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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/17/2007 7:09:13 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5244
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
Not only are Christian families and churches not doing what is needed to prevent premarital sex,
How about listing what you feel the Church should be doing to help prevent the sin of premarital sex.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/17/2007 7:38:31 PM
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roboteer
Posts: 213
Joined: 2/23/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
We should not act like the second bullet - full stop - we should leave things to the elders and in fact be supportive in what will be a difficult situation for the family. One of the issues of the situation is becoming public in the first bullet is that people start acting as in the second bullet.
I must admit re the first point, I am not sure. In life generally I tend to take the view that no-one else tells me what to do. They can suggest, we can discuss, I can submit to their leadership for a specific purpose, but no-one actually has the authority to tell.
In reality I support the elders of my church in leading the church - but outside specific church activities they don't attempt to control my life in any way - they don't know a great deal other than what I happen to have shared with them.
I'm no sure how much authority they have over me - nor am I sure how much they should have. I must admit that on a day to day basis I do not really see myself as accountable to them for what I do - and they don't look at things like that too. They are generally supportive of me though.
If one is part of a local body of Christ, a church that is running in proper order, then Biblically the Church has the resposibility to deal with those in that body who continue in sin, in the manner described in the New Testament, whatever our individual feelings may be. This is true whether one sins 'at church' or outside of the activities of the church, because the church isn't a product of buildings or activities. If one doesn't care for this, no one can make one stay, and leaving is always an option. But that is the Biblical standard.
I kind of realise that really.
Although what are the verses people tend to quote for that view? What is the argument that they build up? It may be useful to understand just what level of authority the (local) church in fact has over us according to the Bible.
What level of authority do people feel the Bible sets out for the church in relation to our lives when we haven't sinned significantly and need censure/ help? I notice there are churches where the leadership do look to be fairly controlling over what members do or do not do.
Perhaps - using my situation as an example - I am treating myself as an associate of my church, rather than someone who is under its authority. Although I would always take the view that I am under God's authority.
For me I'm not some maverick by the way - I should point that out - I respect and support the elders and other members of my church.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/17/2007 9:29:29 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3523
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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I am not sure the website is still up but our church put a billboard on a major highway here with two pairs of feet exposed under a sheet with this website below it...
thebarenakedtruthaboutsex.com
With no mention of a church being involved.
It was a three week study of sex from a biblical standpoint...very direct. For one sermon the pastor used a bed, on stage, to illustrate his points.
Not all churches skate over this issue.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/18/2007 1:51:47 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7511
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Although what are the verses people tend to quote for that view? What is the argument that they build up? It may be useful to understand just what level of authority the (local) church in fact has over us according to the Bible.
What level of authority do people feel the Bible sets out for the church in relation to our lives when we haven't sinned significantly and need censure/ help? I notice there are churches where the leadership do look to be fairly controlling over what members do or do not do.
Perhaps - using my situation as an example - I am treating myself as an associate of my church, rather than someone who is under its authority. Although I would always take the view that I am under God's authority.
Well, here are a couple of verses that guide us concerning the authority of leaders in the church:
1 Peter 5:1-5
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. You younger men , likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD , BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.
Notice especially the first one - there are two parts; that leaders are to lead not through compulsion, but understanding the voluntary nature of service - and the second part to us as members of the body of Christ, that we submit or be subject to their authority with humility. This in my mind would suggest something more than just 'association' (that's not a slam - such a notion is exceedingly common today).
What often happens in such circumstances is that either party (leaders, and the church body) wants to try to enforce the command God has given the other; leaders want congregants to submit to authority, those being lead want the leader to not be overbearing.
But we are primarily responsible for ourselves and our obedience, and if everyone does what they ought, in ultimate submission to Christ, then the rest works out.
Hope that is helpful.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/18/2007 7:56:26 PM
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scarygirl
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In my own true style of never being able to shut up, I have to speak my mind on this. I was born in 1973, the year of Roe VS. Wade. My mother, conceived me out of wedlock, but due to being shamed to no end by her family, those that proposed to have loved her, she married my father. Despite the contradicts of many here and the rest of the Christian community that was her BIGGEST mistake. Not having sex out of wedlock, not getting pregnant, but marrying someone and staying with someone who proved time and time again to not be capable of true love, care, respect or even financial stabilty.
Did my mother sin? Yes. Did my father sin? But two wrongs don't make a right. One bad decision begats another bad decision begats another. And the children suffer. I won't go into detail, but we, that's me and my sister would have been better off if her family instead of shaming her had supported her into making better decisions for the after. Being married is only as good as the person you're married to. Not all kids need both parents. Particularly, when one parent is trying to show a good example, and the other is not. It's counter intutive to a child's healthy sense of self. It's counterintutive when one parent shows a good example, and the other is acting like Sodom's Henchman.
I've heard it said, that the reason why single mothers are in poverty is due to not having a married partner. I'm here to tell you, that it's just not true. For one thing, not all single mothers live in poverty, and another, not all women who marry there baby's fathers prospers much better. If said father, or mother for that matter chooses to be a lay about, run around, not work, and run up bills right and left what good does it do to be married other than for the sake of being married?
My mother in her effort to follow God's supposed will stay married and endured many things for the sake of us children. And we learned. All the wrong things. But even so, I know with all my heart that upon the age of 18 I was my own product. You can choose to let your past shape you or not. Even so, sometimes the choice that appears most correct is not the correct one at all. Instead it is a front for an even bigger lie, that all is well. All is not well! If all were well, you wouldn't have fallen into that choice in the first place. Better yet, you wouldnt continue in the thing that got you into that shape in the first place.
I know a lot of people won't agree with me, and they'll throw the Bible to prove their prejudice, but unless you have lived what I and countless other children have lived through you don't know. And yes, we would have been better off with a single mother. She pretty much did everything for us anyway.
< Message edited by scarygirl -- 10/19/2007 1:20:59 AM >
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/18/2007 8:10:37 PM
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scarygirl
Posts: 55
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For the love of Christmas eve don't hold this pregnancy over the girl's head and thus the child. I didn't know about my status until I was thirteen and it was blurted out, and not in a nice way. I p understand perfectly what Jenny is saying. The stench of double standard is strong. I never, ever, see men admonished for their sins in the same way as women. If she embarrassed your family, so did the father.
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: daisies4u
But here is the thing, when are we (Christians gonna stand up for what is right? I know that we all sin. But there is a difference between sinning and living a lifestyle of sin. I may stump my toe and say something ugly. I will ask for forgiviness and move on with my life. But if I am knowingly living a life that goes against God's word, then I think it is time for someone to stand up and say that it is wrong.
Unfortunately, many sins have outward consequences (good and/or bad) and in the case of your niece, there is a child that is not going away. In order for you to prepare for this child, the problem of your embarrassment needs to be addressed or there could be even more consequences that will directly affect this child as they grow up in your church. Attitudes of embarrassment are not easily hidden and children are prone to questions.
This child is the result of an act, not a lifestyle from what you said. So, the presence of a baby is a potential reminder for you of your niece's sin and that reminder is not a lifestyle.
As for standing up as Christians...we all have to do that every day of our life. We repent daily of our sins and then by nightfall, we're sinning again. I just don't get that your niece is living the life of a fornicator, jumping into bed with every boy she meets.
Is she still in leadership in ministry would be my only real question. IMO, she should be counseled/discipled or at the very least sit down with the youth and discuss the issue of premarital sex with them froma biblical standpoint.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/18/2007 10:40:05 PM
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amannoftruth
Posts: 1039
Joined: 11/27/2006
From: Flyover country
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quote:
I know a lot of people won't agree with me, and they'll throw the Bible to prove their prejudice,
If something is supported by the Bible, then it's not prejudice.
_____________________________
"God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. Ps 7
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/18/2007 10:53:44 PM
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amannoftruth
Posts: 1039
Joined: 11/27/2006
From: Flyover country
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quote:
I've heard it said, that the reason why single mothers are in poverty is due to not having a married partner. I'm here to tell you, that it's just not true.
I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but you can't generalize based on your personal experience. The statistics are what they are. A much greater percentage of single-parent homes are at or below the poverty level that two-parent households.
Of course not every man who fathers a child would make a great dad or husband, but whose fault is it if a woman sleeps with someone she doesn't intend to marry?
_____________________________
"God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. Ps 7
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 12:03:52 AM
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scarygirl
Posts: 55
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Show me where in the Bible it says you automatically marry the father or the mother due to one mistake? No matter the type of person they are. As to people being in poverty, single mother or no, it's not one mistep that throws you in, it's a series of bad choices.
For example, I have some credit card debt. I'm paying it off. I didn't fall into debt due to one charge. I fell into debt because I didn't pay off that first charge in full right away. I compounded the problem over and over again with many charges and not paying them off in a timely manner.
I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand, that marriage due to pregnancy isn't always for the best. The sin, the sex act is done. You don't further compound the sin by marrying someone who wasn't necessarily the best choice in the first place.
As to who's responsible , they both are, but I don't see that in this thread or any other thread presented on this topic. Also, parents are responsible in the sense they shouldn't be shaming anyone into marriage for the sake of "The family," particularly when they see red flags.
What they should do is, and I wish this had been done with my family is encourage the woman to
A. NOt give up on her dreams. If she has a scholarship to University, offer to take care of the baby while she attends. One of the reasons some not all single mothers are in poverty is because there education is cut short. With very few exceptions now a days, a high school diploma only equals minimum wage.
and
B. Be supportive. Being supportive is not the same as condoning. One way of being supportive is sit down with them and examining their actions, and encouraging them thoughtfully on how to make better choices. At the same time, you don't keep bringing up the sin over and over again. Does the bible not say those that trust in God and confess their sins to him and ask for forgiveness are forgiven? What about the woman at the well? When the crowd was ready to stone her, he said, those without sin cast the first stone. Not one of them could, so they let her go. He also told her go and sin no more. That was that, he didn't say, oh, and you need to apologize to your family every five minutes.
Since we're talking about sin. The OP said the niece embarrassed the family. By dwelling on it, aren't the engaging in the sin of pride?
quote:
ORIGINAL: amannoftruth
quote:
I know a lot of people won't agree with me, and they'll throw the Bible to prove their prejudice,
If something is supported by the Bible, then it's not prejudice.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 12:32:47 AM
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amannoftruth
Posts: 1039
Joined: 11/27/2006
From: Flyover country
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quote:
Show me where in the Bible it says you automatically marry the father or the mother due to one mistake? No matter the type of person they are.
Actually, the Bible goes further than that. Paul said if you can't exercise self-control, then you should marry. In other words, the Bible does address your question above, because a person is directed to get married before having sex.
But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. 1 Co 7:8-9
quote:
I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand, that marriage due to pregnancy isn't always for the best. The sin, the sex act is done. You don't further compound the sin by marrying someone who wasn't necessarily the best choice in the first place.
That's why people shouldn't have sex outside of marriage. Yes, I know everyone makes mistakes, but I kind of have a problem with the idea that, not only is the sin is behind me, so no one can judge me for that, but they also can't judge me for the continuing problems that are the consequences of my sin.
It seemed like in years past, the man normally married the woman he got pregnant. I suggest that there were a lot fewer single-parent households, fewer people living in poverty, and not a very high percentage of miserable marriages resulting from the man marrying the woman.
_____________________________
"God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. Ps 7
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 1:57:12 AM
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scarygirl
Posts: 55
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Hers and HIS both. My situation is VERY common. Try reality for a while. Leave It To A Beaver is a lie.
quote:
ORIGINAL: amannoftruth
quote:
I've heard it said, that the reason why single mothers are in poverty is due to not having a married partner. I'm here to tell you, that it's just not true.
I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but you can't generalize based on your personal experience. The statistics are what they are. A much greater percentage of single-parent homes are at or below the poverty level that two-parent households.
Of course not every man who fathers a child would make a great dad or husband, but whose fault is it if a woman sleeps with someone she doesn't intend to marry?
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 8:31:51 AM
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amannoftruth
Posts: 1039
Joined: 11/27/2006
From: Flyover country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: scarygirl
Hers and HIS both. My situation is VERY common. Try reality for a while. Leave It To A Beaver is a lie.
quote:
ORIGINAL: amannoftruth
quote:
I've heard it said, that the reason why single mothers are in poverty is due to not having a married partner. I'm here to tell you, that it's just not true.
I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but you can't generalize based on your personal experience. The statistics are what they are. A much greater percentage of single-parent homes are at or below the poverty level that two-parent households.
Of course not every man who fathers a child would make a great dad or husband, but whose fault is it if a woman sleeps with someone she doesn't intend to marry?
I know your situation is very common. That's what makes it so disturbing. That fact that it is common does not make it any more right.
I'm sorry, but I grew up in the "Leave it to Beaver" era, and things WERE different then. Was it perfect? No. But when people made bad decisions they accepted the consequences, and the societal stigma, and didn't try to divert attention by blaming others for not being supportive enough. People felt true remorse, and accepted the responsibility for their actions, instead of whining about how unloving and judgmental others were being if they had a hard time accepting the situation.
Yes, it takes two to bring about a pregnancy, but it only takes one to prevent it. And we are primarily talking about the woman in this thread. A woman who is pregnant cannot blame the man, unless it was a rape situation.
_____________________________
"God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. Ps 7
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 10:37:37 AM
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doinkdom
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The commonality of the situation has been "common" for decades. It has only been in recent years that the women who aborted or adopted out their children have had the platform to speak.
So commonality aside, I think the church as a local body of believers does have some responsibility when it comes to caring for our children and raising them up in fear and awe of our Lord. That said...the church is not responsible for the actual sin, but only how they, as a body, react to it.
This boy and girl sinned, yes. We get that. What do we do now with it? We continue to teach and care for our children. We forgive as God forgave us.
We must not confuse the act of fornication with the resulting child of that sin. The child is not the sin. This girl has repented of the sin, but as a result she has another life to be responsible for and all that ensues from that choice.
Her outward repentence cannot be judged based on her keeping this child. She may never have sex again...but that doesn't change the fact of this baby coming into the world. And that baby should NOT be treated as a reminder of sin, but a gift from a holy God who will take what we want to be bad and use it for good to glorify Himself.
Yes, I do agree that our culture is far too accepting of the single parents who purposefully get pregnant because of the attitude that you don't need mom and dad in a relationship to do so. It is quite selfish to do this intentionally. We have seen it in celebrities and we have seen it in people who just don't want to be bothered with the work it takes to have a relationship.
The particular case in the OP is not the same.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 10:46:12 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4131
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From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
A woman who is pregnant cannot blame the man, unless it was a rape situation.
I honestly don't think it's about blame, but shared responsibility with the boy, which simply does not happen. The weight of the sin lies with the girl and in most cases, the boy is never seen as sinful.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 11:10:30 AM
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amannoftruth
Posts: 1039
Joined: 11/27/2006
From: Flyover country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
A woman who is pregnant cannot blame the man, unless it was a rape situation.
I honestly don't think it's about blame, but shared responsibility with the boy, which simply does not happen. The weight of the sin lies with the girl and in most cases, the boy is never seen as sinful.
I agree that both are responsible, and if I was talking to the boy, I would tell him as much. But this thread isn't about the man; it's about the woman, primarily. And it is single mothers with whom we are discussing this.
The other thing you have to keep in mind is that out-of-wedlock pregnancies don't just affect the mother, but the rest of us as well. A large percentage of them end up on welfare for some period of time, with the rest of us footing the bill.
I agree with your previous post as well, except I don't think premarital sex was anywhere near as common 40 years ago as it is today.
_____________________________
"God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. Ps 7
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 11:36:00 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4131
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
I agree with your previous post as well, except I don't think premarital sex was anywhere near as common 40 years ago as it is today.
Yeah I know it's my own experience, but I have 4 generations of women in my family who would completely disagree - none of them were unwed mothers, but they each had more than one girlfriends who gave up babies for adoption.
quote:
The other thing you have to keep in mind is that out-of-wedlock pregnancies don't just affect the mother, but the rest of us as well. A large percentage of them end up on welfare for some period of time, with the rest of us footing the bill.
But yet, we continue to place the burden of that sin only upon the woman. I get the financial ramifications of being a single parent, and women are by far the ones raising children alone...but we're not really talking about those who treat themselves as baby factories living off the state. We're talking about a Christian girl who did not say no to sin and must now live her life struggling with pleasing her family in their embarrassment rather than glorifying God in raising this child.
I guess we all see things differently from our own perceptions. I know I have changed my mind several times when I've finally come down from my mountain and gotten into the trenches of discipleship and loving the unlovable.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 3:35:53 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1428
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quote:
Just think how much less sin there would be in the Body if we had to publicly confess our sins before the church!
Yes, and just think how much less sin there'd be if we branded the letter "A" on everyone who sinned so they would grovel in shame and humiliation..
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 3:37:48 PM
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SD456
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quote:
We are all human, and I think it is a normal human response from a family who has been seeking to be salt and light to the world, and perhaps now feel their Christian witness has been diminished.
Then I think what this family bases their christian witness on is completely erroneous.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 3:44:18 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4131
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From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
We are all human, and I think it is a normal human response from a family who has been seeking to be salt and light to the world, and perhaps now feel their Christian witness has been diminished.
Then I think what this family bases their christian witness on is completely erroneous.
It would also appear (although I really don't believe this to be the case with the OP) that a family thinks very highly of itself to assume they have no sin amongst themselves. Or they have hidden their sin so well...people are shocked.
I'm tellin' ya - if/when the time comes and I publicly sin - I would pray that those around me would say "yep, I knew that about her - she struggled with that." No surprise cause I had been transparent enough in my relationships that people would know. Just lovingly pick my sorry behind up and point me to the Cross.
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 3:59:34 PM
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SD456
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quote:
People felt true remorse, and accepted the responsibility for their actions, instead of whining about how unloving and judgmental others were being if they had a hard time accepting the situation.
Yes, I agree, that we tend to live in a "victim mentallity" society today. People do tend to blame others for their failures. You can't necessarily blame the parents of an unwed mother. I know parents who were awesome and wise in raising their kids and one or more of their kids still fell awy from the church and into sin. but eventually, through their own long painful journeys they came to know Christ and follow him.
But you also can't condemn someone who falls. The consequence they have to live with is raising a child alone, and that's very hard.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 4:07:23 PM
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Nesher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
Just think how much less sin there would be in the Body if we had to publicly confess our sins before the church!
Yes, and just think how much less sin there'd be if we branded the letter "A" on everyone who sinned so they would grovel in shame and humiliation..
What was proposed, that you mock, is actually prescribed in the Bible. Is the Bible wrong?
_____________________________
"Acceptance of the current [physicalist] views is motivated not so much by an independent conviction of their truth as by a terror of what are apparently the only alternatives." John Searle
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 4:10:33 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
Yeah I know it's my own experience, but I have 4 generations of women in my family who would completely disagree - none of them were unwed mothers, but they each had more than one girlfriends who gave up babies for adoption.
Yes, I must agree here. Speaking to my grandmother and great-aunts, sex before marriage was common even in their day...it was just way more hidden. And unwed mothers were not uncommon either - they all knew women who got pregnant before marriage. The only difference was that most of the girls would be shipped away somewhere so that the community didn't know they were pregnant and the child was adopted out. The girl came back and never let anyone know that she'd had a baby.
So I don't believe that today there is much MORE of this, I think that it's just not hidden away any more and many more women are keeping their babies. So it just LOOKS like there is more.
My parents married back in the early 50's because my mother got pregnant. It was a long, terrible marriage with no compatibility in any area. It would have been better if they hadn't wed, but then that wasn't done back then.
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 5:37:30 PM
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amannoftruth
Posts: 1039
Joined: 11/27/2006
From: Flyover country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
Just think how much less sin there would be in the Body if we had to publicly confess our sins before the church!
Yes, and just think how much less sin there'd be if we branded the letter "A" on everyone who sinned so they would grovel in shame and humiliation..
The first is biblical; the second is not.
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"God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
The New King James Version. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1982, S. Ps 7
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RE: Single and Pregnant - 10/19/2007 5:57:37 PM
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believeinhim2
Posts: 605
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Yes, it takes two to bring about a pregnancy, but it only takes one to prevent it. And we are primarily talking about the woman in this thread. A woman who is pregnant cannot blame the man, unless it was a rape situation.
This is the most rediculous thing i have read so far in this thread.
Wether or not we are discussing the woman is irrelevant to whose responsibility being "protected" was.
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~mandi~
myspace
Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation. 2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray. Ps5:1-2
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