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RE: Free music - 1/15/2008 12:23:56 PM
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edgibson
Posts: 199
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From: Then: upper NY, Now: NC
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the problem with prosecuting the downloader is proving that they downloaded it. The one providing the file has it out there for all to see, the one who gets it doesn't always show up.
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RE: Free music - 1/15/2008 3:42:58 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1240
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From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightoutofdarkness2
And now they've even made it illegal to rip your own CD's. I guess if you want an mp3 player you have to buy an Ipod and re-buy all of your music off of Itunes at 99 cents a pop.
So, if I OWN stacks of my own music that are on CDs that i bought...it's "illegal" to rip them into my own computer, for personal use, and put them on my own iPod for my own personal use?
I have a hard time believing that one.
Any links/documentation?
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Free music - 1/15/2008 4:48:53 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2309
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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Oh my, so much wrong information in this thread.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightoutofdarkness2
Technically it would be stealing, but legally you can download and preview a song for 24 hours if you delete it at that time.
No, there is no law that says that, nor is there a court ruling that has made that part of "fair use". If a copyright owner decides to sue you for copyright infringement because you downloaded their music, the courts will not ask how long you had the music on your computer.
quote:
And now they've even made it illegal to rip your own CD's.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
So, if I OWN stacks of my own music that are on CDs that i bought...it's "illegal" to rip them into my own computer, for personal use, and put them on my own iPod for my own personal use?
I have a hard time believing that one.
Any links/documentation?
While the RIAA has had it's lawyers state in court that they believe it to be copyright infringement to rip music, that is different than the act actually being illegal. Ripping music is considered to be "fair use" and courts have upheld that stance.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightoutofdarkness2
But in America, whether you as a consumer can use Russian sites is a grey area. Technically it's legal, but iffy.
No, it's not technically legal. It's outright illegal. Those Russian sites have no legal right to sell to American customers (I believe it's a violation of the Berne convention.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: meymey
so can we say the inventors of limewire are wrong? and they lead people to steal
I think it's important to note that LimeWire has uses other than pirating music. LimeWire can be used to share any computer file, and there are a great variety of computer files than can be legally shared. For instance, if someone wrote a really cool computer program, and wanted to give it away for free (a very common occurance) but didn't have the money to pay for all the bandwidth, they could put it up on LimeWire and let the people sharing it provide bandwidth for them. Any type of file, be it text, music, video, executeable, etc, can be legally shared by LimeWire, as long as the copyright holder has given permission for it to be shared in that matter.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tenfour
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightoutofdarkness2
Exactly. If you share classical music, I believe that it is basically public domain. But if you put up the latest Eminem album, you're breaking the law.
Actually, all music recordings are "illegal" to share in this way.
The musical notes themselves are public domain, but the recording is copyrighted. All it means when a piece of music is in public domain is that you can create and sell your own recordings of it or sheet music of it without paying anyone any royalties.
Tenfour is both right and wrong. While he is right that the recording of the music is copyrighted, apart from the tune itself being in the public domain, He's not technically right that all music recordings are illegal to share, because it's a matter of permission.
Lets say that I learn to play the piano, and give a public performance. If I were to perform a song that is still under copyright, without the permission of the copyright owner, I would be violating the law. However, if I were to play a song that is in the public domain, say Mozart, then it would be perfectly legal. However, if I record myself giving that performance, then I own the copyright to my own performance (not the song itself, but my playing). If I decided to give that recording away for free, it would be perfectly legal for me to distribute my recording of the song (or of a song I wrote) over LimeWire. People could share it with as many people as they wanted, as long as I had given permission. However, if someone were to take my recording, and put it up one LimeWire without my permission, that would be a violation of copyright, and illegal, because, as the copyright holder, I have the right to decide how my music is distributed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: meymey
so if l pay for the limewire program would it still be stealing
It wouldn't matter what you paid for the program you used to get the music. What matters is, if you have the legal right to be in possession of the music, if you have legal permission from the copyright holder to have a copy of their material. LimeWire can only be used to legally get music that the copyright holder has intentionally put on LimeWire. If the music can be purchased on CD, or from iTunes, or any other legitimate store, then it's almost certain that the copyright holder has not given permission for their music to be on LimeWire or any other P2P network.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightoutofdarkness2
does it really give them the right to charge you so much to buy the stuff?
Copyright holders have the right to charge whatever they want. If I make a really useful program that lots of people want, even need to do their work, I can charge whatever I want for that program. I can charge $600 or more like Adobe does for Photoshop, or I can charge tens of thousands of dollars as some medical programs do. The same is true of music. If I record a song, I can charge $1,008,000.52 for a copy of a 30-second song if I want, because I own the copyright. Now, there might not be anyone willing to pay that much, even if there are lots of people who would like to listen, but I still have the right to charge that much because it's my work and I possess the right to control copies of that work, I own the copy - right.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Stepping away from music, let me use movies. If someone were to purchase a movie, and then have a large showing of this movie to many people, this is illegal. However, in this situation, it is the person showing the film and making it available to others is the one at fault. It is not punishable to those who simply take advantage of the situation to see the movie.
Now, going back to music...why is it illegal for those who take advantage of what was made available to them? Is not the person who made the copy and put it onto a P2P program the guilty one?
Well, one major difference is that someone attending an illegal public viewing doesn't walk away with a copy of the film, like someone downloading via P2P does. That's a major difference, legally.
However, that doesn't address the morality of the situation. If you knew that someone was illegally showing a movie, and you went to see it anyway, that would be immoral, even if you wouldn't be prosecuted for it.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Free music - 1/15/2008 11:29:03 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2005
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
However, that doesn't address the morality of the situation. If you knew that someone was illegally showing a movie, and you went to see it anyway, that would be immoral, even if you wouldn't be prosecuted for it.
I totally agree about the immorality. I was merely commenting on the seemingly conflicting penalties given out for these similar acts.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Free music - 1/16/2008 3:04:56 PM
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lightoutofdarkness2
Posts: 92
Joined: 7/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tenfour
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightoutofdarkness2
quote:
ORIGINAL: David-West
Pirating music is a sin because it is stealing. People often try to justify digital piracy because they aren't "physically taking anything" or "hurting anyone." This is absolutely false. You are taking something that belongs to the artist without paying for it, causing them monetary damage. Look at it this way: if you buy an album from, say, iTunes, the artist is getting a percentage of the $9.99 that you pay. If you pirate it, they are not getting the money that they rightfully deserve. It is morally NO different than stealing a CD from a store shelf.
The argument that the record companies are greedy and the artist has already made plenty of money is nonsense. It may be true, but that does not make stealing their music any more acceptable.
I'm going to have to shut you down a little there. You refer to it as "nonsense" then directly correlate it to "stealing". Yeah, it doesn't give you the right to steal, but does it really give them the right to charge you so much to buy the stuff? They are basing their prices on the standard 10-song CD, but what if you make a mix - such as a best of - with 20 songs? It would then cost you $20 to make the mix. The Elvis #1's CD has 31 tracks. Assuming that CD didn't exist and you had to buy the individual tracks from Itunes, it would cost you $31.
So you're not really getting that great of a deal with these "legal" methods.
I just had to point that out. Because people tend to use certain language to knock down an idea. Like the other night I mentioned Universal Healthcare in a conversation and some of the words thrown out were "communist" and "socialist". Those ideas scare people so much that when associated with something that might work with modification, people are made afraid to try it.
Why should it matter whether they are charging what you consider to be a fair price? If Wal-mart charges $250 for a toaster, that does not make it suddenly okay to shop lift that toaster because you want it so bad.
See, this is why I'm ranting. Stop listening to the corporate machine and think about what I said. I never said it was right to steal. I said that they really should lower their prices because they charge ridiculous amounts of money for the product. I hear people complain all the time that they paid for a full album and realized that most of the tracks are filler. And at the price Itunes charges, the cost to fill up a CD may be very high. Like edgibson said, maybe we should just stop buying the CD's period. Then they would have to lower the prices to compete.
See. you assume that I support the stealing only because I understand why it happens. You would be wrong about that.
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RE: Free music - 1/17/2008 5:56:25 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2309
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I totally agree about the immorality. I was merely commenting on the seemingly conflicting penalties given out for these similar acts.
There are similarities, true, but there are also significant differences. Lets say that someone stole a car, that is a clear-cut crime. However, if they were to give a ride to someone, and that person had no idea the car was stolen, I don't think there are any laws that would convict them (assuming they cooperated with police and weren't charged as conspirators, however, the same would hold true of those watching an illegal public performance.) However, if I'm not mistaken, there are laws against receiving stolen property. If someone buys or accepts as stolen car as a "gift" they can be charged. The two acts are similar, both end up in getting a ride in a stolen vehicle, what is the difference? Possession of the car. Same goes with illegal downloading versus viewing an illegal public viewing. When someone violates copyright by downloading content without permission, they have a copy of that media. They are in possession of something they do not have the legal right to possess.
There is something to the old adage that "possession is nine-tenths of the law". Even if no one is sure where the idiom came from, or what it originally meant, a lot of law is focused on who possess what, when, why, how, etc.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Free music - 3/16/2008 10:38:12 PM
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meymey
Posts: 36
Joined: 1/11/2008
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where does the music come from thats what l want to know
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RE: Free music - 3/16/2008 11:49:03 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3546
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Music is stored on computers all over the world--computers exactly like the ones you and I are using. If I have Limewire and set up the software to share the music files on my computer, then you and every other Limewire user will have access to those files. Limewire will make it possible for you to download the music from my computer to your computer.
I assume that's what you're asking.
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RE: Free music - 3/17/2008 7:15:49 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3839
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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This is a difficult question. As an indie "recording artist" who has been ripped off by a brother in a way that would never happen at the major studios (a portion of a track was lifted and placed in a track of another artist) I can understand what having your stuff copied without your permission is all about. However, I also understand the RIAA does not look at the sales of indie recordings as important at all.
They pushed for the current law to protect the major labels who were seeing drops in sales due to online free music downloads. However, in the indie market it was just the opposite; the more free downloads an indie CD had, the more it sold. So it seems the major labels tried to kill 2 birds with the same law: boost their own sagging sales and suppress the indie market.
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RE: Free music - 3/17/2008 9:14:08 AM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
Posts: 880
Joined: 9/6/2007
From: SW Missouri
Status: offline
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You can put songs from the internet on a cd??? Wow! I have songs I listen to on the computer but there is no way to make a cd. On myspace every band/sing has a site with music. I also have a playlist that has a ton of music. But I do not see any difference between that or listening to the radio.
About movies. So our youth movie nights are illegal because it is a crowd?
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RE: Free music - 3/17/2008 9:31:33 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3546
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
About movies. So our youth movie nights are illegal because it is a crowd?
Technically, in many instances, yes.
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RE: Free music - 3/17/2008 9:35:10 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3839
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
You can put songs from the internet on a cd??? Wow! Yes if you have the right software.
quote:
I have songs I listen to on the computer but there is no way to make a cd.
On myspace every band/sing has a site with music. I also have a playlist that has a ton of music.
But I do not see any difference between that or listening to the radio. No difference. Even no difference from taping a radio show. I am not sure of the legality of burning a cd from an internet streaming music site, but since the courts have traditionally allowed taping off broadcast radio, there is at least a legal precedent for allowing it.quote:
About movies. So our youth movie nights are illegal because it is a crowd? Yes. There is a limit to the number of viewers, but I do not know what it is - probably somewhere about 10 or 12.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Free music - 4/5/2008 2:18:03 PM
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tspencley
Posts: 15
Joined: 3/21/2008
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copying music from the internet is not a sin. somebody owns the file and they decide to share it. that file gets passed from one person to the next. what if i gave someone a bible, then they bought a new one and then gave it to someone else. did any of those people "steal" that bible? OF COURSE NOT!!
by the way i use ares for my downloads its better than limewire 
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RE: Free music - 4/6/2008 3:22:01 PM
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hawknelsonismyfriend
Posts: 2071
Joined: 4/5/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
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This is immensely confusing for a 15 year old.
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RE: Free music - 4/7/2008 11:31:13 AM
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phreddy
Posts: 227
Joined: 3/28/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tspencley
copying music from the internet is not a sin. somebody owns the file and they decide to share it. that file gets passed from one person to the next. what if i gave someone a bible, then they bought a new one and then gave it to someone else. did any of those people "steal" that bible? OF COURSE NOT!!
by the way i use ares for my downloads its better than limewire
You might have a point if the person that orignally bought the file no longer had access to it (very much like the Bible analogy you used). However, by putting the file on the interent, the orignal buyer allowed multiple copies to be made and kept use of the orignal file. That is illegal.
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RE: Free music - 4/7/2008 11:37:20 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3546
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hawknelsonismyfriend
This is immensely confusing for a 15 year old.
This is legal:
1) you may rip your own music into your mp3 player
2) you may buy music online to download
3) you may download music offered for free by the record labels/artists
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RE: Free music - 4/11/2008 10:01:43 PM
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tspencley
Posts: 15
Joined: 3/21/2008
Status: offline
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if limewire was illegal, limewire would be faced with criminal charges (e.g. abiding in theft), but that is not the case. again i can say limewire is a place were people share files. sharing is not illegal. you will not go to hell for sharing, now if the original owner of the file stole it, then they could face some trouble.
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RE: Free music - 4/12/2008 12:15:37 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2005
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tspencley
again i can say limewire is a place were people share files. sharing is not illegal.
Sharing copyrighted material is in fact illegal. It always has been and always will be.
You can share stuff that you have created, or stuff that belongs in the public domain.
You do not have the rights to buy the latest Linkin Park cd, and put it on limewire, nor do you have the rights to go on limewire to find it.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: Free music - 4/12/2008 3:05:37 AM
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tspencley
Posts: 15
Joined: 3/21/2008
Status: offline
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yes ben you are right, but it also depends on if permission was given. whoever posted the file has to be accountable for that.
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RE: Free music - 4/12/2008 11:51:21 AM
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lw9
Posts: 1175
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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Good questions, meymey. Just from reading through here, it sounds like it's not Limewire itself that is the problem. It's what someone may be sharing through Limewire that is the problem. If Limewire is just a consortium of private users sharing their personal music collection, they don't have the right to do that unless it's public domain and non-copyrighted material. Just because no one is policing the music being shared doesn't mean that it's right or legal. No matter what method is used, downloading that kind of material is stealing.
quote:
To be honest, I think that greedy record labels shouldn't be suing people and Itunes, etc should drop their prices. Especially since what they sell you have to burn and re-rip in order to have the highly useful mp3 format that you can play with any program or on any mp3 player.
quote:
copying music from the internet is not a sin. somebody owns the file and they decide to share it. that file gets passed from one person to the next. what if i gave someone a bible, then they bought a new one and then gave it to someone else. did any of those people "steal" that bible? OF COURSE NOT!!
quote:
again i can say limewire is a place were people share files. sharing is not illegal. you will not go to hell for sharing, now if the original owner of the file stole it, then they could face some trouble.
Same old excuses, same old justifications.
So... who's really the greedy ones: The record companies and artists who poured time and money into producing, advertising, and creating an album and therefore have earned the right to charge money for it, OR the people who feel falsely entitled to free music and continually bypass the law and bypass paying the artists and labels for their work.
The record companies have the right to charge whatever they like. Don't like the price? Don't buy it. Can't afford it? Wait until you can. But downloading music off the internet without paying the appropriate party is STEALING, whether you like that word or not.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 4/12/2008 12:26:24 PM >
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RE: Free music - 7/2/2008 2:04:39 PM
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tspencley
Posts: 15
Joined: 3/21/2008
Status: offline
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in fact im getting ready to download probably about 200 songs from ares right when i get done here
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