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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/26/2007 8:16:34 PM
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jesusis4me
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Joined: 4/30/2006
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I just want you to know that I can so relate to what you are going through. My husband and I are recovering from his affair with an old friend. I know exactly what you mean by the ups and downs. EXACTLY.
This is so incredibly painful and I just don't know what to do sometimes. I constantly wonder what REALLY happened. I second-guess everything he says. I wonder if he's staying in our marriage because it's the 'right thing to do' or if he really does want us to work.
I've also read all the advice you've been given and received it for myself.
Take care. I'll pray for you.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/26/2007 9:50:58 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 2768
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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jesusis4me - i urge you to read surviving an affair by dr harley - i found it at my library. the point is your husband is with you now. hooray.
and you guys have an opportunity to start something even better than what you had. i'm praying for both of you.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/26/2007 11:50:45 PM
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jesusis4me
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Thank you, iwillfearnoevil. Yes, he is with me now, but no wife wants her husband to stay out of obligation. I want the dream we both hoped for when we got married. He says he does too, but there have been so many lies in the past. He says he's not lying now, he does not defend his previous actions, he takes full responsibility, but... he loves her.
His words are one thing, his actions are severely lacking. Oh, he's staying away from her which is a biggie, but there are very few advances toward me.
I will get the book you've recommended. I want our marriage to succeed. It's just been such a long haul and I am exhausted.
Glad I found this site & thread.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/27/2007 9:52:07 AM
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collie1
Posts: 774
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From: The Place to Go: Idaho!!
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May God bless your heart and marriage Jesusis4me.
If God is for you and your marriage and He is, only Satan is against it and he has no power of Jesus.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/27/2007 1:57:22 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 2768
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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yes your spouses have strong feelings for the other people. that is hard to deal with. those feelings can and do fade over time. no contact as you will read is a big factor in that. if i continue the affairs are addictions analogy, just think about an alcoholic going into a bar and having a couple of beers. that will set the recovery back. however a good point is that your spouse will be spending more time with you and building up love for you again. you both can leave each other just as before and even more so if you can imagine that. the book talks about a love bank in each person. everytime someone is doing something nice for you (meeting one of your emotional needs), their balance in your bank goes up. once the balance goes high enough, love is triggered. conversely, disrespectful judgements or angry outbursts will decrease that balance. kinda sounds mathematical but if you read more about it, it really does make sense. i also will warn you that sometimes there are attempts by the wayward spouse to see the other person again (secretly of course). this is because the affair is like an addiction and your spouse needs another fix. i believe you guys can do this and i'm still praying for your ashes to turn to beauty.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/27/2007 4:28:15 PM
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hurtinginlove
Posts: 23
Joined: 11/21/2007
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Jesusis4me,
I hate this feeling for you and me both. Being blind sided by anything is difficult but being blind sided by the one you share your heart and bed with is beyond description... I wish you and your husband the best. My wife and I are really working hard to make our marriage work. She knows she made a mistake and hates herself for it. I think she would love to wake up and find this whole thing was a nightmare.
We are doing more things together that we once did alone. We take a shower together everynight. I wash her and she washes me. Our daily time together with each other is in the shower and once we get the kids to bed. Once we get the kids in bed, we snuggle while watching TV or talking. I love talking with my wife but she is not much of a communicator when it comes to her feelings. I can lay all my feelings out there in a split second. She has to have time to think and then describes them in a very simple and short response. I would love to just pull a paragraph out of her about all her true feelings, good or bad.
My wife text messages me several times a day with comments like, "U R loved bunches & bunches" and "I love you more than all the trees!!!" The later saying is something my little girl said one time and it stuck with my wife and I. We try to see who can come up with the biggest way to say "I love you" in our text messages at times. Like "I love you more than all the grains of sand at the beach." All this is kinda childish, but we are God's children aren't we? It is fun being creative with how much you love each other..
I'm not always upbeat. Sometimes I wonder if I need to pinch pennies through Christmas so I can pay attorney fees for a divorce. I'm not always sure what I want. At this point, I am probably the problem in getting the affair behind us, which I think is typical. She hurt me real bad..
My preacher tells me to forgive her and give my pain to God, but I can't. I haven't found a way to let go of the pain just yet. Maybe one day but I can't today and tomorrow is way too soon. It is amazing so many people have posted on this thread in trying to help. Wow, God has awesome power doesn't he. I know once I can let go of the pain and pass it to him, I will feel better. But I just can't right now.
I WILL BE PRAYING FOR YOU ALSO..
< Message edited by hurtinginlove -- 11/28/2007 9:53:08 AM >
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/27/2007 4:45:32 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2713
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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quote:
My preacher tells me to forgive her and give my pain to God, but I can't. I haven't found a way to let go of the pain just yet. Maybe one day but I can't today and tomorrow is way too soon. It is amazing so many people have posted on this thread in trying to help. Wow, God has awsome power doesn't he. I know once I can let go of the pain and pass it to him, I will feel better. But I just can't right now.
If someone had stabbed you in the leg noone would be telling you to give your pain to God and expect your leg to stop hurting. They would be telling you to treat it carefully until it heals. You have been painfully wounded. It takes time to heal. It takes time for the pain to go away. But, just like eventually a stab wound heals, your heart will heal.
I read somewhere a long long time ago that it takes at least a year for a marriage to recover from infidelity. You are only 4 months into this process. Don't beat yourself up for still hurting. I promise, it will get better. By Christmas you will be better than today. By February, you will be better than at Christmas. By summer you will be better than in February. The painful days will be less and the good days will be more.
Keep trusting Jesus to carry you through the painful days and keep your eyes open towards the better days.
May His Word comfort you:
Psalm 121
A song of ascents.
1 I lift up my eyes to the hills—
where does my help come from?
2 My help comes from the LORD,
the Maker of heaven and earth.
3 He will not let your foot slip—
he who watches over you will not slumber;
4 indeed, he who watches over Israel
will neither slumber nor sleep.
5 The LORD watches over you—
the LORD is your shade at your right hand;
6 the sun will not harm you by day,
nor the moon by night.
7 The LORD will keep you from all harm—
he will watch over your life;
8 the LORD will watch over your coming and going
both now and forevermore.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/27/2007 5:05:37 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2049
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
If someone had stabbed you in the leg noone would be telling you to give your pain to God and expect your leg to stop hurting. They would be telling you to treat it carefully until it heals. You have been painfully wounded. It takes time to heal. It takes time for the pain to go away. But, just like eventually a stab wound heals, your heart will heal.
I read somewhere a long long time ago that it takes at least a year for a marriage to recover from infidelity. You are only 4 months into this process. Don't beat yourself up for still hurting. I promise, it will get better. By Christmas you will be better than today. By February, you will be better than at Christmas. By summer you will be better than in February. The painful days will be less and the good days will be more.
Keep trusting Jesus to carry you through the painful days and keep your eyes open towards the better days.
I agree with this completely; however, I also want to point out that during this time of pain it is really important to act in a way that demonstrates forgiveness to your wife, even while you are struggling to feel that forgiveness in your heart. Part of the reason that infidelity takes so long to recover from is that it takes a while to rebuild trust in a marriage that has suffered infidelity; trusting your wife is not the same as forgiving her, and although love and forgiveness should be given to your wife unconditionally, trust requires your wife to show herself to be trustworthy and that takes time.
And Laura is right, "The painful days will be less and the good days will be more."
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/28/2007 9:58:28 AM
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hurtinginlove
Posts: 23
Joined: 11/21/2007
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What is a good book(s) for me to get my wife for Christmas? She is the one who had the affair. I have read "His Needs Her Needs how to build an affair proof marriage." An affair has already happened so does this book still apply for her? How about "Surviving an Affair." All ideas will be appreciated.
Thanks
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/28/2007 10:19:59 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 2768
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hurtinginlove
What is a good book(s) for me to get my wife for Christmas? She is the one who had the affair. I have read "His Needs Her Needs how to build an affair proof marriage." An affair has already happened so does this book still apply for her? How about "Surviving an Affair." All ideas will be appreciated.
Thanks
hurting, saa is by the same author. did you read that book with her or alone? do you agree with the emotional needs theory. from what you've said, your busy workschedule may have prevented you from meeting some of her most important emotional needs that a co-worker was able to fill. as each of you try to meet the other's emotional needs, your love will return and grow. i wouldn't wait until Christmas to give it to her. i'd buy her something more fun for Christmas. i realize this may be one present of many, but not a good reminder to her. the goal is for both of you to move forward and build something awesome and not always be weighed down with the past. this book will also help you out. you will see a lot of parallels in saa in your marriage as it uses 3 example couples throughout the book.
this sucks to say that altho betrayed spouses never force the wayward one into an affair, i would think that most have helped set the stage some. the other person still made a terrible choice, but we still have work to do on our end to make the betrayed spouse feel loved and not even be tempted by that choice again. i'm so sorry for your pain, and it will ease over time and work.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/28/2007 11:53:26 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2049
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hurtinginlove
What is a good book(s) for me to get my wife for Christmas? She is the one who had the affair. I have read "His Needs Her Needs how to build an affair proof marriage." An affair has already happened so does this book still apply for her? How about "Surviving an Affair." All ideas will be appreciated.
Thanks
I think that both of these books would be good for you and your wife to read together; however, I really believe these would be very poor Christmas gifts. Give her a Christmas gift that shows her how valuable she is to you (and God), and something that demonstrates your love for her, not something that reminds her again of how she has failed. These books would be good for you and her, but not as Christmas gifts!!!
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/30/2007 10:46:12 AM
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jesusis4me
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Okay, I just had this long response complete with quotes & all then my session timed out! Hmphf!
I'll just have to settle for this and hopefully get back to a more complete response later:
I agree with so much that has been said here. Hurting, I'm so glad to hear about the ways you and your wife are making strides to heal your marriage and grow together. What I would do for cutsie text messages and emails (they come, but rarely).
This is certainly a roller coaster ride I never thought I'd be on. When I married my husband, I trusted him completely. We've not been married long, but he had an immaculate life history of godly character and integrity -- NO ONE would ever think he was capable of this. NO ONE. Now? I don't trust him as far as I can throw him. And the anger -- never knew I had it in me to be so angry. I just want to break things!!
Thank you all for your support and encouragement. It is immeasurable. Hurting... hang in there.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/30/2007 11:08:37 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 2768
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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was just thinking of you two...glad you posted an update. have you asked your husband to send you a txt each day? it may seem mechanical to him but eventually will become second nature. also i'd consider asking him if there's something you could do to help meet one of his emotional needs on a daily basis - whether it be domestic support (eg, having dishes washed daily), sex on a more frequent basis, recreational companionship (playing a game at night), etc. i suggest you two try to complete an emotional needs questionnaire. it can be done in a night and is very revealing. neither you nor your husband will have a great desire to have an affair if your emotional needs are being met by a spouse. it will help your husband get thru withdrawal of the other person, and help you feel love from your husband again rather than him just being there out of obligation. those feelings of obligation may not last forever either so there is incentive for you to actively be fighting for your marriage. you can do it!
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/30/2007 11:38:26 AM
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jesusis4me
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Yeah, one of the things I'd written about in my post that timed-out before I got it posted was the emotional needs question.
The love bank -- we've learned about. Thing is, up until the you-know-what hit the fan with the affair, he has had zero desire to deposit anything into my love bank. The flip side of that is that for our entire marriage, I've tried and tried to make deposits. I've reached out and reached out and yet my deposits are unaccepted. He and I talked about this when he was just beginning to consider ending the affair. He said that it wasn't that my deposits weren't accepted, my attempts just didn't register at all. (OUCH!) When I've asked him how I can make deposits that will register, he's told me he doesn't know. This is why I am so gun-shy to attempt any deposits. I have been conditioned to rejection and I'm just not willing to risk it anymore. When he makes advances, I respond and receive as wholeheartedly as possible (which he's been amazed at), but I do not pursue him. If he wants me, he can come and get me.
It is so opposite how it was when we were courting. Things felt so natural then. We fit like a hand-in-glove. The minute we got married, everything changed and it was as though he resented my presence.
The last few months, since he's recommitted to our marriage have been better than our entire (very short) marriage, but it still falls short.
Gosh, asking him to text me is a toughy for me. Though I can see all the good reasons for it, even if it is at first mechanical. I just have such a hard time being in that position. I've never in my life been in a position like this.
My first husband was taken from this world. But during his all-too-short life, he and I knew a love like no other. It was pure and amazing for over a decade. I am so not used to not being cherished, treasured. It is hard. It is painful. I am emotionally starving to death.
My new husband knows that. He's acknowledged that he is the one with the problem, that for our entire marriage I have given love freely that he has trampled on shamelessly. I think that is changing. It's just agonizingly slow.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 11/30/2007 12:05:35 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 2768
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
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hurtinginlove, i hope you aren't considering this threadjacking as i don't want to draw attention from your original post. you two seem in a similiar position so maybe we all can learn together. let me know if you want me to address comments to jesusis4me in a different thread?
hurtinginlove, the registering thing makes sense to me. for example, if one's top needs were sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship, and their spouse was making deposits in other areas such as financial stability (working a full time job) and domestic support (having the house spotless every day), they'd be making small deposits. cause even though it took a lot of work, it didn't have as big a bang for the buck as if they'd have gone out to dinner and a walk followed by sex. maybe the categories you were shooting for, weren't the ones your spouse most valued. then again, i don't think there is any magic bullet (advice, tips, etc) that works for every marriage cause every marriage has its own dynamics. i've seen this concept in play and personally saw how it works. also with the love bank, we can do actions (disrepectful judgements, angry outbursts) that cause withdrawals and can negate all the good of our deposits.
you wrote you are emotionally starving to death, i'd consider asking for those txts then. cause if you get desperate and hungry enough, it's possible you might be the one considering an affair if your needs started getting met outside the marriage.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 12/1/2007 1:52:19 AM
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beautyforashes81
Posts: 28
Joined: 11/20/2007
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quote:
You will not heal, your marriage will not heal and your wife will not heal without forgiveness.
That is very true. It's a process and in time your emotional wounds will heal. I think that it's a blessing that your wife is willing to work it out. That is GREAT.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 12/3/2007 12:30:02 PM
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hurtinginlove
Posts: 23
Joined: 11/21/2007
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I have been out of town for several days and finally made it back to the forum.
No, I don't consider it threadjacking. Feel free to post your opinions.
I thought I was doing a pretty good job at balancing family and work. I would take my wife to dinner and I would meet her for lunch ocassionally. During the dinner nights I arranged a babysitter, not her.
This affair started after my wife joined weight watchers and started losing weight. She did great at it. I complimented her and kept the kids so she could go walk for an hour almost every evening. She started getting a lot of attention and compliments from this particular guy at work and she liked it. Next thing you know they were having an affair.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 12/4/2007 1:49:45 AM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 596
Joined: 7/13/2007
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When a marriage is recovering from an affair it's normal for the injured spouse to have depression and mood swings (lots of ups and downs). It will take a long, long time but things can get better. Your marriage can survive this and may even end up being better than it's ever been before.
Your wife needs to be in counseling, have an accountability partner in addition to you (a mature Christian woman), read books to educate herself on relationships and recovering from adultery. A good one would be Every Woman's Battle by Fred Stoeker and Steve Arterburn. It deals with women and affairs. Your wife needs to do whatever it is you require of her in order for trust to be rebuilt. It will take a long, long time but it is possible. She must be open and honest at all times.....an open book to you. Whatever you want to know about the affair.....it is your right to know. She must answer willingly and honestly no matter how much it hurts. All contact with the om needs to cease. She needs to find another job. Even being around other people who know this man could be a dangerous thing. She may be struggling to break a soul tie to the om.
Consider the ways that you can both affair proof your marriage. It sounds like your wife's emotional needs weren't being met. If you were gone on the weekends a lot and working during the week.... Well, it must have been difficult for her. From what I know of men and women, you not meeting her emotional needs for a long period of time would be like her refusing to be physically intimate for a long period of time. If she had come to you and said, "Honey, I'm going to be working all week and on weekends too for the next 6 months so I won't have the energy to be physically intimate with you until the deal is closed" how would you have felt? I am in NO WAY saying that what she did was okay. No way, nuh uh. She was wrong. She CHOSE to do what she did. I am just trying to point out that perhaps there are things you can both do to improve your relationship and strenghthen the marriage. Have you read The Five Love Language?
You mentioned that next time an opportunity for you to cheat comes up you may not turn it down. Please don't do that. You will just end up hurting yourself. Things are bad enough as it is. Don't add more hurt to it. It would damage your relationship with God, your self-respect, hurt any chance of repairing the marriage....
I'm sorry you are hurting this way. I know it's incredibly painful. It's wonderful that you are willing to forgive and seek a restored marriage. May God bless your efforts.
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 12/4/2007 9:46:34 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2713
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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quote:
Your wife needs to do whatever it is you require of her in order for trust to be rebuilt.
Within reason. Unfortunately, some men would use that statement to permit abusive behavior.
quote:
She must be open and honest at all times.....an open book to you. Whatever you want to know about the affair.....it is your right to know. She must answer willingly and honestly no matter how much it hurts.
There are some things that she should not tell him no matter what he says. Some men demand details only to have those details torture his thoughts. It isn't his "right" to know every detail. And, if it hurts her too much to answer then he needs to show grace by not demanding an answer.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 12/4/2007 10:03:39 AM
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guitarmark
Posts: 664
Joined: 8/19/2007
From: Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
There are some things that she should not tell him no matter what he says. Some men demand details only to have those details torture his thoughts. It isn't his "right" to know every detail. And, if it hurts her too much to answer then he needs to show grace by not demanding an answer.
I agree... Some details shouldn't be revealed. I'm not saying that the spouse who cheated should lie about everything they've done, but the truly intimate, gory details will stick in the other's mind and never go away - ever....
It's just best for the spouse to say that they're not comfortable revealing such things and let it go at that. Lying and swearing oaths that they never happened are just as bad. It needs to be handled delicately...
_____________________________
Open-minded discussions about life, love and fun - based on Godly principles, yet decidedly free from gratuitous quoting of Scripture. This is my promise to refrain from typing Bible verses at you…
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 12/4/2007 12:03:56 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2049
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
Your wife needs to do whatever it is you require of her in order for trust to be rebuilt.
Within reason. Unfortunately, some men would use that statement to permit abusive behavior.
I think "within reason" means that there should be no expectation of privacy; when there has been a betrayal of this magnitude, any perception that somethings remain hidden is going to bread mis-trust. However, I do believe strongly that the choice to be open and transparent needs to go both ways or it is going to breed resentment i.e. the one who was betrayed should not have a greater right to privacy than the one who was the betrayer does. Looking at it from a different perspective, being open and transparent should be the goal of every marriage regardless of the "history" of that marriage, it just become more important to get there quicker when issues of trust threaten to derail the marriage.
quote:
quote:
She must be open and honest at all times.....an open book to you. Whatever you want to know about the affair.....it is your right to know. She must answer willingly and honestly no matter how much it hurts.
There are some things that she should not tell him no matter what he says. Some men demand details only to have those details torture his thoughts. It isn't his "right" to know every detail. And, if it hurts her too much to answer then he needs to show grace by not demanding an answer.
Although, I would agree that great wisdom needs to be exercised when providing the details of an affair. Both spouses need to be emotionally ready, and often the wise choice is to wait until a counselor or pastor is availible to help guide the process. However, where I strongly disagree is the idea that anything should ever be kept secret unless the other spouse doesn't want to know the details. There are often good reasons to wait before divulging the details of an affair, but those reasons should be clearly communicated, and details should almost never be divulged in any form unless the other spouse wants to hear them. However, when a spouse who has been betrayed knows that a secret is being kept or has good reason to believe that he/she is being lied to about the the details, it does serious damage to the ability of that spouse to trust again, but when the choice of what is divulged is given to the spouse who was betrayed, openness and transparency within the relationship remains intact.
On the other side of the issue, trust can also be severely damaged in a marriage when details (or even knowledge of) an affair is used as a means of control against the spouse who was involved in the affair. Repeatedly asking for the same details over and over should always be off limits, as should using any of the details as justification to behave poorly, or to remind the other spouse how "bad" they have been. A spouse who is truly open about their failures is very vulnerable, and is exhibiting a great deal of trust; it is very important not to betray that trust!
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 12/4/2007 1:44:07 PM
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Lauralspring
Posts: 9
Joined: 11/30/2007
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I wanted to share with you that I recently read the Biblical account of David with Bethsheba (2 Samuel 11). It struck me how David went to such great lengths to cover up what he had done, and how he was decieved into believing he had somehow hidden the sin from God. I am teaching the Sunday school class of my 4 year old, and we are learning that nothing can be hid from God----He sees it all. What is done in secret will be shown in broad daylight on judgement day.
I can somewhat relate to your wife, in that I have hidden from people behind fat for years and am losing weight slowly but surely now. As I lose weight, I see more areas where I will be tempted as a thinner person and I come out from behind the weight I've "insulated" myself with for many years. If her emotional needs were not met, and you didn't have an active role in her life, spending time just hanging out with her if that is what she likes, I could see how she would gravitate to someone who would fill her head with flattery and romance.
What keeps my head on straight, is realizing that God sees every move I make. He knows every thought I ever have! What kind of fool would try to outrun Him? And also "fear of the Lord" keeps me on the narrow road-----I know He has the power to bring calamity and strife into my life to discipline me----and He says He WILL indeed discipline those He loves. He is not mocked! Adultery is a sin against Him first; David acknowledges this to God in front of Nathan when he is confronted. I don't want to be on the receiving end of God's wrath, I don't know about you!!! I know He is love, and longs to show compassion on us, an adulterous and idol-worshipping People. But Christians are not spared His hand of correction when we need it---it is for our soul's preservation.
Just thought the observations of a sinful, but redeemed sister who is also tempted might help you gain insight into your wife's difficulties. Be encouraged---God wants your marriage to succeed even more than you do!!!!
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RE: How do I put adultery in the past?? - 12/5/2007 9:35:16 AM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 2768
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hislittleone
I stand by my advice to be an open book. They must both be an open book with each other. It's a two way street. Some people would be tortured by NOT knowing the details because the imagined details are as bad or worse than reality. It just depends on the person as to how much they want to know. It's up to the injured spouse to decide what information they need in order to heal.
agreed but as a betrayed spouse i wish i knew less than i did. i realize everyone is different. i urge others to carefully consider their questions, maybe even right them down and come back in a week and see if you still really need to know. also expect the worse answer as wayward spouse wasn't thinking straight (affair = addiction) and then you can't use their answer as a weapon (ie, responding i can't believe you did that, etc).
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