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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/24/2007 11:31:44 PM
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Okami
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Ex 20:26 refers to when they were told how to design their altars. In their society, walking up steps built too steep, combined with the way they dressed, would have given eachother too much of an eyeful, causing problems.
Lev 20:27 is about incest
Lev 20:11 doesn't even refer to a state of undress. It refers to adultery and bringing shame the husband. In which case, both the adulterers are put to death.
Leviticus 18 doesn't refer to any state of undress either. It is about adultery and incest, and the commands not to do it.
Na 3:5 "nakedness" refers to vulnerability, with the entire verse using a symbolism they would understand. Being caught naked.
The Timothy quote is also taken way out of context.
It was aimed at women of the church who would were "dressed to impress". They were going overboard, trying to "out-rich" eachother. They were being told to tone it down, not to put more on.
Adam and Eve were only covered because they were ashamed. God gave them clothes to alleviate that, as well as to protect them. They were wearing the latest in fig fashions. Then to be kicked out of the garden, they were going to need something a bit warmer.
I never did say that Christians should be in the lifestyle. I even backed up what RC stated about converted ones leaving it. And that was probably because they were told it was wrong.
However, we can not say that any of them that were raised in such a way, and became Christians, are going to go to hell for remaining in that lifestyle either. If there are any, I'm sure they can challenge anyone still about using old covenant laws against them out of context. Remember, RC was asked to go there. It might even be a good ministry opportunity for those that aren't affected by it, as shown by RC's experience. I know I can't, because I've since fallen into the outside world's view of nudity, and would be too much for me. But I'm sure I'll see some of those nudists in Heaven.
No, they aren't being "conditioned". It's more like an "innocence".
Consider growing up playing "Ring Around the Rosies". We grew up with it being a nice normal thing everyone did. Then someone comes along and says we shouldn't, because it symbolizes nuclear holocaust, does that suddenly make us all wrong? Some might agree, and decide not to anymore. But most everyone else will see it as "what's the big deal" and continue to do so. They don't suddenly become "willingly sinning" , and are now damned, no matter how much everyone else is telling them they are wrong for it.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/24/2007 11:48:20 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
doer, with all do respect, I do not need a commentary
this is what an non kjv says in a little plainer english:
Lev 18:6 "Never have sexual intercourse with anyone related to you by blood. I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 "Never have sexual intercourse with your mother. She is your own mother. Never have sexual intercourse with her.
Lev 18:8 Never have sexual intercourse with your stepmother. She is related to you through your father.
Lev 18:9 Never have sexual intercourse with your stepsister, whether she is your father's daughter or your mother's daughter. It makes no difference whether or not she was born in your house.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/24/2007 11:58:27 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
But if there are Christian pro-nudists among us, their opinions would be most interesting, don'tcha think?
As I said, there ahve been several threads in the past. I'm not going to look for them to link them. If someone else wants to, go ahead. One of my observations of the pro nudists is that their lifestyle seems to take precedence over Christ. It is idolitry. While most profess Christ, they're interest in the nudist lifestyle perks their interest more than Christ alone.
quote:
Okami
Everyone is looking at them telling them they are in the wrong, with only their current understanding of the world outside theirs.
They aren't going out to see naked people , like we would be if we were to go. They are waking up and going about life as it always was to them.
I just have the benefit of having the experience of being raised with it, so I have a better understanding of both sides.
While you have a point about the curent understanding most people have of the issue being somewhat judgmental. Yet, the same judgment is passed back at those who have not lived the nudist lifestyle. h to demean your experience of having been raised in an environment where nudism was "normal," parents often subject their kids to things in the name of being open minded. I was exposed to drug use as i was growing up. My folks justified this by saying they were educating me to the realities of life. I spent the first five years of adulthood living the lifestyle I was taught. So, while oyu have an understanding of both sides of the issue, do you really have a better understanding?
While I often like to think I have a better understanding of things, i have learned that the more I think I know, the less I really know. In addition to having lived a drug abusing lifestyle, I have lived a very promiscuos lifestyle. After coming to Christ, He has placed me in sme positions in which I have been able to get very close to some of the most feared people in the community. After listening to most of these men and women, they are not really different than any of us. We all have the capacity to form some very sick thoughts. The biggest difference I've seen between them and us is that they ahve been caught.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/25/2007 1:31:54 AM
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Kath
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quote:
As I said, there ahve been several threads in the past. I'm not going to look for them to link them. If someone else wants to, go ahead.
In the last year...
is going to nude beach a sin?
Naked and unashamed
Lets settle it once and for all
there were more but they were removed from the viewing area for one reason or another.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/25/2007 3:55:02 AM
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BlackSabbath
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quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarmark
Man, I'm looking forward to the responses in this thread! LOL...
Ha ha ha, lol. Well, here's one.........."Ewwwwww.......gross.........yukky". And that's just me in speedos, let alone without them.
I can't imagine going to a nude beach, I wouldn't know where to look. "I'm just admiring God's beautiful sunshine, *squinting*, yes, the sun brings light like the Son of God, *tears running down cheeks*, yep, just love that sunshine.................*blindness*, praise God, he is good.
Or alternatively, "Ummm.......I'm having problems with my foot.....umm, err......tinnea, you know, Athelete's foot. Yep, always having problems with my foot, need to always look at my foot".
*second person*, "You know what's a good treatment for tinnea? Peeing on your own foot.
< Message edited by BlackSabb -- 11/25/2007 4:01:57 AM >
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/25/2007 5:26:02 PM
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Kath
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quote:
Those are all excellent, in-depth threads, the first two, at least.
Yeah, I just threw that last one in for comic relief.
quote:
Egad... There is nothing new under the sun, eh?
'fraid not.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/25/2007 6:39:16 PM
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Okami
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kjvthumper
doer,
who says that is plainer english? That is just another example of the danger of different versions, but that is for another post. It looks to me like you can search for a bible that supports your position where I think its wise to just let your position be supported by the bible. But thats just me. 
Except that it is right.
"uncovering nakedness" refers to the act of lifting up the attire they wore, for the purpose of sexual relations.
It has in no way whatsoever a meaning of taking off your clothes, or simply being around people without clothes.
The "danger" is the reader misunderstanding, not the words used.
According to how you translated, Isaiah 20:3 , where Isaiah was told to strip and walk around naked as a message to Israel
"And the LORD said, "Even as My servant Isaiah has gone naked and barefoot three years as a sign and token against Egypt and Cush"
would mean that it was ok for us too,, since obviously not only a man of God, but one of the prophets did it.
< Message edited by Okami -- 11/25/2007 10:29:45 PM >
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/26/2007 10:29:00 PM
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kjvthumper
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Again, its in the wording of the bible, not your spin on it. Its not true cuz you said so, its only true if that is the meaning of the bible. Who told you that uncovering nakedness is as you say "for the purpose of sexual relations" when it could mean that seeing someones nakedness may result in sexual relations so just avoid nakedness altogether. I like the clear language of my kjv. If one errs, I think its safer to err on the side of caution than to play around with the words of the bible and thus tempt sin. But again, maybe thats just me. 
Lev 20:17- And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
Notice the word "see". Last I knew, for us simple folk, that is something you do with your eyes. But maybe thats just me again. "It is wickedness" to "see" your sister's nakedness. Sounds pretty simple to me.
Also, to appeal to the account of Isaiah preaching naked (which he did) as some sort of license to do the same would mean then that since God told Joshua to kill every man woman and child in Caanan its ok for us to do so also? That's some twisted logic if you ask me. I guess we should also build arks of gopher wood since God told Noah to, or even eat bread made with cow's dung like Ezekiel. As you can see this would be absurd and so is the reach of applying what God told Isaiah to do as an excuse to walk around naked.
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Ps 34:6 This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/27/2007 12:55:11 AM
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Okami
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I use a KJV also.
Although, I find the NKJV is more accurate on many words.
The main point is, that you are only seeing the word "nakedness" and assuming what it means.
Taking the actual words used, which the translators then gave their meaning of, you find out what it means for yourself. They translators of the KJV were overly puritan in some cases.
The word used for "uncover" or "discover" means (a) to see on a mutual basis, (b) to lie with, (c) to tap into, (d) to know intimately. The same word was used in each appearance, but the translators chose different definitons.
The word that was used for "nakedness" is "erva" , and refers to an act that has to do with drawing bodily fluids from eachother.
Both words used together would imply the exposing of themselves for sexual reasons.
Take the original text of
'ervat 'aviycha ve'ervat 'imcha lo' t'galeh
A literal translation would be something close to
The some sexual act your father and the some sexual act your mother do not , she is your mother; do not discover her some sexual act
Some translations swap in "sex" or "sexual act" or "sexual intercourse".
KJV translators decided to go with "uncover their nakedness" because of the traditions and dress of the Israelites at the time of Moses's day.
Men and women alike wore full body tunic/robe type of apparel. When they did hard work, they "girded their loins" , which meant to use ropes and tie up their legs in makeshift pants. When people wanted to have sex, they simply needed to lift their garments , exposing themselves.
The Isaiah comment was just to be facetious. I wouldn't use it to defend a nudist. But it is one of the very few instances that really do refer to actually being undressed for no reason other than to have no clothing on.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/27/2007 1:25:04 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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I'll keep it short......
I think there is a good reason why God made garments of skin for the man and the woman, and I don't think it was just because they needed something warmer than their own skin... remember that there was no rain at the time, and as far as we know, no winter either. It's very telling that they realized they should be ashamed about being naked after eating of the tree of the Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. But that is just me.
Adam
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/27/2007 2:37:59 AM
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Okami
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heh
As much as I've defended pre- vs post- flood changes, that thought never crossed my mind.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 11/27/2007 10:52:31 PM
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Okami
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Taking a closer look at the Adam and Eve wording, it seems they use two different words. "arom" and "erom".
I can't find what the difference is, but arom is used before they ate of the fruit, and erom is used after.
Note though, they didn't realize they should be ashamed. They realized they had nothing on, and then were ashamed. It can be argued all day that they were ashamed because they were naked, or because they realized they broke God's word, or a combination of both.
But their view of it obviously did change, as evidenced by the different words used to describe being naked, both before and after.
I tried finding the differences between "arom" and "erom" in my books, and online as well. Maybe someone here with experience using them can shed some light on it.
Online though, I did come across an interesting page on nudity in the Bible.
http://www.legalfreedom.com/JudeoChristianNaturism/
Since the page has the word "naturism" in it, I assume it was written with a bias by someone trying to defend a nudist lifestyle.
Checking out what is stated, I haven't found anything they said incorrect yet, but some of the references by Jesus Himself might be a stretch on meaning, but not on wording. However, all the OT references are valid as far as I have read , based on verse, context, original words and meanings.
It is interesting to read if nothing else.
It does not include all instances of the word "naked" , just the ones relevant.
I was going to list all the different words used, and their meanings, but it would only really mean something if the verses they were in were referenced, and that would just make it way too long.
Some of the words that the translators used "naked" for, really mean things like "shame" , "chaos" , and "unwanted attention", among others.
< Message edited by Okami -- 11/28/2007 1:07:36 AM >
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My ancestors were humans. Sorry to hear about yours.
Bible answer men the way it should be done.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 12/8/2007 1:46:23 AM
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ljmac
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Well... that one time last year, she recals slowly, when she took all her clothes off on what she thought was a nude beach in Africa. The beach was deserted, except for some young native men who suddenly appeared and remained to stare.
"My girlfriend and I wondered why the boys had their clothes on," Amy (Grant) remembers, "so we swam way out in the ocean and stayed there. Later we learned it was not a nude beach. But no big deal. It was a liberating experience. It felt unbelievably crazy to take off all my clothes and play in the sun. I've not had that much fun in so long....
http://amygrant.offramp.org/info/articles/ung/8.html
A "deserted" beach with people on it. Better yet, she thought it was a deserted nude beach, where there were people who all had their clothes on.
I saw the article years ago when it was published. In it she advocates foul language, pre-marital sex and finds doing "naughty" things "invigorating." And by the way, people apposed to pre-marital sex got that way because some "pain" they experienced.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 12/8/2007 2:36:12 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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and............. your point was?
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 12/10/2007 2:24:39 PM
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ljmac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
and............. your point was?
Just adding to the conversation with the Grant's opinion. If what she says interests you, read the article.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 12/11/2007 5:49:11 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Ah............ I thought you were quoting her to make a point........
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 12/12/2007 1:52:45 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
Again, its in the wording of the bible, not your spin on it. Its not true cuz you said so, its only true if that is the meaning of the bible. Who told you that uncovering nakedness is as you say "for the purpose of sexual relations" when it could mean that seeing someones nakedness may result in sexual relations so just avoid nakedness altogether. I like the clear language of my kjv. If one errs, I think its safer to err on the side of caution than to play around with the words of the bible and thus tempt sin. But again, maybe thats just me. That is the danger of using "versions" including the King James Version.
You have to look at the original language and what the wording would have meant to the original audience.
Example: if you wer to go around the US in 1970 and say to various people "That's heavy," how would they understand it? Some would take it to mean that what ever you were refering to had a lot of weight. Others would take it to mean what ever you were refering to had psycological depth to it. Others would take it to mean someting was really good. And a fourth group (if the subject was musical) would take it to mean it had a power chord structure with a lot of bass (forerunner of heavy metal).
So for this statement, "uncover nakedness," what would the Israelites wandering in the desert east of Egypt understand it to mean? Most scholars take it to mean "have sex with..." as they would have understood it.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 12/13/2007 1:58:40 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Problem being that in our defining of Hebrew words, at some point we need to cross over from Hebrew to English so that we have at least a clue what the heck we are talking about. So no matter what, there is at least a little bit of our own Language biases in understanding original languages.
Adam
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 3/29/2008 2:58:58 PM
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zamdad
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Here we go again. I'm about to come across like the meanest "Christian" on these boards. First, Gymnoboy, welcome to the forums. Somehow, I think your stay will be brief.
Because your first post is on this topic and because you went to such lengths to justify your perspective on this issue, I would say that this lifestyle has a higher importance in your life than God and is, therefore, an idol.
You say it's not about sexuality. You began this lifetyle at 19. Sexaulity had nothing to do with it then? You are now approximately 38. Has your thinking changed somewhat so that it does not seem sexual anymore? So the nudist camps do criminal background checks. What about all those persps who have yet to be caught? Getting a criminal conviction means one has to be caught first.
quote:
Hence the reason why I have given up going to church and prefer to study the Bible by myself now.
IN other words, you have chosen the path you want. You are going to follow God on your terms no matter what you may learn from His word.
quote:
Many European countries tend to have a more liberal and healthier attitude to nudism and sexuality, hence why sex offences like rape, paedophilia, teen pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies are far lower than in the UK and America where their society has tabooed and titillated nudity in a most unhealthy and inappropriate manner.
Really? How come there is human trafficking for sexual slaves throughout Europe? The church has already been dismissed in most of these European countries. You don't see a correlation between the disappearance of the church and the increasing appearance of moral relativism?
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You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 3/30/2008 9:54:43 AM
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terry.culp
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What a pity when well-meaning American Christians take dogmatic positions on subjects of which they know so little.
As a missionary kid, I experienced this so many times -- American Christians who had absolutely no idea of how to deal with spiritual warfare since they've never been in a situation where enormous evil has vast strongholds.
As to nudity, it goes right along with alcohol consumption. American Christians love to pretend that Jesus turned the water into grape juice. I was at a teen outing with some wonderful Argentine Christian kids once when the 12-year-olds ran up to the concession stand and bought all sorts of things, including a quart of cheap wine. They passed it around until one of the adult sponsors suddenly looked shocked and apologized profusely to me: "Oh, we forgot. You are an American. You don't believe Christians should drink." I did my best to tell them not to mind me .. and they didn't. Not a single kid got even tipsy -- they take very seriously the many verses against drunkenness.
However, we Americans have declared absolutely no alcohol -- and since we're Americans, we're sure its in the Gospels ... somewhere.
Same with nudity. Good grief. If you want to conduct business in Japan, you'd better be prepared to go to the public baths. There, the CEO of the major corporations are reclining in steaming water -- and will be irked to no end if you bring in a bar of soap. One soaps up, then rinses off, then gets in the bath -- where the business deal will be discussed at length and probably finalized.
As a teenager attending Bible college, one of my first weird experiences was when a fellow missionary kid who had grown up in Jamaica strolled down the hall stark naked to take a shower. Several of the American upperclassmen chastized him for being lewd. He was amused to say the least. I began making a point every morning of shaving nude -- mostly to fluster the know-it-alls. Another one of the missionary kids remembered fondly not having to wear a stitch growing up in Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe. Around age seven, he and the native kids his age started getting a little more self-conscious, but still never wore a thing to swim. Many times it was just too hot to endure clothes -- so, they'd herd cattle and play naked until adolescence started creeping up on them and they were "too old" to "run around naked like little kids."
Still they wore nothing to swim and thought it was funny that visting Americans were horrified. The native kids would ask him if it was true that Americans wore swimsuits when they took baths inside their houses.
On a missionary trip to Zaire, a friend of mind told me of how everybody came to church in suits and ties, but when he was invited home, they all stripped down to the bare essentials -- which amounted to one layer of cotton for most folks, but that as his 40-year-old host and his children began to be able to relax around him, the American, they invited him for a swim and were greatly relieved when he nonchalantly skinnydipped. So did they -- and nobody thought anything of it. Only Americans were filthy-minded enough to make it a sexual thing.
At Bible college, about 12 of us missionary kids, including two bookworms with few social skills who had grown up in Hong Kong, a brother and a sister who had grown up dodging goverment troops and guerrillas on the Thai-Burmese border, the Jamaican kid, the African missionary kids, me -- who had spent time in Japan and South America -- and some kids whose parents were missionaries to Amsterdam, would go out to a private lake and skinnydip. I assure you that there was absolutely nothing sexual about it.
We couldn't take the American Christian kids, however -- they would have made a scandal of it -- shocked at our disgusting lack of wet cloth hanging on us. Never mind that swimsuits are micro thin these days and leave nothing to the imagination. American Christians manage to wear them and not be sexual ... go figure!
I'm sorry, but I grew up tanned all over. I get depressed during American winters -- I need my Vitamin D and melatonin! I'm not an exhibitionist. Unless I know you grew up like I did, I'm not going to horrify you by bringing up this shocking subject.
And as you rail on and on about disgusting nudity, I'll chuckle and remember that apparently the fishermen disciples apparently fished naked -- they had to pull on their clothes to follow Jesus. Isaiah apparently wandered around the Holy Land naked for a year -- and it was to shame the nation, and had nothing to do with sexuality. He was never arrested for indecent exposure. Apparently the concept had not been invented yet.
I don't expect to change your mind with this post.
However, try to understand that American culture does not equate "Christian." American cuss words don't even make sense in Japanese -- where the worse curse anybody can pronounce on you is to call you a "foolish little boy" -- bakatari shindao!
But you're happily American.
And I'm sure you think the Apostle Paul was too. He was born in Cincinnati and went to Southwestern seminary, didn't he?
Terry
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