America's founding fathers

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rosswell59 -> America's founding fathers (11/2/2007 12:15:59 AM)
Here's a link which shows the extent of freemasonry in the origins of our country: http://www.watch.pair.com/mason.html Yours in Christ, Ross

Deleted User -> [Deleted] (11/2/2007 12:25:53 AM)
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rosswell59 -> RE: America's founding fathers (11/2/2007 12:32:40 AM)
This was a discussion which began on the president thread. Someone said that this country was founded on Christian principles and I responded that it actually was founded on Masonic principles. I posted the above post and was told by the moderator to stop the discussion on that thread and start a new one if I wanted to continue the discussion. I posted it here so people could respond. Yours in Christ, Ross

Jhud -> RE: America's founding fathers (11/2/2007 10:56:47 AM)
quote: This was a discussion which began on the president thread. Someone said that this country was founded on Christian principles and I responded that it actually was founded on Masonic principles. I posted the above post and was told by the moderator to stop the discussion on that thread and start a new one if I wanted to continue the discussion. I posted it here so people could respond. I think it is important to note a few things; first that a number of men (and women) contributed to the Founding of our country, and some were certainly Christians, and some were probably Masons; a number were certainly Deists. Also, the Founders were probably above all pragmatists (of the old fashioned sort, not neccesarily in the modern philosophical sense) and were keen observers of history, as well as being firmly ensconced in a Christian world view. They incorporated in the founding and development of our government lessons from history as well as their beliefs about human nature, many of which were specifically derived from Christian priniciples. If one wants to see the specfic arguements and principles which went into founding our country, one should definitely read The Federalist Papers, which provide a comprehensive and detailed description of the thinking that went into the development of the Cosntitution.

Timcp -> RE: America's founding fathers (12/25/2007 8:59:37 PM)
The men who signed the constitution were Christian. You can search any one of these men and find this out in various sources using the internet. Notice, Thomas Jefferson never signed the Constitution. How people can say that the Founders were secret satan worshipers, which the site hinted at, I don't get. If you let the men speak for themselves, by reading their own quotes, and looking at what they did in their own lives, shows plainly that the majority were Christian. Would any satan worshiper allow themselves to be buried in a Church cemetery? Below is a list of all the men who signed the Constitution and their Christian denomination they belonged to. (1): Daniel Carroll Maryland Catholic Thomas Fitzsimons Pennsylvania Catholic Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist Nathaniel Gorham Massachusetts Congregationalist John Langdon New Hampshire Congregationalist Nicholas Gilman New Hampshire Congregationalist Abraham Baldwin Georgia Congregationalist; Episcopalian William Samuel Johnson Connecticut Episcopalian; Presbyterian James Madison Jr. Virginia Episcopalian George Read Delaware Episcopalian Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer Maryland Episcopalian David Brearly New Jersey Episcopalian Richard Dobbs Spaight, Sr. North Carolina Episcopalian Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian Gouverneur Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian John Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian Charles Cotesworth Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian Charles Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian Pierce Butler South Carolina Episcopalian George Washington Virginia Episcopalian Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian William Blount North Carolina Episcopalian; Presbyterian James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyteran Rufus King Massachusetts Episcopalian; Congregationalist Jacob Broom Delaware Lutheran William Few Georgia Methodist Richard Bassett Delaware Methodist Gunning Bedford Jr. Delaware Presbyterian James McHenry Maryland Presbyterian William Livingston New Jersey Presbyterian William Paterson New Jersey Presbyterian Hugh Williamson North Carolina Presbyterian Jared Ingersoll Pennsylvania Presbyterian Alexander Hamilton New York Huguenot; Presbyterian; Episcopalian Jonathan Dayton New Jersey Presbyterian; Episcopalian John Blair Virginia Presbyterian; Episcopalian John Dickinson Delaware Quaker; Episcopalian George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker; Episcopalian Thomas Mifflin Pennsylvania Quaker; Lutheran Name of Non-Signing Delegate State Religious Affiliation Oliver Ellsworth Connecticut Congregationalist Caleb Strong Massachusetts Congregationalist John Lansing, Jr. New York Dutch Reformed Robert Yates New York Dutch Reformed William Houstoun Georgia Episcopalian William Leigh Pierce Georgia Episcopalian Luther Martin Maryland Episcopalian John F. Mercer Maryland Episcopalian Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian George Mason Virginia Episcopalian Edmund J. Randolph Virginia Episcopalian George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian James McClurg Virginia Presbyterian William C. Houston New Jersey Presbyterian William R. Davie North Carolina Presbyterian Alexander Martin North Carolina Presbyterian 1.http://www.archives.gov/national-arc...g_fathers.html

FurGodWurLivin -> RE: America's founding fathers (12/27/2007 2:49:02 AM)
A quote from Carman's song "America"... quote: Of the 55 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, 52 were active members of their church. The fun part... I know several men who are devout Christians who are members of various Masonic groups. I don't think the Masons are a healthy social club, or even that compatable with Christian beliefs, but there are many Christians who are oblivious to the somewhat sinister leanings of freemasonry and join up. This does not, IMO, put their salvation in jeopardy. So I think it is quite possible both sides are right on this one. Adam

timf -> RE: America's founding fathers (12/27/2007 8:05:42 AM)
Of the 55 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, 52 were active members of their church. Romans 13:1-7 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. It is difficult to hold high people claiming Christ yet turning their backs on His word.

SealedEternal -> RE: America's founding fathers (12/27/2007 9:16:41 PM)
Certainly the plan was laid out in advance for America to become the New Atlantis, by Sir Francis Bacon an Englishman who was a high level Mason and Rosicrucian working behind the scenes before the New World was founded. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Ben Franklin were confirmed to be high level Freemasons themselves, as were most if not all of the other founders. They came to this land with a specific agenda to prepare the way for the eartly utopia of Atlantis to be resurrected, or in other words to lay the foundation for the "New World Order." And Lucifer "the light bearer" is the god of Freemasonry and the hero of the plot in their minds. They believe that the serpent enlightened mankind in the garden of Eden, and that the true God is the evil one because He wanted to keep the enlightening knowledge from them. They also believe that only the high level Masons are the enlightened ones, and therefore worthy of controlling the world. Here's some quotes from high level Masonic authors: 'The Mysteries Of Magic' by Eliphas Levi "What is more absurd and more impious than to attribute the name of Lucifer to the devil, that is, to personified evil. The intellectual Lucifer is the spirit of intelligence and love; it is the paraclete, it is the Holy Spirit, while the physical Lucifer is the great agent of universal magnetism." page 428 'The Book Of Black Magic' by Arthur Edward Waite 33� "First Conjuration Addressed to Emperor Lucifer. Emperor Lucifer, Master and Prince of Rebellious Spirits, I adjure thee to leave thine abode, in what-ever quarter of the world it may be situated and come hither to communicate with me. I command and I conjure thee in the Name of the Mighty Living God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, to appear without noise and without ...." page 244 'The Secret Teaching Of All Ages' by Manly Palmer Hall 33� "I hereby promise the Great Spirit Lucifuge, Prince of Demons, that each year I will bring unto him a human soul to do with as as it may please him, and in return Lucifuge promises to bestow upon me the treasures of the earth and fulfil my every desire for the length of my natural life. If I fail to bring him each year the offering specified above, then my own soul shall be forfeit to him. Signed..... { Invocant signs pact with his own blood } " page CIV 'The Lost Keys Of Freemasonry' by Manly Palmer Hall 33� "When The Mason learns that the Key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the Mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply this energy." page 48 'The Secret Doctrine' by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky "Lucifer represents..Life.. Thought.. Progress.. Civilization..Liberty..Independance.. Lucifer is the Logos.. the Serpent, the Savior." on pages 171, 225, 255 (Volume II)"It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God." pages 215, 216, 220, 245, 255, 533, (VI) "The Celestial Virgin which thus becomes the Mother of Gods and Devils at one and the same time; for she is the ever-loving beneficent Deity...but in antiquity and reality Lucifer or Luciferius is the name. Lucifer is divine and terrestial Light, 'the Holy Ghost' and "Satan' at one and the same time." page 539 (Volume?) Albert Pike 33� "That which we must say to a crowd is - We worship a God, but it is the God that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st, and 30th degrees - The Masonic Religion should be, by alll of us initates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian Doctrine. "Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the son of the morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with it's splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! Morals and Dogma page 321 They are of course altogether deceived and deluded, since the true God is going to destroy their plans and cast their little god in the Lake of Fire along with his followers, but no one who would belong to such a satanic organization can be defined as a true child of God. I believe they are the primary army of Satan to bring about his plan for a New World Order of antichrist as described in Bible prophecy. SealedEternal

SealedEternal -> RE: America's founding fathers (12/27/2007 10:40:51 PM)
Another interesting fact is that there are Christian and Masonic authors who suggest that America was name after Amaru, the Plumed Serpent of the Incas. Not after Amerigo Vespucci as historians have stated. The land of Amaru was called Amaruca (Land of the Plumed Serpent) by the Incas. As I showed in the previous post, the serpent who Mason's call "Lucifer" is considered the one who enlightened mankind, so he is "god" in their minds. In other words, America was literally named to be the Land of Lucifer (Satan). The Great Seal on the dollar bill declares the agenda of the "land of Amaru" for all to see: Annuit Coeptis = Announcing the Birth Novus Ordo Seclorum = New World Order The phrase is taken from the fourth Eclogue of Virgil, a classical Roman poet. The founders saw "America" as the reincarnation of the Roman Empire in the Land of the plumed serpent or Satan. At the appropriate time, the serpent is supposed to bring about the New Age utopia of the New Atlantis, with the enlightened ones in control. Of course this all sounds exactly like Bible prophecy, except that these guys are on the wrong team. SealedEternal

Timcp -> RE: America's founding fathers (12/27/2007 11:14:10 PM)
Where is this evidence for all of this satanism in the mens' own words and their actions using primary source citations? satanists don't write letters recommending that you believe in Jesus Christ as George Washington told the Delaware Indians: "You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention" (1)-- George Washington satanists don't urge local governments to make land available specifically for Christian purposes as did Thomas Jefferson (2) They don't praise the use of a local courthouse as a meeting place for Christian services as did Thomas Jefferson(3), and they certainly don't assure a Christian religious school that it would receive �the patronage of the government" as did Thomas Jefferson(4). Their own actions don't back up the so called secret satan worshiping free masonry that atheists, deists, theists, agnostics, (whatever they want to call themselves these days ) would like you to believe. Because their actions I've mentioned would undermine their alleged "satanic" belief. The Bible tells plainly how to tell false prophets (Matthew 7:15-20), we will know them by their fruits, because an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit. So what have the founders I've mentioned above did that would make you think they are evil. Where are their satanic fruits? Matthew 7:15-20 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 1. George Washington's Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XV (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), p. 55. 2. Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Bishop Carroll on September 3, 1801 (in the Library of Congress, #19966). 3. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XV, p. 404, to Dr. Thomas Cooper on November 2, 1822. 4. Letter of Thomas Jefferson to the Nuns of the Order of St. Ursula at New Orleans on May 15, 1804, original in possession of the New Orleans Parish.

SealedEternal -> RE: America's founding fathers (12/28/2007 5:57:02 PM)
You should go to Washington DC sometime and inspect the fruits of our forfathers work. Look at a map and see that the entire layout is done in occult symbology by French Freemason Pierre Charles L�Enfant, who was chosen by George Washington to do the design. See the large occult phallic symbol erected in honor of Washington, which is called an obelisk and condemned by God for it's representation of the shaft of baal. See the buildings which Washinton laid the cornerstones for in Masonic occult rituals, and adorned with occult symbols and statues of pagan gods. This city whose design and architecture was oversaw by Washington himself is as occult as ancient Egypt or Babylon, so what "god" was he really worshipping? Can a child of the true God have fellowship with occult demon worshippers and pagan gods? The god of Masonry is said to be Lucifer in their own writings, and their fruits definitely bear that out. The writings will often site "God" in a generic sense, but the name of Yehoshua or Jesus are curiously always absent, and they will instead freely refer to him as Lucifer "the bearer of light" in the later degrees. If you study Masonry at all you will find that the main focus even in the early degrees is "light" but it is not the "light of the world" Jesus Christ, because once one advances beyond the 33 degree they are informed of who the true light bearer is in their eyes, who is "Lucifer." Did Washington mention Jesus once or twice? Maybe he did, but fruits are judged more by actions than words, and his actions made it clear that he was an occultist and not a Christian. Masons are taught that it is moral to say anything that advances their cause, even if they believe it is a lie. Perhaps there was an advantage to cloaking their occult plans in a Christian veneer when speaking publicly before the people. Many of our modern leaders who are high level Masons have learned this same trick. Of course those of us who inspect their fruits rather than their vain words can see right through this. SealedEternal

Deleted User -> [Deleted] (12/28/2007 7:45:33 PM)
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Timcp -> RE: America's founding fathers (12/28/2007 9:17:41 PM)
Whomever you�re listening to, can they provide quotations, or letters from Washington and Jefferson that would give you any idea they were satan worshipers? What they�re saying are assumptions, its hearsay, it�s not factual. Why would anyone anti Christ tell people about Jesus Christ? They�re supposed to say anything to advance their cause? That doesn�t even make sense. That would be like osama bin laden telling people they would do well to learn the religion of Jesus Christ, muslims would think he was nuts. And it also isn�t Biblical: 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. The Bible says that a person who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ won�t confess it to begin with. How many satan worshipers have done what Jefferson and Washington did? A letter from George Washington is the action. How many satan worshipers send letters to people telling them to believe in the religion of Jesus Christ! Whoever is telling you this stuff is amazing to me, because that just doesn�t hold up when examined by the Bible. Just telling someone about Jesus Christ is fruit, you�re witnessing by a letter.

SealedEternal -> RE: America's founding fathers (12/28/2007 9:46:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: deadhead sealed, I used to be like you I was a Texxe Marrs parrot and a follower of all the 80's crazies and see a demon behind every bush and a conspiracy behind every tree but I grew up. Not everything is a grand conspiracy. Lighten up dude. There are a lot of disinfomation experts such as Texe Marrs, but that doesn't mean that there aren't actual conspiracies. There is a spiritual battle going on all around us, and Satan has been conspiring since the beginning of time to deceive as many of us as possible. The Bible itself says that the world is filled with conspiracies and says that Satan and the demons have been conspiring against all of us for thousands of years, and that there is a delusion coming that is so powerful that it is going to deceive if possible even the elect. I guess He's a conspiracy theorist too. If "lightening up" means being deluded myself and pretending that all is fine and that things will go on forever as they are, then I don't care to. I'd much prefer to be aware and know the truth. Jesus Himself commanded that His people should keep watch and beware of the signs of the times. His prophecies are being fulfilled all around us, so I suggest you read the parable of the ten virgins, and be sure that you are prepared. I'm not suggesting that we are to fight the battle with flesh and blood because it is a spiritual battle, but we do need to arm ourselves with the truth so as not to be deceived by the enemy. The Luciferians are going to lose because the true God is infinitely more powerful than their "god", so I do not have a Spirit of fear. If people however think that the United States government is or ever has been "godly" or "Christian" then they are simply deluded and haven't studied history, and don't understand what is happening right now as we move towards world fascism. It's not an accident, and our leaders are and always have been occultists with this agenda planned the entire time. But hey, just keep watching television and telling yourselves that nothing's happening, and that our forefathers set up this "godly" "christian" nation we are living in. Keep going to your mega-churches and sing cheerful songs, and listen to your pastors tell you that God just wants you to prosper and be happy, and that if anything bad ever does happen He will rapture you all away before it comes. SealedEternal

Timcp -> RE: America's founding fathers (12/28/2007 10:19:27 PM)
There is truth in your last post, I think in a way, you're referring to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17. But to say that the founders were satan worshipers (especially George Washington), just doesn't fit in with that, they don't allow Christian churches in government. It just doesn't happen. I would like to see what examples using facts (quotes, historical documents) that shows that many of the Founders were anti Christ. If they were up to what you're saying, then they would have removed prayer from school, government, and the public. But they didn't. All those things I mentioned never took place during their lifetime, because they upheld religious beliefs for all Christian denominations.

Deleted User -> [Deleted] (12/28/2007 10:25:00 PM)
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ctipton -> RE: America's founding fathers (1/4/2008 2:17:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rosswell59 Here's a link which shows the extent of freemasonry in the origins of our country: http://www.watch.pair.com/mason.html Yours in Christ, Ross Just maybe a secret meeting was helpful in conspiring against the British crown. Just an idea.

..... -> RE: America's founding fathers (1/5/2008 10:15:27 PM)
Greetings! Maybe, instead, it was a way of affirming that crown through the underground established in England whereby one does not openly run the colonies such a manner but shrewdly runs them in a vicarious-like manner. In this way, it is shrewd like a snake so that no one can attack such a group and perceive what is really going on. We see that such mens heads are hugely overrepresented on a mountain carving in a certain state. Not at all like the former emporers of Rome would do with their oversize statues of themselves at times including the now viewed 'christian' emporer of Rome who came later in the empires history. One would have to affirm and notice all of the pre-trib teaching that goes on in the churches as well. One could swear that mason handprints were on such teachings as well. We see that the separation of Church and State is for only other groups to follow to keep them under control so that the 'commoners' don't understand what may be the underlying situation of a political issue at hand and what is at stake for them. Do they say we have a social security problem now while funding a war in trillion dollar amounts? We see that we should die for them, but not be around enough to vote on the issues as young people who have such time to research their stands on the issues because retired people vote more. Such a thing erodes democracy at the lower levels of society so that the poorer people don't want to vote all the more. How's that fare for your 'landed' aristocracy that loves us so much? Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions. - Albert Einstein

WesternWorld -> RE: America's founding fathers (4/1/2008 1:06:56 PM)
THE FOUNDERS AND CHURCH MEMBERSHIP One of the claims regarding the founding fathers is that most of them belonged to churches. The argument is that they were Christians who created the Constitution so it must be based on Christian principles. But religion is absent in the Constitution. This claim supported by any list by well meaning folks like timcp is a very misleading argument because it omits important details regarding the office of church vestrymen, which was the position many of the founders held. As you can see if you read the colonial charters, one could not serve the public without being a member of a church. The claim can be refuted with a little bit of digging below the surface. In the old order of colonial law, church and state were allied and there were blurry boundaries. The colonial governments, like Islamist governments, were Medieval governments by and of God. Because of this mixture of religious and civic, in order to hold any political power and have a say in the community's civil affairs, one had to be a church member. The office of Vestryman was an example. The church vestry at this time was also the county court and dealt with important civil affairs beyond its religious purpose. Here was the same mix of religion and government that was abolished by the 1786 Virginia Statute of Religious Liberty, then the US Constitution's Sixth Article and then the First Amendment. This was the old European order's religious test-oath laws at work. Here was a situation that prohibited a person from being a public servant unless they were a church member. So Deists like Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Wythe and others just used the system they were going to abolish - to their own advantage - and joined the churches. They joined the church in order to gain influence in public affairs and government. How else could their voices be heard? On page 26 of his 1963 book, George Washington and Religion Paul F. Boller wrote, "Actually, under the Anglican establishment in Virginia before the Revolution, the duties of a parish vestry were as much civil as religious in nature and it is not possible to deduce any exceptional religious zeal from the mere fact of membership.* Even Thomas Jefferson was a vestryman for a while. Consisting of the leading gentlemen of the parish in position and influence (many of whom, like Washington, were also at one time or other members of the County Court and of the House of Burgeses), the parish vestry, among other things, levied the parish taxes, handled poor relief, fixed land boundaries in the parish, supervised the construction, furnishing, and repairs of churches, and hired ministers and paid their salaries." Mr. Boller also notes at the asterisk that Bishop William Meade on page 191 of Volume I of his 1857 book, Old Churches, Ministers and Families of Virginia wrote: "Even Mr. Jefferson and [George] Wythe, who did not conceal their disbelief in Christianity, took their parts in the duties of vestrymen, the one at Williamsburg, the other at Albermarle; for they wished to be men of influence�" Many claims are not as they appear on the surface. One must know the times in order to understand their institutions and constitutions. On the surface, timcp looks correct in his assessment. After some digging, his conclusions can be deemed errant

cog41 -> RE: America's founding fathers (4/17/2008 8:06:20 PM)
Christians,churchmen or whatever, the founding fathers were more intelligent,more far sighted and more courageous than any of the socalled leaders we have today.

RJR_fan -> RE: America's founding fathers (4/19/2008 10:13:08 PM)
quote: Of the 55 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, 52 were active members of their church. The constitution was a new civic covenant, convened in the name of a new deity -- "We the people." The prohibition on test oaths made it plain that the form of government instituted by the 1789 constitution recognized no deity higher than itself. Patrick Henry was one of many patriots who was also and anti-federalist, who resisted the ratification of the U.S. constitution. Time has proven that he was right.

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