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I receive answers to every one of my prayers, except in the area of finding a wife....

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ORIGINAL: Spacecat
But one thing I do know is that every Believer is Justified by their Faith alone in Christ Jesus & not by works & it is a fact that everyone is a Sinner or has Sinned...& we will Sin, it is a fact, because we all have a fallen nature or Adam's nature.....

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ORIGINAL: MowTin

John_O,


The verses in Corinthians 6 that you quote are about sex with a prostitute. Having sex is mating. It is becoming "one flesh" with the prostitute. In essence you are marrying the prostitute.

You're taking a verse that's clearly talking about sex with a prostitute and using it to defend your point on masturbation.

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It still remains that there are no verses in the Bible that deal with masturbation. There are versus that deal with many sexual issues like homosexuality, adultery, and sex with prostitutes but nothing on masturbation.

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Why is masturbation not mentioned in the Old Testament? Certainly the israelites must have masturbated but there is no mention of this "sin." M is the most common and frequent of all sex acts. There is mention of adultery, rape, sex with an unmarried woman, sex with your wife during her period, but no mention of M.

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P.S. If Spacecat is really a 39-year-old virgin then God bless him. I doubt many of us could say we were virgins when we married--especially marrying after age 30. I can understand why he gets angry--he's stressed out. M is probably the only thing keeping him sane. He's trying so hard to remain faithful to the Lord but now you make him feel guilty about his only sexual outlet.

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Read verse 18 again. The word fornication means first and foremost illicit sexual activity. Any sex outside of marriage. And as we have seen, masturbation is sex. While Paul is using a harlot here to demonstrate his point to the Corinthians that sexual sin is to be avoided (because that sin was rampant in that city and it was allowed by that city's laws so many converts to Christ didn't think it was a big deal) his point includes all sexual sin. Any sex outside of marriage is sinful.

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Leviticus 18 prohibits bestiality, incest, homosexuality adultery, and even sex during mensturation. It seems like the perfect place for God to prohibit M. So, why no mention of M there?

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Or do we recognize the sin and try to avoid it and repent when we fail?

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I'll second that with an encouragement to take a look at verse 16 of three chapters earlier in the same book. That's Leviticus 15:16. Why would a seminal discharge be simply unclean? It's not just referencing to wet dreams- in fact, it's referencing any action that brings forth a seminal discharge- intentional or not.
I'll be a flip flopper for the remainder of this section of discussion. In other words, if I think either side isn't making a good point, or could make a better one, I'll point it out. And if I know of an argument against either side's point, I'll post it. This could be fun...

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In the same chapter a woman's menstruation is said to be "unclean." Would you then conclude that menstruation is a sin? Just because the fluid is considered unclean doesn't mean that the act that produced the discharge is a sin.

Still we see a whole chapter devoted to semen and menstral flow but nothing about M. Why?

Because it's not a sin.

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Last night my wife turned me down--again. She said she was tired, fine. So, I took care of myself--fantasizing about an attractive immigrant woman who smiles and exchanges hello's with me every day as she goes around emptying trash cans in the office where I work.

Why don't I just fantasize about my wife? Well, it's just not exciting enough as a fantasy. I'm excited enough by her in real life but not as a fantasy.

If I didn't do this then the next day on my way to work seeing all those women in their sheer spring dresses, short skirts, open toe high heels--you know how it is at the start of spring--would just drive me insane. When I'm not satisfied, all women begin to look attractive to me--fat women, older women, not-so-pretty women--and I feel like I'm going crazy with desire.

So, is what I'm doing just a wrong as porn? Or is it just some idle fantasies that mean nothing--just normal and necessary male behavior?

We talk a lot about porn but we all know what we do with porn. So, is self stimulation wrong too or is it just the porn that is wrong?

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ORIGINAL: jawsmetroid

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If someone can do it without lusting, then that is between him/her and God. With Christ all things are possible, but I am not going to pray that Christ help me masturbate without lusting. That is ridiculous.

While I am hesitant to agree with some that masturbation is okay without lust, I am also hesitant to call ridiculous what others have considered okay. It is better to masturbate without lust (if masturbation is a sin) than to masturbate with lust- so you're darn right I'm going to pray that Christ would help people masturbate without lust, because lust is the issue. That is not ridiculous because it helps people deal with it more effectively.
I tend to hold the position that masturbation is sin, but that it is also something we need to be able to control even if it weren't sin.

You go ahead and have your personal convictions, but don't call ridiculous what others see as a step in the right direction.

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ORIGINAL: MowTin

I think you're not considering why God wants us to only have sex within marriage. It's because he doesn't want children without fathers or who don't know who their father is. There is also the issue of disease. It's not that God hates sex. He created sex.

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I don't agree that M is sex. That's playing a little fast and loose with the definition of words. Sex is reproductive and you can't reproduce by yourself. So, I don't think you can call M "sex outside of marriage."

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You say, "his point includes all sexual sin" Fine, but that doesn't mean M is a sexual sin. Sure, fornication may mean "illicit" sexual activity but whether M is "illicit" or not is the very point we're debating. First you need to show that M is illicit or sin before you can use those verses.

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> Masturbation is not mentioned by name (maybe they didn't have a word for it), but I did find a part of the Mosaic Law that applies to it. Bear with me for a few moments.

Leviticus 15:16-18 reads:

If any man has an emission of semen, then he shall wash all his body in water, and be unclean until evening. And any garment and any leather on which there is semen, it shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the evening. Also, when a woman lies with a man, and [there is] an emission of semen, they shall bathe in water, and be unclean until evening (NKJV).

This is normally explained as being a "nocturnal emission" but if you look under the hood at the Hebrew, a different picture evolves. The word "emission" is alah, which means (among other things), "(cause to, make to) come (up)." The word translated "semen" is a compound of shkabah ("a laying down for") and zeroa ("something sown"..."seed"). So, this word choice seems to indicate a deliberate action of producing the seed.

I'm afraid the "passive" sound of the verses in question is a result of religious sensibilities and not the most honest possible translation of the underlying language. The woman's presence is obviously optional (not present in verses 15 or 16) but present in 17. So I put it to you that masturbation is definitely implied by the verses. Even sticking with just the English translation, were it a nocturnal emission, would the phrase "be unclean until evening" make a lot of sense?

Let me take this just a touch farther. In chapter 15, there are two situations that require sin offerings and one that doesn't. This emission from semen is the one that does not require a sin offering. They do become ceremonially unclean, and they do need to wash up afterwards, but that's the beginning and ending of the requirement under the Law. If there is no sin offering required, then no sin has been committed.

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ORIGINAL: jawsmetroid

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Or do we recognize the sin and try to avoid it and repent when we fail?

Given how you've used the word repent, I encourage you to go look at a Greek lexicon of the word. It's not saying sorry... You're repeating yourself in your question. 'avoid it' and 'repent' are essentially the same idea. Stop sinning.

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Here is a biblical proof that the act itself is not sinful. So I will have to accept that.

However, any mental imaging that may accompany the act is still sinful. So for the vast majority of people, those who cannot refrain from thinking sexual thoughts while engaging in this activity, it is still sinful (as the act is inseperably tied to the sinful thought).

If a person can engage in this activity while not thinking any sexual thought, say while reading the gospels, then it would be ok for him. I'd expect that the number of people who could do that is miniscule.

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Some think drinking, smoking, sex outside marriage, abortion, and various other things are ok. To some these are sins, to others they are not. I have a right as an American and a Christian to voice my opinion, and my opinion is that it is ridiculous to pray and ask God to someone else to masturbate without lust. It's like trying to pray the fat and calories out of a Big Mac.

We agree to disagree, but don't tell me not to have an opinion or voice that opinion.

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Avoid is "don't do it". or "Don't start sinning"

Repent is "turn away from and turn toward God" or "Stop sinning and don't sin again"

So while they are simialr they are also different. Repentence always carried the connotation of turning away from something you had been turned toward (that is, something you have been committing)

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And so we see that lust is not sincere if it does not WILL to act. A "lust" that does not will to act is just attraction.

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ORIGINAL: jawsmetroid

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Some think drinking, smoking, sex outside marriage, abortion, and various other things are ok. To some these are sins, to others they are not. I have a right as an American and a Christian to voice my opinion, and my opinion is that it is ridiculous to pray and ask God to someone else to masturbate without lust. It's like trying to pray the fat and calories out of a Big Mac.

We agree to disagree, but don't tell me not to have an opinion or voice that opinion.

I'm not *telling* you not to hold that particular opinion, but to show you how illogical your example and thoughts look to others. And the big mac analogy kind of stinks. A better one would be to pray that God helps you to not constantly think about the big mac- not lessen the calories. Note what I'm claiming here. Lust adds to addiction when combined with masturbation. Apart, it is easier to overcome masturbation. I'm pretty sure most, even if they were against masturbation would agree that taking care of lust before trying to tackle masturbation is a good idea. And you're calling it ridiculous, using a big mac analogy that doesn't tie into what I'm arguing.

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ORIGINAL: MowTin
I think as someone else pointed out that you're confusing lust with normal healthy sexual attraction. It is not a sin to feel an attraction for a woman other than your wife.

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Yesterday, I'm at home relaxing watching television. A Victoria Secret commercial comes on and there's a gorgeous Brizilian model with a perfect body wearing nothing but lace underwear. I thought, "I can't believe they would show something like this during a commercial" as I was transfixed by the image in front of me.

Did I sin in that moment? Should I gouge out my eyes or worse throw out my TV?!

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Let's imagine that scientists have invented a pill that eliminates sexual desire. You can now buy the 12 hour extended anti-lust pill. You're guaranteed 12 lust free hours when you take this pill. You can time your doses such that it wears off around bedtime so you can have relations with your wife.

If I took such a pill would it make me a less sinful man? Can a pill make you a better Christian?

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Of course not! It's not feelings that make you sinful. It's the will to act upon those feelings that make you sinful. If I said in my heart, "Oh if only I had the opportunity to sleep with this woman I would do it" then I would have sinned in my heart.

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For example, Jesus teaching about lust makes perfect sense when you consider that a person who wants to have sex with another man's wife but lacks opportunity is just as wicked as a person who gets the opportunity and sins. (I must point out that this teaching does not apply to lust for unmarried women.)

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However, having a strong attraction for a woman and not acting on that feeling because you love God more is praise worthy.

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If M without lust is not a sin then M while contemplating an attractive woman of beauty is not a sin either.

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However, if there is sincere lust--meaning a will to act--then you're in a sinful state whether or not you M or get the opportunity to act.

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Lust is sexual desire.

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American Heritage defines LUST as an "intense or UNRESTRAINED desire or craving."

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Sins are not feelings. Sins are acts of the will.

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ORIGINAL: John_O

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ORIGINAL: Spacecat
But one thing I do know is that every Believer is Justified by their Faith alone in Christ Jesus & not by works & it is a fact that everyone is a Sinner or has Sinned...& we will Sin, it is a fact, because we all have a fallen nature or Adam's nature.....

So just because we will sin do we start calling those sins not sin? Or do we recognize the sin and try to avoid it and repent when we fail?

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ORIGINAL: MowTin

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Here is a biblical proof that the act itself is not sinful. So I will have to accept that.

However, any mental imaging that may accompany the act is still sinful. So for the vast majority of people, those who cannot refrain from thinking sexual thoughts while engaging in this activity, it is still sinful (as the act is inseperably tied to the sinful thought).

If a person can engage in this activity while not thinking any sexual thought, say while reading the gospels, then it would be ok for him. I'd expect that the number of people who could do that is miniscule.

I think as someone else pointed out that you're confusing lust with normal healthy sexual attraction. It is not a sin to feel an attraction for a woman other than your wife.

Yesterday, I'm at home relaxing watching television. A Victoria Secret commercial comes on and there's a gorgeous Brizilian model with a perfect body wearing nothing but lace underwear. I thought, "I can't believe they would show something like this during a commercial" as I was transfixed by the image in front of me.

Did I sin in that moment? Should I gouge out my eyes or worse throw out my TV?!

Before we answer this let's reconsider the issue for a moment.

Let's imagine that scientists have invented a pill that eliminates sexual desire. You can now buy the 12 hour extended anti-lust pill. You're guaranteed 12 lust free hours when you take this pill. You can time your doses such that it wears off around bedtime so you can have relations with your wife.

If I took such a pill would it make me a less sinful man? Can a pill make you a better Christian?

Of course not! It's not feelings that make you sinful. It's the will to act upon those feelings that make you sinful. If I said in my heart, "Oh if only I had the opportunity to sleep with this woman I would do it" then I would have sinned in my heart.

For example, Jesus teaching about lust makes perfect sense when you consider that a person who wants to have sex with another man's wife but lacks opportunity is just as wicked as a person who gets the opportunity and sins. (I must point out that this teaching does not apply to lust for unmarried women.) However, having a strong attraction for a woman and not acting on that feeling because you love God more is praise worthy.

Would God praise a man who rejected an old ugly married woman? No, it's easy for him to reject her.

And so we see that lust is not sincere if it does not WILL to act. A "lust" that does not will to act is just attraction. If M without lust is not a sin then M while contemplating an attractive woman of beauty is not a sin either. However, if there is sincere lust--meaning a will to act--then you're in a sinful state whether or not you M or get the opportunity to act.

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I think as someone else pointed out that you're confusing lust with normal healthy sexual attraction. It is not a sin to feel an attraction for a woman other than your wife.

Yesterday, I'm at home relaxing watching television. A Victoria Secret commercial comes on and there's a gorgeous Brizilian model with a perfect body wearing nothing but lace underwear. I thought, "I can't believe they would show