seem like it was wholeheartedly. And the other boy you mentioned...well...it seemed like the best thing about him was that he changed how he looked after you befriended him. (I hope he changed his appearance because he wanted to, not because he felt he had to.)
The bottom line of this story is that your daughter is mature enough to go against the crowd. I don't think that has anything to do with what the crowd looks like, but rather what the crowd is doing. That's the important thing.
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/17/2007 2:02:20 AM
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myinnerpeace
Posts: 7
Joined: 11/21/2006
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quote:
And the other boy you mentioned...well...it seemed like the best thing about him was that he changed how he looked after you befriended him. (I hope he changed his appearance because he wanted to, not because he felt he had to.)
Well, he still has gauges,(however they are smaller), a tatt of his Grandma and both of his nips are pierced! He has a fo hawk(whatever it's called) and the only thing I demanded of him was that he NEVER come to my house HIGH again. I like to think of it as , we just softened the edges! He really was a lost soul, and now he has SO much to give spiritually and mentally to society and he thinks more highly of himself. I didn't request him to change his appearance just pull up his pants! He did the rest, and he is a vibrant, happy, church lovin', guitar playin, tatt'ed, pierced , gauged christian!
And you are SO right! She was mature enough to make that decision, THANK GOD! Your right, that 's what is important!
Hope
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/17/2007 10:19:51 AM
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Hazel2
Posts: 695
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I think this woman has every right to be alarmed by the looks of that young man ... he WANTS to look alarming, as three facial piercings say loud and clear. It is a disregard of social "norms" and more than that, an active rebellion against social norms and expectations. That's not to say he can't have a "good heart", whatever that is. Chances are, he's a nice enough person.
The thing is, he wants to shock! So don't climb all over this poor mother if she is shocked! On a practical level, you have to wonder what other things he has embraced in order to prove himself "not like everyone else". When I was in highschool, I fell in with a crowd of gothic types. Aside from wearing black, ripped up clothing and painting their faces white, they also did drugs, had sex liberally with eachother, and shoplifted regularly. All of those activities are highly objectionable to a parent who is trying to prepare their daughter to care for herself in the world. They were, as I remember, kids with "good hearts", but now at least one of them is in jail, one went on to be a stripper, and many others had babies out of wedlock.
What guided me through that awful time in relative safety, was God, who loved us all very much. He didn't abandon his plan for me because I lacked judgement. He won't abandon your daughter either, Innerpeace.
_____________________________
Will you please remember my husband, John, in prayer He is not saved. Thank you and God bless you!
"When two people agree on everything, one of them is not necessary"
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/17/2007 6:13:59 PM
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Hazel2
Posts: 695
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Every person constructs an image of him/herself for others through dress, hair, makeup, speech, etc. It is naive to think there is no damage to this image when you go out of your way to look unusual ... if you are a woman and wear skimpy clothing, this unfair world will judge you. If you are anyone and have a big 'ol tatoo across your forehead, yes, this unfair world will judge you, legal or not.
This is not to justify the behavior or intentions of people who conform in their looks or who take pride to project the person they want to be perceived to be. There are plenty of bad apples in khakis and polo shirts. It's just that obvious visual clues are the only hints a lot of people will ever get as to your character. Kim, you sound like a great girl, working very hard toward your goals. But surely, you must be aware that others are constantly trying to place your nose ring in the context of the rest of what they know about you (responsible, hard working, going to school, voter, taxpayer, etc). Some people probably find it confusing.
I don't think this mom has made any error in judgement to be wary of a man with three facial piercings when it comes to the wellbeing of her teenage daughter. And why should we doubt her sincerity in wanting to meet him? It sounds like she was looking to have her worries put to rest by being able to spend a little time with him. It is a pity he decided to not show up.
I would also like someone to define for me "good heart". The bible says not one of us is "good" not even one!
_____________________________
Will you please remember my husband, John, in prayer He is not saved. Thank you and God bless you!
"When two people agree on everything, one of them is not necessary"
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 9/17/2007 10:17:40 PM
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Sadey
Posts: 552
Joined: 7/25/2007
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Dear Hope,
I promise you will live through this with your sanity intact. You are in a panic mode and anyone who has raised their children to adulthood understand how you feel. Please have faith in yourself as a parent and in you daughter. Its so scarcy sometimes and we imagine the worst. Maybe she likes this young man because he is different and is shocking to her parents. It sounds like you are a great mom because when you suggested couseling she agreed and didn't balk at the idea just because it came from you, so IMHO you must be doing something right. God bless you and your daughter and it will be all right, just hang in there.
Sadeym mother of four, grandmother of 5 teenagers.
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 7/14/2008 10:03:24 AM
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mommyplus3
Posts: 56
Joined: 7/8/2008
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only you, as a parent, knows your gut feelings and instincts...and it is your job to use those in dealing with any situation at hand.
as for the tattoo/piercing thing...i, personally have probably more trust in those who have them, than the "looks like everyone else" kids. in our house we call it the "eddie haskall syndrome." i am leary of any child/teen that appears too perfect. you know the ones that are yes ma'am, yes sir all the time - the ones who are dressed perfectly for the social norm. i always look to see what is being covered up. like eddie haskall's real persona. (any leave it to beaver fans out there? ;o)
recently, i had a discussion with my 9 yo son (who, btw has an earring), as we were shopping for school clothes. he is a great kid with a good heart, but like most boys, can be a bit rambunctious. i tiold him that people (read: teachers and school admin) cut more breaks and tolerate more when you look nice. in other words, dress nicely, and you get away with more. it's a sad thing in our society that it is this way...and let me reiterate, i don't agree with it at all, but i know it is what it is...and if it is making my kids' lives easier, at least at school, then do it.
again, it is the parent's call to follow their instinct, but i just urge that people in real life not be so quick to judge...but instead look internally at the person before you decide who they are.
loves to all
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 7/14/2008 1:57:19 PM
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saraimay75
Posts: 7621
Joined: 5/11/2005
From: Wherever God plants me.
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quote:
I try not to be judgemental, she does have friends of all races, gay and straight. But I am SO DISTURBED about this.
I certainly hope you not DISTURBED because she has friends of other Races.
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God love admiration . . . I think it annoys God if you walk by the color purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it.
~Alice Walker~
http://360.yahoo.com/saraimay75
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 7/14/2008 7:27:15 PM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 2742
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Newberg, OR
Status: online
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Why does some 21 year old MAN wanna hang out with a 17 year old high school GIRL?
I think when the MAN comes over, your hubby ought to have the "We love our daughter very much, and I'll be here cleaning my gun when you get back" talk. KWIM?
He was homeless? Perhaps he makes bad choices for himself. Maybe his parents left him behind, but I'd bet money that he did it to himself. Is he still homeless, and how long has been homeless? I think you ought to ask him that stuff. A person working can save for an apartment in about 3 months depending on where you live. My hubby came to Portland with the shirt on his back, a CB radio and a tent, got a job a week later and got an apartment 3 months later because he saved his paychecks as much as possible.
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-Stina
From Sweet Grass to the Packin' House
What is her avatar?
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RE: LOOKS VERY SCARY - 7/14/2008 7:31:54 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10332
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
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Psst...this thread was resurrected from LAST September. The OP only ever posted in this thread and I doubt they're around anymore.
Just so no one expects a reply from the OP...and honestly, it's probably better to just let this thread float away as it would have in a couple months.
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I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations;
I will sing of you among the peoples.
For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
~Psalm 57:9-10~
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