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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2008 6:33:20 PM
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HisPriest
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
And it's best to end it with Colossians 2:16.
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration, OR A SABBATH DAY".
gambit, please don't feel bad for what I am about to say, but this is a very common mistake that a lot of people make due to lack of knowledge; as a matter of fact people like to use verses 14 to 17, here they are:
Col. 2: 14-17 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Now please read careful and notice that certain law of “ordinances” was nailed to the cross. But this was the ceremonial law of types and shadows! Did you notice that? This pointed forward to the death of Jesus and that had no further meaning beyond the cross. And this is why Paul said it was contrary to the Christian; when the vail in the temple rent at the death of Christ indicated the end of the ordinance of animal sacrifices.
That is why Paul says that we are no longer judged by the “meat offerings”, “drink offerings”, and “Sabbath days” Now this Sabbath days are yearly and not the weekly Sabbath of the moral law; the weekly Sabbath is not a shadow; if you want to have more knowledge about this you should read Lev. 23:24-37 these yearly Sabbaths could be any day of the week, not only the seventh day, and it were different every year, but when you read verse 37 and 38; they were distinguished from the weekly Sabbath:
'These are the feasts of the LORD which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire to the LORD, a burnt offering and a grain offering, a sacrifice and drink offerings, everything on its day -- 38 'besides the Sabbaths of the LORD, besides your gifts, besides all your vows, and besides all your freewill offerings which you give to the LORD.
So, the law of the yearly Sabbaths, with all its meat and drink offerings, was nailed to the cross, but the great Ten Commandment Law with its weekly Sabbath was not affected by that “blotting out” of ORDINACES.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/17/2008 5:18:17 PM
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Bluethread
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High Priest:
Far be it from me to show disrespect to the Cohen Hagadol, since you have taken that name, but in light of other Scripture, I think you both go too far and not far enough at the same time. First, I do believe the written Torah is a shadow of the spiritual reality of the kingdom of Adonai, which is to come. That said, I think you go to far to say that the “ordinances” have passed away.
I believe it is the judgement based on Ha Torah that has passed away. Since Ha Torah(The Word) who was made flesh and tabernacled among us was nailed to the executioner's stake, there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Yeshua Ha Meshiach(Jesus the Messiah). Therefore, don't let anyone judge you regarding how you keep Ha Torah, which includes the Shabbot. However, there are still blessings and curses that follow from keeping Ha Torah in general and Shabbat in particular. We are not to question anyones salvation based on the details of Ha Torah.
That said, though we are obligated to inform others of the blessings and curses related to the keeping of Shabbat, we are not to condemn them should they choose to forgo those blessings and risk those curses.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/18/2008 12:52:52 PM
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LBolt
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When I look at the word "ordinances" in that verse, it is "dogmas."
Which tend to deal more with man made laws as opposed to "God made laws."
I can't see God word being a dogma because it is not the mere opinions of man.
Look this word up and tell me what you come up with.
God Bless.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/20/2008 10:07:15 AM
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HisPriest
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Do you know that the Sabbath was part of creation? Do you know that God bless that day and not other one? Also make it holy.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/20/2008 12:48:29 PM
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LBolt
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Amen! HisPriest, I agree with you and more importantly, scripture agrees with you. Gen. 2:1-3
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/21/2008 7:16:41 PM
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HisPriest
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
High Priest:
Far be it from me to show disrespect to the Cohen Hagadol, since you have taken that name, but in light of other Scripture, I think you both go too far and not far enough at the same time. First, I do believe the written Torah is a shadow of the spiritual reality of the kingdom of Adonai, which is to come. That said, I think you go to far to say that the “ordinances” have passed away.
I believe it is the judgement based on Ha Torah that has passed away. Since Ha Torah(The Word) who was made flesh and tabernacled among us was nailed to the executioner's stake, there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Yeshua Ha Meshiach(Jesus the Messiah). Therefore, don't let anyone judge you regarding how you keep Ha Torah, which includes the Shabbot. However, there are still blessings and curses that follow from keeping Ha Torah in general and Shabbat in particular. We are not to question anyones salvation based on the details of Ha Torah.
That said, though we are obligated to inform others of the blessings and curses related to the keeping of Shabbat, we are not to condemn them should they choose to forgo those blessings and risk those curses.
I am not familiar with those terms like "Ha Torah" or "Cohen Hagadol" ??
but if I understood correctly, you are saying that since Jesus crucifixion there is no condemnation for those who are in Him; In another words, you can have other gods and not been condemn? Commit adultery and no condemnation? Kill and not been condemn?
Lets read the verse that you mention:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Now please notice that it says that there is no condemnation for those “who do not walk according to the flesh, BUT according to the Spirit” what that means is, for example:
I do not kill because the law says do not kill – this is according with the flesh.
I do not kill because I love my neighbor – This is according with the Spirit.
I do not commit adultery because the law says so.—according with the flesh.
I do not commit adultery because I love my wife or husband. -- According with the Spirit
Same for the Sabbath day.
He said I will put My laws in your heart
Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
God always intended that these laws should be written on the hearts of the people, He always condemn those who are content with only an external religion.
Not too many people know that when God talk about to put the laws in the heart; comes from the OT; lets read:
Ezekiel 36:26, 27. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Here we can read about the laws put within the heart, the Spirit within you; but all this is for you to “walk in my statutes” and to “keep my judgments” not to void them.
< Message edited by HisPriest -- 4/21/2008 7:22:48 PM >
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/22/2008 10:40:33 AM
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LBolt
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This goes hand in hand with the discussion on the Law thread. I here soo much rhetoric about the New Covenant and us not having to keep sabbath anymore because it was "fulfilled in Christ"...but here we read in Ezekiel and Jeremiah exactly what the New Covenant is. The Torah being wrote on our heart and mind.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/22/2008 7:11:22 PM
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Bluethread
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Sorry, I misread your name as HighPriest, not His Priest. However, being His Priest, I would think you would be familiar with Ha Torah(The Word).
quote:
I am not familiar with those terms like "Ha Torah" or "Cohen Hagadol" ??
but if I understood correctly, you are saying that since Jesus crucifixion there is no condemnation for those who are in Him; In another words, you can have other gods and not been condemn? Commit adultery and no condemnation? Kill and not been condemn?
So we understand each other, I would not say, "since Jesus' crucifixion there is no condemnation" from now on, but, because of Yeshua's(Jesus') sacrifice there is no condemnation past, present and future. Therefore, those who once served other gods in ignorance are not condemned now that they serve Adonai. I think you and I agree regarding how we are to serve. As Yeshua tells us, Shabbat was made for man not man for Shabbat. We serve not out of obligation but out of a thankful heart, believing that Adonai has put His blessing on some activities and has cursed other activities for our benefit.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2008 3:48:21 PM
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HisPriest
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Sorry, I misread your name as HighPriest, not His Priest. However, being His Priest, I would think you would be familiar with Ha Torah(The Word).
quote:
I am not familiar with those terms like "Ha Torah" or "Cohen Hagadol" ??
but if I understood correctly, you are saying that since Jesus crucifixion there is no condemnation for those who are in Him; In another words, you can have other gods and not been condemn? Commit adultery and no condemnation? Kill and not been condemn?
So we understand each other, I would not say, "since Jesus' crucifixion there is no condemnation" from now on, but, because of Yeshua's(Jesus') sacrifice there is no condemnation past, present and future. Therefore, those who once served other gods in ignorance are not condemned now that they serve Adonai. I think you and I agree regarding how we are to serve. As Yeshua tells us, Shabbat was made for man not man for Shabbat. We serve not out of obligation but out of a thankful heart, believing that Adonai has put His blessing on some activities and has cursed other activities for our benefit.
Well, I was going to color all the good points, but there are too many; lets star with:
"since Jesus crucifixion there is not condemnation" yes, but what that means is that all the civil laws that says "if you don't keep the Sabbath should be kill" is void; but the great moral law still binding.
you said "from now on because Jesus sacrifice there is not condemnation, past, present and future" Jesus forgive the sins of our firs parents Adam and Eve, and because them everyone after them had the same penalty and that is death, He die for them,(since Adam until Jesus), in another words before no matter if you confese your sins, no matter if you was a perfect person, your desteny was eternal death, but no more since Jesus took the penalty. Now in the present if we sin we can confese our sins to God through Him, He will intercide for us, and the same in the future, He give us the assurance that He will forgive our sins, IF we confese.
To serve the laws of God is been the same for ever, not out of obligation but out of love. this is nothing new.
I am sorry for bad spellings, I am at work in my 15 minute break, got to go
God bless.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/23/2008 4:35:48 PM
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Bluethread
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HisPriest:
Your argument shows greek linear thinking. That is, A came before B, therefore, B cannot effect A. I believe the Scriptures teach that Adonai is not bound by time. Therefore, Adam and Eve were forgiven from the foundation of the world by the sacrifice of (Re 13:8B) the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. To get back to the topic, this tells us that if Shabbat is not required now due to Yeshua's sacrifice, it would not have been necessary then either. In conclusion, Shabbat was, is and always shall be observed out of thankfulness and not compulsion, knowing that Adonai has ordained it for our benefit.
Re 13:8B the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/23/2008 5:12:56 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2008 2:32:38 PM
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HisPriest
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
HisPriest:
Your argument shows greek linear thinking. That is, A came before B, therefore, B cannot effect A. I believe the Scriptures teach that Adonai is not bound by time. Therefore, Adam and Eve were forgiven from the foundation of the world by the sacrifice of (Re 13:8B) the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. To get back to the topic, this tells us that if Shabbat is not required now due to Yeshua's sacrifice, it would not have been necessary then either. In conclusion, Shabbat was, is and always shall be observed out of thankfulness and not compulsion, knowing that Adonai has ordained it for our benefit.
Re 13:8B the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
Well, I am not going to argue with you and your filosophy, I just know that the Sabbath is part of creation, and as all what God's creation is perfect and was created before sin came to this world, then He sanctified and make it Holy (set appart) for us to have a very special day of worship with Him, and please do not confuse as the only day of worship, we should worship Him every day and evey minute of our lifes; but this day is very special for HIM and if this day is special for HIM; than is special for me too.
We read that on this day we will worship Him in heaven also, So, is your choice I guess.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2008 3:59:13 PM
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Bluethread
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The sabbath is for our benefit, as Yeshua(Jesus) tells us, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2008 5:52:00 PM
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mcleod
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Say try this spin on your verse in Revelation which could say; "written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain"
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 1:12:48 AM
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HisPriest
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The sabbath is for our benefit, as Yeshua(Jesus) tells us, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Agreed
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 9:12:03 AM
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LBolt
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Regarding the Sabbath...it is from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown and yes we are to observe Sabbath. There are a plethora number of scripture which attests to that.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 9:44:21 AM
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ken1906_4
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Thanks for bumping this back to the top. I have quite a bit of reading to do.
@Lbolt
I never really looked into the Sabbath until recently. I just looked at it as being on Sunday and it was the day we go to church.
What you stated is what I have been studying and I'm trying to get an idea if we got it wrong by observing the Sabbath on Sunday instead of sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Of course this is not the determining factor if one goes to Heaven or hell, but as a Christian I am finding difficulty being bounded by the New Covenant and ignoring the old. In some arguments I have had people to reference commands and stories from the old covenant to support their argument while ignoring what Jesus commanded us to do, but then flip it and do the opposite. Anyway, my interest in the Sabbath was sparked after having conversation with an Adventis co-worker.
_____________________________
"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 9:52:05 AM
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JimboFletch
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Read Hebrews 9. I understand from that chapter that the observance of the 7th day rest was, like many ceremonial aspects of the Law, a mere shadow of Jesus Christ.
Jesus, not a date on the calendar, is our sabbath.
I, like many Christians during the past 2000 or so years, choose to commemorate His perfect rest by assembling with fellow believers on the the Lord's Day, Sunday.
The sabbath is from the day of our rebirth through... well... eternity!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 11:10:37 AM
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ken1906_4
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Read Hebrews 9. I understand from that chapter that the observance of the 7th day rest was, like many ceremonial aspects of the Law, a mere shadow of Jesus Christ.
Jesus, not a date on the calendar, is our sabbath.
I, like many Christians during the past 2000 or so years, choose to commemorate His perfect rest by assembling with fellow believers on the the Lord's Day, Sunday.
The sabbath is from the day of our rebirth through... well... eternity!
Read Hebrews, 4:9 and 10 and it does describe Jesus as being the Sabbath rest. Gotcha. 
much appreciated. It really does not give a command though.
I read Hebrews a few times and this is the 1st time this has registered with me. Hebrews pretty much states that we our no longer bounded by the laws of the old covenant. I have a question about that, but I'm quite sure there is another thread that will answer it.
Anyway, so who determined that Sunday was the Lord's Day? Is Sunday the beginning of the week or the end of the week?
_____________________________
"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 2:13:34 PM
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bjay0801
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Sunday was always known as the Venerable Day of the Sun or the invincible sun, a title given to molech. Constatine made a decree that all christians should worship on sunday and ignore the commandment to remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. This was due more so to bring political union between the "church" and those who were not christians. SO man changed, not God.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 2:29:32 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
Anyway, so who determined that Sunday was the Lord's Day? Is Sunday the beginning of the week or the end of the week?
Since Jesus arose from the dead on the First Day of the Week, I'd say He was the one to determine it.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 2:31:26 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Sunday was always known as the Venerable Day of the Sun or the invincible sun, a title given to molech. Constatine made a decree that all christians should worship on sunday and ignore the commandment to remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. This was due more so to bring political union between the "church" and those who were not christians. SO man changed, not God.
Well, sir, then we cannot worship on Saturday, since it was also named for a pagan god.
You really are bound up in legalism, aren't you?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 6:41:22 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Since Jesus arose from the dead on the First Day of the Week, I'd say He was the one to determine it.
It is not clear whether Mr 16:9 actually says, "When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene . . ." It could say, "When Jesus rose, early on the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene . . ." If the later is the case He could have risen befor the end of the Sabbath. That is also the only gospel that records the phrase, "When Jesus rose . . ." The ohter three simply say that the women came to the tomb early on the first day of the week.
That said, even if He did risen early on the first day of the week, neither He or any of the Apostles even suggest that we observe the first day of the week as a day of worship. I would think that something as important as changing the day of rest from the seventh to the first day would be established by more than one implication in one gospel regarding the time of the ressurrection.
I would also think that Yeshua(Jesus) rising from His rest to intercede for us in heaven would be an example for us to rise from our rest to make intercession for Him here on earth.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 8:43:13 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
It is not clear whether Mr 16:9 actually says, "When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene . . ." It could say, "When Jesus rose, early on the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene . . ." If the later is the case He could have risen befor the end of the Sabbath. That is also the only gospel that records the phrase, "When Jesus rose . . ." The ohter three simply say that the women came to the tomb early on the first day of the week.
Do any seriously credential scholars support such a translation? I seriously doubt it. Do you know of any translation that so translates it? You attempt to obscure the matter simply because it does not fit with the conclusion you desire.
quote:
That said, even if He did risen early on the first day of the week, neither He or any of the Apostles even suggest that we observe the first day of the week as a day of worship. I would think that something as important as changing the day of rest from the seventh to the first day would be established by more than one implication in one gospel regarding the time of the ressurrection.
Indeed. The Sabbath was not changed. Sabbath observance went out with the Law.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 10:21:36 AM
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LBolt
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The eternal Sabbath has been revived in Crosswalk!! Grahamcracker, you don't have one scripture to support Sabbath "going out with the Law."
The scripture which seem to suggest that Christ rose on the 1st day of the week actually would have been better translated first Sabbath.
Look at those scriptures in all the gospels... it says "first day of the week" Day was added possible due to a biased translator to a Sunday resurrection but "day" is has several possible renderings in the NT. One is "hemera", another is "auge", "epautophoroi", "semeron", "aurion" and "arti". Not one of these words is found in the passages concerning the resurrection.
Now, Christ could have rose on a Wednesday and it would not change the Sabbath day frfom Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. The eternal scriptures declare that we are to observe the Sabbath. Our heavenly Father gave us an example in Genesis 2:1-3, it was Yahshua's custom to keep Sabbath and it was Paul's "manner" (same Greek word as custom) to keep Sabbath (Luke 4:16 and Acts 17:2)
I don't care what the "credentialed scholars say" what does the Bible say? If those "credentialed scholars" don't say what the Bible say...let the scriptures be true and everyone else...
In fact Sabbath will be around in the New Heaven and New Earth because Isaiah 66:23 says,"And it shall come to pass, that frfrom one new moon to another, and from one SABBATH to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, SAITH THE LORD"
Jesus in his two fold end-time discourse exhorted the disciples to pray that their "flight be not on the Sabbath..." If Sabbath was everyday as some "credentialed scholars" and well repected preachers and teachers, then the advise the LORD gave would not make much sense at all! I believe that there is no error in God so the ones who don't make any sense is the "credentialed and well respected preachers" on this matter concerning Sabbath.
Hebrew 3 and 4 is clearly talking about Messiah's Sabbath rest. The word day in Strong's refers literal referrs to the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours. He was not referring to a particular person but a certain day and particular Person gave us. The devil and Tradition has beguiled the 2nd Adam's bride!! Come on people it is plain as day!!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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