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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/4/2005 6:11:01 AM
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dreamsofrealism
Posts: 37
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ndebted2GOD
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Why would I leave a social gathering if I see women in Bikini's at a Florida beach party? Perhaps they think nothing of what they are doing?
You're very correct, they are not thinking at all about what they are doing. Unfortunately, it seems that you and most likely many other guys are very concerned with what they are doing. The sexual revolution that began in the 60's is slowly, or not so slowly, making it's way into the church. I've seen women/girls at church who were dressed like streetwalkers. The lax attitude toward appropriate attire in the church is very disconcerting. What happened to the standard set by the Apostle Paul:
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1Co 8:9-13 MKJV But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours becomes a stumbling block to those who are weak. [10] For if anyone sees you who have knowledge sitting in an idol temple, will not the weak one's conscience be lifted up so as to eat things sacrificed to idols? [11] And on your knowledge the weak brother will fall, he for whom Christ died. [12] And sinning in this way against your brothers, and wounding their conscience, being weak, you sin against Christ. [13] Therefore, if food offends my brother, I will eat no flesh forever, that I do not offend my brother.
This verse speaking of food sacrificed to idols is just as applicable to any behavior that would/could cause another to stumble in their walk with God. If the state of undress of someone causes another to stumble, how does that action stand up against this scripture.
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I mean, are we honoring God by building a model? Using the bathroom? Working out? Watching or playing a baseball game? Alot of these actions are in the "Neutral" zone, neither good nor evil.
You've got to be kidding me. Do you watch a baseball game admiring the stiches on the ball or the way the batter pine tars his bat? Do you look at the water in the toilet bowl in lustful admiration? How about that sweat pouring off my forehead, isn't that just the most intoxicating and passionate thing in the world?
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But then my arguement is, "Well, God did make the female form for us to "check out" otherwise, we wouldn't be able to poplulate the Earth"
The last time I checked, populating the earth took more than one man and one hand. I don't recall God telling us to, "check out the babes and populate the earth."
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Personally, I always thought, "Hey, you can look, but don't touch" as long as you "Lust", and you don't actually do anything with the woman....I always felt it was okay.
Personally, I never felt guilty about thinking about a woman in a lustful manner, even to this day.
Alot of us think that "hey, as long as you THINK something, and it's not doing anyone else any harm...how is it bad?"
What we think is vitally important to who we are. Does the harm only matter if it's outside of our own body? Why would Paul tell us:
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2Co 10:2-6 MKJV But I ask, not being present, that I may be bold with the confidence which I think to be daring against some, who thought of us as walking according to flesh. [3] For though walking about in flesh, we do not war according to flesh. [4] For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds, [5] pulling down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought into the obedience of Christ; [6] and having readiness to avenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
It's quite apparant that our thoughts were important enough for God to tell us to take them captive into the obedience of Christ. What exactly does this mean to you?
I don't want to sound like a prude who wants the women veiled from head to toe. My point is that "LUST" is wrong unless it's for God....a passionate, overmastering desire for a relationship with the creator. God did not create man to lust after sex, food, power, or any other earthly thing. He created you and me for relationship with Him. It is our right, priviledge and duty as His kids to give Him that first love.
That said, can you see a beautiful young girl and appreciate her beauty? Of course you can! Read the Song of Solomon. Are we entitled to enjoy God's creation? Yes. However, when it gets to the point of lust, then you've crossed the line.
- It is one thing to dress like a street walker in church (not good) , it's another to dress appropriately at a beach party (bathing attire = acceptable for the event)
- You said that you don't recall God saying to check out the babes, in order to populate the Earth.
That's what I dont' understand, there are alot of things that god DIDN'T say.....why must he "not say" anything for it to be bad? Just because he didn't say it, doesn't make it wrong. Or perhaps, God left that part out of the Bible?
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You've got to be kidding me. Do you watch a baseball game admiring the stiches on the ball or the way the batter pine tars his bat? Do you look at the water in the toilet bowl in lustful admiration? How about that sweat pouring off my forehead, isn't that just the most intoxicating and passionate thing in the world?
I think you drew the same analogy I did.
I used to have experiences with Bosses like that....or friends....I would take the initiative to do something for them....and when I did it, they wouldn't appreciate it....they'd say, "Did I TELL YOU TO DO THAT??" And I'd say, "Well no".
But, why does God have to tell us to do something in order to do it?
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[Deleted] - 11/4/2005 10:48:48 AM
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/4/2005 11:10:04 AM
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Ndebted2GOD
Posts: 48
Joined: 5/11/2005
From: Plain O, Texas
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quote:
That's what I dont' understand, there are alot of things that god DIDN'T say.....why must he "not say" anything for it to be bad? Just because he didn't say it, doesn't make it wrong. Or perhaps, God left that part out of the Bible?
You are correct in that God has left alot apparantly unsaid. However, does that mean that He has not addressed the subject. Bear with me for a moment with the following analogy:
You may remember Pauls thorn in the flesh. (2 Cor. 12:7) There have been many guesses as to what that thorn may in fact have been. Some have suggested eye disease, others have suggested other thing. Let me ask you a question; why did Paul not say exactly what the thorn was?
Let's call it bursitis. Now today, I've got bursitis....what do I say. Boy, that ole Paul had bursitis and look at what he did, I must be pretty special if God gave me bursitis like Paul. What if I've got diabetes? Boy, I sure wish I had bursitis like Paul, I guess I'm not as special.
The point is that some things remain unnamed for a good reason and that reason is human pride.
Just because God does not say, "Thou shalt not check out the babes", doesn't mean that it's okay to do it. Remember again the words of Paul,
quote:
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful to me, but not all things profit. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Do not be brought under the power of any thing other than your creator/savior. My issue is not with seeing beautiful women. My point is that when seeing them, if you allow yourself to go down the road to lusting (overmastering desire) for them then you are violating God's word, "Thou shalt have no gods before ME!" (caps and exclamation mine)
I'm not judging you or condemning you for any of this. Trust me, I've been there and the consequences of lust will eventually come. Are you ready for God to shake that which can be shaken?
_____________________________
I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf. Gal. 2:20
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[Deleted] - 11/4/2005 11:09:38 PM
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/5/2005 6:08:21 PM
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Ndebted2GOD
Posts: 48
Joined: 5/11/2005
From: Plain O, Texas
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WhatLoveIs,
That is good information. I do think that many men will just say that this is written to sex addicts. The sad truth is that even if you're not addicted to sex doesn't mean that the same thoughts, feelings, behaviors and consequences can't be felt. I know many men who may occasionally look at porn but not necessarily be considered addicted. However, the degradation of the temple is still taking place.
I thought the following quote was the most important for us all to understand.
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As we will discuss later, pride and sexual sin are inextricably linked together. I mention it now because it plays such a major role in the process of mental degradation. Jesus thanked the Father that the truths of God were hidden from those who were wise in their own eyes. Only a humble heart can understand the true nature of God.
I can speak from my own life experience and testify to the extent of my pride. It devastated me but God in His glory shook me and changed me. I like to say that He put me on the operating table, cut me open for all to see and took away the scourge of sin in my life. It's not fun to be exposed in your sin and it's even less fun to confess it to those you most love. However, I came to the conclusion that my eternal security was worth much more than pride.
_____________________________
I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf. Gal. 2:20
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[Deleted] - 11/5/2005 7:18:29 PM
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2005 4:38:53 AM
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Pax2y_all
Posts: 107
Joined: 11/1/2005
From: Southern Nevada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wolfvanzandt
quote:
But, is it ever ok to remain bound to an negative addiction of any kind, even when there is no physical concequenes?
It's a pretty far stretch to call masturbation an addiction when it's required at a frequency around 25 times a month to prevent prostate cancer. It's simply a health maintenance procedure.
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Masterbation may be good, but is it the best God has for us?
It actually seems to be what God provided for us to maintain our health in several categories (if you read the research in the original threads, you will see that it reduces problems in several areas). It seems to be the preventative maintenance of choice for some problems so, yes, I figure it is the best God has for us for those parts of our life that requires such maintenance.
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Everytime that I M-d since I've been porn free, it's the only thing that keeps bringing all that trash back up in my mind. I don't want to talk to anyone afterwards for several days. I'm tired of cleaning up after myself, and the time I waste.
That's sorta like Pavlov's dogs. You've associated a good thing (masturbation) with a bad thing (pornography) so that when one occurs, the other comes to mind. THat's certainly a problem with pornography - it even dirties up good things - it pervades your life.
Maturbation, after the teenage years when it is the most common form of sexual activity, is, for most men and women an activity hidden and denied because (A) they are embarrassed that they do it and (B) thinking Christians know that it effects them psychologically, points to a poor sexual self image, and uncertain spiritual health.
What danger is there in masturbation? If you masturbate it means, and all of you masturbation apologists out there need to understand this, that you are lusting in your heart for a woman, or a man -- real or imagined -- and have, therefore, actually committed the sin of fornication.
I, for one, get sick and tired of listening to this tripe about "It's OK to do it." "I can do it and not lust" Do what???
You know it's wrong. Your body provides you with sexual release in the form of wet dreams. Maybe that isn't as powerful a sexual experience as masturbating during sex scenes on cable TV, but that is the mechanism God accessorized your body with to release sexual tension during dream states. Masturbation, all Christians, male and female, know is wrong. It is a sin. What is with all of this rationalization you guys are putting out?
Where in the world of real physical science and medicine did you pick up the statistic that a man needs to masturbate a score or more times a month to maintain prostate health? That's utter garbage! I'm 54 years old, haven't had sex or masturbated for more than 20 years, and my prostate test, done 10-22-05 was perfect.
Here's some more tripe: "It actually seems to be what God provided to maintain our health in several categories (if you read the research...)..." Are you, a Christian, actually giving the Lord Jehovah the credit for masturbation? The research you need to be reading is whatever translation of the Scriptures is on your bedstand. Find and report back where God instructed Moses, or any other Jewish leader, on the fine points of masturbation.
If it weren't sinful, why is that none of you have the cajones to walk up to the girl, or woman, that you imagined having sex with while you masturbated, and saying, "Hey, I got myself off last night having imaginary sex with you. Man, you were great!"
You people need a heavy dose of hard, honest and loving preaching. It's wrong.
Oh, yeah, "You've associated a good thing (masturbation) with a bad thing (pornography)." Masturbating is a good thing? Says who? Did Jesus say, from the Mount, to the people gathered below, "Blessed are they who masturbate for they shall find prostate health." Shoot, I must have missed that; the printers probably left that out of my Bible by mistake.
Another response that nearly made me choke was something like, "Would you masturbate in front of Christ?" And later, "Would you defecate or urinate in front of Christ?" Let me tell you, if Christ, in the flesh or in the spirit, came down and joined our church's Men's Group outing in the woods -- and I felt the need to relieve myself, I'd certainly go behind a tree to do so. I feel, with near certaintude, that Jesus would not follow me to watch.
In fact, if Jesus (and when Jesus) was in the flesh, he would still relieve himself in the same way that you do but most likely NOT in front of his followers.
Would I masturbate in front of Christ? If I were to masturbate, it would not be in front of Christ, or Peter, or Paul Bunyan for that matter. Not unless the masturbation were part of some homosexual ritual. Since I'm neither homosexual nor an exhibitionist, and since I don't masturbate at all, those are all non-issues.
I'd tell you guys to get a grip on yourself, but it's painfully obvious that most of you are getting a grip on yourself a little too regularly.
Grow up!
_____________________________
"There are only two kinds of people who think I talk too much... Those what love me and those what hate me."
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2005 9:30:55 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3839
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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OK FJ:
So you would'nt M in front of Christ. We get that. You mentioned the question: "Would you deficate or urinate in front of Him?" and " Why or why not?" You said you would go behind a tree. Is Christ not there watching? Or does slipping off somewhere shield me from God's perception? Every time you go to the bathroom He is there watching. He sees you shower. Need I go on?
Also, do you need to think of someone else using the toilet to relieve your bowels or bladder? Of course not. It is no different in relieving one's prostate of seminal build up. It is very much like urination.
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[Deleted] - 11/7/2005 11:48:55 AM
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2005 12:21:27 PM
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Pax2y_all
Posts: 107
Joined: 11/1/2005
From: Southern Nevada
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Dave-
I think the good Lord and His Father in Heaven are just a little too busy saving souls and changing hearts to watch me pee. As for Him being everywhere, are you saying he takes a shower with me? No doubt He is in my heart while I'm taking a shower, but that's probably because I sing (badly) songs of Praise in the shower. But is He actually watching me take a shower? Well, that's just a bit too gay for me.
The song says, "His eye is on the sparrow, but I know he watches me." Need He be there when I'm on my throne? No, I don't buy that reasoning -- if indeed it is reasoning.
Prostate health? Get real; you're rationalizing a sin by saying it's necessary for good health.
That's the reasoning behind so many unneccessary abortions: "It's for the health of the mother." Hog wash, in most cases that "health of the mother" reasoning is usually just another rationalization used to kill an unborn child (but that's another subject for another time); it's just a murderous form of birth control or damage control.
One last time, if you chose to masturbate, and to commit the sin of fornication, be a man about it and say, "I'll do it because it feels good. So what if it's a sin."
OK FJ:
So you would'nt M in front of Christ. We get that. You mentioned the question: "Would you deficate or urinate in front of Him?" and " Why or why not?" You said you would go behind a tree. Is Christ not there watching? Or does slipping off somewhere shield me from God's perception? Every time you go to the bathroom He is there watching. He sees you shower. Need I go on?
Also, do you need to think of someone else using the toilet to relieve your bowels or bladder? Of course not. It is no different in relieving one's prostate of seminal build up. It is very much like urination.
[/quote]
_____________________________
"There are only two kinds of people who think I talk too much... Those what love me and those what hate me."
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2005 1:37:13 PM
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Gluelin
Posts: 43
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankejordan
One last time, if you chose to masturbate, and to commit the sin of fornication, be a man about it and say, "I'll do it because it feels good. So what if it's a sin."
I think it's a testimony to your commitment to righteous living that you have been able to go without masturbation or sex for 20 years. And your posts make it clear that you have a commitment to your faith that many of us should strive to emulate.
I haven't gone back very far, so maybe you've already addressed this, but what is your support for equating masturbation to fornication. I don't think anyone has argued that fornication isn't sinful. But clearly there is disagreement about whether the act of masturbation is. My contention is that it is neither edifying nor defiling, sort of like eating potato chips doesn't by itself nourish or harm the physical body. As some have pointed out earlier, the Bible doesn't explicitly forbid m, so they infer that it must be permissible. That reasoning isn't completely invalid. Just like earthly law, if no law exists forbidding certain behavior, then there's no grounds to arrest a person behaving in such a way. However, written law clearly can not forsee each and all circumstances, so some inferences must be made to determine if an action is forbidden implicity within the law. I am not convinced that masturbation is either fornication or adultery (as many women in the marriage forum would probably argue, and which, if we call it fornication, then for a married man it would be adultery, and, therefore, a divorcable offense). If it is sinful, it must be so because of some other reason, which I don't think anyone has convincingly argued. The argument often goes back to lust, sexual fantasy, its fornication, etc. And while those may often be associated with m, they are separate and distinct activities from m.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2005 5:06:52 PM
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Pax2y_all
Posts: 107
Joined: 11/1/2005
From: Southern Nevada
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Gluelin-
Don't think I haven't had my own problems with feeling lustful at the approach of a beautiful woman! Just because I choose to live a celibate life until the Lord leads me to a woman just right for me, doesn't mean I'm dead from the waist down.
I'm paraphrasing, but Christ said that to look upon a woman with lust in your heart is to commit fornication or, as you say, in the case of a married man, adultry.
It is a rare bird indeed who can masturbate without a complete, lustful fantasy of a woman (usually one he knows personally, or some celebrity or nude model in a men's magazine).
I mean, unless the guy is turned on by himself, he's probably lusting after some woman, or worse still, some guy. Either way, if my logic serves me, if we believe Christ, that lusting in your heart equals fornication, then the masturbatory act, and the fantasies engendered, should be considered fornication.
I would also mention that, in the case of an immature male of any age, being turned down for a date by, or being made to feel small by (say the most popular girl in church or something along that line) often generates terrible, violent fantasies of rape or bondage and even murder in that male during the masturbatory act.
Anyone who thinks a person can entertain such violent, debasing sexual fantasies about women in general, and Christian women, in particular, and still walk with the Lord, isn't thinking too clearly.
Now then, how do I know that these sexually immature males have these violent fantasies about women with whom they have had arguments? I've been a secular social work supervisor for For Love of Children in Front Royal, Virgina; the Florida Sheriffs Association Youth Camps for emotionally disturbed and behaviorally disordered adjudicated boys and girls; and for the Georgia Mental Health Institute's outdoor therapeutic program for violent, teen aged offenders.
And one thing most of these guys have in common is an addiction to masturbation and violent fantasies about degrading women sexually, and, not a few murderous fantasies during the masturbation process. What is worse still, is the fact that a lot of these guys acted out on those fantasies.
I now do quite a bit of Christian counselling for individuals, some premarital counselling for couples, and a lot of counselling of married couples on the brink of divorce. They are referred to me by their pastors.
You might be suprised to know that, not a few married men suffer sexual dysfunction with their wives because of their over-blown masturbatory fantasies about other women. So, to tie in the thread of your question about infidelity if a man fantasizes about other women while masturbating, I'd say, yeah, that's close enough to the definition of infidelity as you can get And especially when your wife can't satify you sexually due to your fantasies of the other women that they masturbate to.
All in all, masturbation, after the teen age years, is not such a health, or Christian activity.
_____________________________
"There are only two kinds of people who think I talk too much... Those what love me and those what hate me."
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2005 6:38:05 PM
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wolfvanzandt
Posts: 61
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
Maturbation, after the teenage years when it is the most common form of sexual activity, is, for most men and women an activity hidden and denied because (A) they are embarrassed that they do it and (B) thinking Christians know that it effects them psychologically, points to a poor sexual self image, and uncertain spiritual health.
That's because they're convicted by their culture - not the Bible or by God.
quote:
If you masturbate it means, and all of you masturbation apologists out there need to understand this, that you are lusting in your heart for a woman, or a man -- real or imagined -- and have, therefore, actually committed the sin of fornication.
No, it actually doesn't mean that. Lust means wanting to go out and commit an act. Masturbation doesn't typically involve that.
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You know it's wrong.
Actually, I think I'm very correct. I strongly suspect that you are very wrong.
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Your body provides you with sexual release in the form of wet dreams.
Not since adolescence and most men lose wet dreams arouund adolescence or soon after.
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It is a sin. What is with all of this rationalization you guys are putting out?
It's simply the recognition that you have no basis for saying that and that there is plenty of basis for stating the opposite opinion. I'm rather amazed, but not surprised taht you can hold onto such an unfounded belief. The Bible doesn't support you nor does any observable fact. You simply have a strongly held opinion.
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Are you, a Christian, actually giving the Lord Jehovah the credit for masturbation? The research you need to be reading is whatever translation of the Scriptures is on your bedstand. Find and report back where God instructed Moses, or any other Jewish leader, on the fine points of masturbation.
The one time the Bible spoke of masturbation, it was in a noncondemning, neutral manner. The reserach at least provides an objective basis for my beliefs. You don't even have that. You have no basis for your opinions that you have presented. You're just stating your opinions.
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If it weren't sinful, why is that none of you have the cajones to walk up to the girl, or woman, that you imagined having sex with while you masturbated, and saying, "Hey, I got myself off last night having imaginary sex with you. Man, you were great!"
I don't know if I've ever fantasized having sex with any real woman while masturbating so that would be difficult. If I did, I would have more consideration that.
quote:
Oh, yeah, "You've associated a good thing (masturbation) with a bad thing (pornography)." Masturbating is a good thing? Says who? Did Jesus say, from the Mount, to the people gathered below, "Blessed are they who masturbate for they shall find prostate health." Shoot, I must have missed that; the printers probably left that out of my Bible by mistake.
LOL. THat's pretty doggone rediculous. The Sermon on te Mount was not about physical health. In fact, the Bible as a whole is not over concerned about physical health although it does occassionally address it - but not exiensively nor intensively.
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Where in the world of real physical science and medicine did you pick up the statistic that a man needs to masturbate a score or more times a month to maintain prostate health? That's utter garbage! I'm 54 years old, haven't had sex or masturbated for more than 20 years, and my prostate test, done 10-22-05 was perfect.
Hmmmm....you either didn't read what was said or are being purposely obtuse..
quote:
One last time, if you chose to masturbate, and to commit the sin of fornication, be a man about it and say, "I'll do it because it feels good. So what if it's a sin."
FJ, tHe problem here is that you hold an opinion that you can't support - even by scriptures - yet you want the rest of humanity to accept your opinion. Since there is, at least Biblical and objective basis for believing that masturbation is not wrong, you really need to ease up.
Frank, all I see here is that you have a really, really strong opinion and you think that anyone that doesn't share that opinion is juvenile. I can think of a lot of words to describe such an attitude and I really can't think of one that is good.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/7/2005 7:28:29 PM
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PolarBear
Posts: 750
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Moving to San Antonio!
Status: online
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quote:
The research you need to be reading is whatever translation of the Scriptures is on your bedstand. Find and report back where God instructed Moses, or any other Jewish leader, on the fine points of masturbation.
Yeah, let's.
Leviticus 15:16 NET Bible “‘When a man has a seminal emission, he must bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until evening
This is the only Bible passage that references it either directly or indirectly. Since it seems to be neutral here (being "unclean" clearly does not equate to sin), and taking into account its complete absense from the several lists of sexual perversions in the Bible (which do bother to mention bestiality -- who is tempted by THAT???), I think you have your answer as to whether or not God considers it a sin.
Until you can find Scripture that trumps Leviticus 15:16 on this issue, there is no basis for calling it inherently sinful.
_____________________________
My current ministry dream:
http://victorymuseum.org
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[Deleted] - 11/8/2005 12:34:08 PM
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/8/2005 6:31:13 PM
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wolfvanzandt
Posts: 61
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
However, you are right in saying that masturbation fanticies tend to degrade the woman (or guys for some people) in those fanticies. Those fanticies tend to devalue other human beings as sex toys for guys to jack off about. Masturbation also forms a false intamacy that can interfere with any guy's ability to be comfortable with regular healthy relational intamacy.
What I can't understand is how you so confidently portray what goes on in other people's heads. What basis do you have of saying that other's masturbation fantasies devalue anyone?
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The more he gives in to fantasy, the more selfish he becomes.
Again, how do you know that? Fantasy might be a means of escapism but it's also an excellant problem solving tool. Every facility of the human mind , body, or spirit can be used wrongly - that doesn't mean it's always evil.
quote:
You can read the rest of the chapter from
The problem I have with literature like this is that it seems to be written from the basis of the author already knowing that masturbation is wrong and they have no more basis for believing it than you do - cultural bias.
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[Deleted] - 11/8/2005 8:58:52 PM
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/9/2005 6:49:21 AM
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Pax2y_all
Posts: 107
Joined: 11/1/2005
From: Southern Nevada
Status: offline
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Hey, Hey, WhatLoveIs:
That book is going into my library after I read and reread it enough times to find a topic when it can be useful when I'm helping out a client. Thanks for the blurb and for supporting my beliefs that masturbation is sinful.
Our brother in Christ, wolfvanzandt, eloquently defends his position that masturbation is not sinful in the Biblical sense because the Bible doesn't condemn it specifically. So, masturbation is Okey Dokey, "necessary to promote prostate health." He says again and again that neither of us have shown any [my word would be emperical] evidence that can show that it is unhealthy or sinful.
Well, I've got some shocking news for Wolf and his "Masturbation Nation". All of you "Christian" men who've adamantly supported wolf's thesis statement in these posts, that it's OK to play, should know this: As evidenced by your writings, you guys must think that you "discovered" and "perfected" masturbation. Well, you did find out about it, and learn how to do it, as a kid in your room or bathtub or in a tree. But masturbation is nothing new.
Notwithstanding your modern, long winded, highly "logical", masturbatory apologetics; you're just spouting the same old rationalizations your fathers used, and the same ones your grandfathers, great grandfathers etc. etc. etc. employed to make them feel less ashamed of what they were doing, including what sexual fantasies they preferred, and the somtimes terrible sexual fantasies they conjured up -- and it's all the same old **** that still stinks.
Me thinks y'all protest too much.
And while I certainly agree with you, WhatLove Is, that not all men who masturbate, or even those who do so excessively, (and I highly suspect our guy wolf might be a master masturbater) are prone to violent sexual fantasies during masturbation, the number of supposedly Godly guys who do entertain such horrific masturbatory motifs, frightens even an old cynic like me!
And I know for an absolute fact (I'm saying a fact, with stats, wolf) that among the men who come for therapy due to relationship problems, many of them complain of erectile dysfunction when in their marriage bed. Now I'm not talking about old guys like me, but guys in their 20' and 30's. They complain that their wive's don't understand them anymore. Or, my wife doesn't meet my sexual needs and because of it, I can't get it up.
When they're asked if they can getit up, and sustain an erection by masturbating, most of those guys say, "yes they can." Asked if they have sexual fantasies while masturbating, not suprisingly, they say yes. When you ask how often they masturbate, these guys say 5-6 times a week. Now why does a married guy have to masturbate at all? I guess it's necessary for prostate health, huh. You gotta get it off 25-30 times a month, you know.
WhatLoveIs, did you ever see the second greatest black and white film ever made (God only knows if wolf is going to crucify me for stating, as a fact, my pitiful, undocumented oppinion on this subject as well). The movie is "Cool Hand Luke" starring Paul Newman (his finest acting ever) and George Kennedy as two convicts working on a chain gang in the deep South.
Well, ole Luke (Newman) escapes from the chain gang and is at large and on the town for several months. He is, however, recaptured and returned to the prison farm. Before the warden slaps Luke into leg irons he says, "What we have here (three beats of silence) is a failure to communicate." That's where we are with wolf. His argument is both eloquent and, sophisticated. But I feel it lacks substance. His argument, tossed and dressed, is that if it doesn't specifically say it's a sin in the Bible, it's not a sin. Well, what we have here is a failure to communicate.
Because, if that's the case, then phoning in a bomb threat to a day care center is not a sin. After all, neither telephones nor day care centers are mentioned in the Bible, nor are bombs.
If we accept wolf's logic, it can't be a sin for a Christian guy to attach electrodes to a woman's breasts and shock her into sexual submission. That's the signature of the run of the mill, sexual psychopath in route to becoming a serial killer. But, I mean, how could it be a sin? In the entire Bible, there is absolutely no reference of a man using electrodes plugged into a 120v outlet to torture and to humiliate a woman. In fact, there is no sin until the perv commits murder. Now that's a sin, murder; it's in the Bible!
Otherwise, no harm, no foul I guess you'd say.
And wolf calls me obtuse? Right, and I'm a NFL placekicker and I own this bar. In fact, sometimes when I read some of these posts and the pitiful attempts they make to rationalize playing with themselves, I think I am drunk.
Great post. Thanks for watching my back!
God bless and keep you, WhatLoveIs, and all whom you love.
_____________________________
"There are only two kinds of people who think I talk too much... Those what love me and those what hate me."
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/9/2005 10:31:07 AM
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Ndebted2GOD
Posts: 48
Joined: 5/11/2005
From: Plain O, Texas
Status: offline
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fj, there are many points that I agree with you on and that most professional therapists (secular and christian) would also agree with. in fact, Doug Weiss (Heart to Heart Couseling) has stated that a man will eventually act on a fantasy that is reinforced by masturbation. in other words, if while masturbating, a man imagines himself having sex with a 15 year old girl...that fantasy becomes so fixed in his thoughts that eventually he will act on it. there are many youth pastors out there who will testify to this.
however, where i cannot fully agree with you is on the assumption that every time any man masturbates he is fantasizing about sex in any form. you have indeed based your belief on very specific statistics from your experiences in counseling. what you've not answered is the question, "if a man can masturbate without fantasy, is that masturbation still a sin?"
i believe that we should have no gods before God (1st commandment). if masturbation has become a god (addiction, release through fantasy, etc...) in our life, then we must consider it a sin for us. i don't fall for the 25-30 times a week seminal emmision argument and also know that God has called some men to celibacy. there are always going to be fringe groups in regard to any "behavior" issue. this is where the 1st commandment becomes front and center. if one's behavior is taking him away from God...he should then reassess what it is that he's doing and let God be God.
if we would concern ourself more with helping people understand that "to live is Christ" and less with judging and condemning for sin or our definition of it then maybe we would have more men on their face before God and fewer trying to reach that elusive 25th time.
_____________________________
I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf. Gal. 2:20
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[Deleted] - 11/9/2005 12:28:03 PM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/9/2005 3:26:42 PM
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Ndebted2GOD
Posts: 48
Joined: 5/11/2005
From: Plain O, Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
I kinda see where you are going with this. If more people were empowered to go on missions, do evangelism, build church buildings, and other things that help us "live for Christ" ... there would be no room for masturbation.
If people had a deeper passion for God, there would not be a passion for masturbation.
In a sense you have understood what I'm saying. I'm not saying anything about "works". Christian works should be an outgrowth of our faith not a requirement for acceptance by God. Most importantly, my point is that Christ lives in us and we live in Him. With this mindset, we will proceed through life doing what it is that He would do through us. If that is missions or evangelism, great. If it's intercessory prayer from the comfort of our own homes, great. God desires us to come to the place that we don't think about this earthsuit that we reside in and how it's needs should be met. Life is spiritual from eternity past to eternity future. The life we (I) now live in the flesh we (I) should live by faith toward the Son of God, who loved us (me) and gave Himself up for us (me).
_____________________________
I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf. Gal. 2:20
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/9/2005 6:42:08 PM
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wolfvanzandt
Posts: 61
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Our brother in Christ, wolfvanzandt, eloquently defends his position that masturbation is not sinful in the Biblical sense because the Bible doesn't condemn it specifically.
Frank, that proves that you're not interested in knowing what has actually been said in the rest of the thread. It is absolutely incorrect.
quote:
Well, I've got some shocking news for Wolf and his "Masturbation Nation". All of you "Christian" men who've adamantly supported wolf's thesis statement in these posts, that it's OK to play, should know this: As evidenced by your writings, you guys must think that you "discovered" and "perfected" masturbation. Well, you did find out about it, and learn how to do it, as a kid in your room or bathtub or in a tree. But masturbation is nothing new.
Frank, where in the world did you come up with that?
quote:
just spouting the same old rationalizations your fathers used, and the same ones your grandfathers, great grandfathers etc. etc. etc. employed to make them feel less ashamed of what they were doing, including what sexual fantasies they preferred, and the somtimes terrible sexual fantasies they conjured up
That's pretty laughable. My progenitors were as much a part of their culrue as you are - in brief, I was taught that masturbation was wrong. But since I have the evidence to support my view and you don't have any substantive evidence to support yours, I would think that it's obvious that you're the one that's rationalizing.
quote:
WhatLoveIs, did you ever see the second greatest black and white film ever made (God only knows if wolf is going to crucify me for stating, as a fact, my pitiful, undocumented oppinion on this subject as well). The movie is "Cool Hand Luke" starring Paul Newman (his finest acting ever) and George Kennedy as two convicts working on a chain gang in the deep South.
It was a good film and possibly the second greatest although that would be a hard evaluation to make. Since I say that #1 was "Twelve Angry Men" and the general concensus is that #1 is "Citizen Kane", they should also be in the running.
quote:
But I feel it lacks substance.
Actually, the difference between my stance and yours, Frank, is exactly that mine has substance.
quote:
If we accept wolf's logic, it can't be a sin for a Christian guy to attach electrodes to a woman's breasts and shock her into sexual submission. That's the signature of the run of the mill, sexual psychopath in route to becoming a serial killer. But, I mean, how could it be a sin? In the entire Bible, there is absolutely no reference of a man using electrodes plugged into a 120v outlet to torture and to humiliate a woman. In fact, there is no sin until the perv commits murder. Now that's a sin, murder; it's in the Bible!
As you should have picked up by now, if you were reading the thread, I'm not arguing from a lack of evidence in the Bible. That's your imagination playing games with you.
Frank, the problem with you generalizing from your clients to the rest of humanity is that your clients are not a representative sample. They are already having problems (I assume with sex). There are plenty of people "out there" who masturbate but have not presented clinically as having any problem related to sex. You aren't taking them into consideration.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/10/2005 12:11:15 AM
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PolarBear
Posts: 750
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Moving to San Antonio!
Status: online
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Frank, instead of long-winded, highly-opinionated posts, how about simply showing us a Scripture verse that trumps Leviticus 15:16 on this issue? We do, after all, believe the Bible is the final authority for living.
_____________________________
My current ministry dream:
http://victorymuseum.org
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/10/2005 6:24:25 AM
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dreamsofrealism
Posts: 37
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
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Masterbation....a god? How is this possible? When God said, "Thall shalt not have any other gods, before me" He meant idol worshippers....ie - Horace, Ra, etc. false gods
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 11/10/2005 6:27:07 AM
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dreamsofrealism
Posts: 37
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
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