|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/29/2008 10:40:06 AM
|
|
|
tracydolls
Posts: 653
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
|
quote:
While I am of the opinion that things could get very ugly in the near future(not just for us but the whole world), I don't believe running will help much as I believe any major problems will be worldwide (like food shortages, persecution etc...)
agreed, I just like to fantasize that I will not see, talk, or hear any evil of this if I run.  LOL! Back to reality.
So this verse is NOT a mark of beast?
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Are people comfortable with a chip in them?
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/29/2008 11:16:54 AM
|
|
|
Midwest
Posts: 410
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
While I am of the opinion that things could get very ugly in the near future(not just for us but the whole world), I don't believe running will help much as I believe any major problems will be worldwide (like food shortages, persecution etc...)
agreed, I just like to fantasize that I will not see, talk, or hear any evil of this if I run. LOL! Back to reality.
So this verse is NOT a mark of beast?
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Sure it talks about the mark of the beast, I did not say it isn't, but nothing in that verse says it is a chip or even a physical mark that you are I could see. Nothing in that verse says it can't be a spirirtual mark just like the marks I demonstrated in my earlier post #148
quote:
Are people comfortable with a chip in them?
I can't speak for all people, I can only speak for myself, but I certainly would not allow a chip, not because I think it will be the mark of the beast(I don't), but because IMO privacy concerns alone are more then enough reason to say no to the chip.
< Message edited by Midwest -- 4/29/2008 11:54:23 AM >
_____________________________
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/29/2008 3:10:01 PM
|
|
|
Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
America is the super power that is protecting the small state of Israel.
Are we the only country that helps Israel, don't other countries help?
America is the only country that helps Israel in any sizeable form. The only other two or three countries do little to nothing for Israel, and are only doing it at our request! So no, no other country really helps Israel. Most other countries hate Israel and blame them for the conflict in the Middle East.
_____________________________
- Brian
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/29/2008 3:21:15 PM
|
|
|
tracydolls
Posts: 653
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
|
quote:
America is the only country that helps Israel in any sizeable form. The only other two or three countries do little to nothing for Israel, and are only doing it at our request! So no, no other country really helps Israel. Most other countries hate Israel and blame them for the conflict in the Middle East.
Ok, so no european, russian, asian countries help. I gotta look this up. Are you for real?
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/29/2008 3:23:01 PM
|
|
|
Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
So this verse is NOT a mark of beast?
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Are people comfortable with a chip in them?
Not many people would be comfortable with a chip in them for privacy concerns. The chip tracks your every move. It's not the mark of the beast though. How would a chip have anything to do with denying God? You must deny God to be eternally condemned like Revelation says about the people who take the mark of the beast.
You know, if you take Allah written in Arabic and you look at it in a mirror, it's almost exactly the same as 666 written in New Testament Greek. It even has the two crossed swords of the Muslim Jihad. What's also interesting is that the Muslims openly teach that numerically, the number of the Koran is 666, and the Koran has 6,666 sentences in it.
Their temple, the Dome of the Rock, that's on the God's temple mount in Jerusalem has plaques in it that say: "God forbid that he would have a son." That's pretty anti-christ if you ask me.
The Jews used to take the law, roll it up in a tiny scroll and put it in a box about 1 inch by 1 inch by 1 inch. They'd tie one box to their forehead and one to their right hand. This symbolized that what you believe in your head you will carry out with your hand. The mark of the beast is in the forehead and the hand, meaning it's a belief system in your head, which you carry out with the works of your hands. If you believe the Koran, whose number is 666, in your head, you will carry out its works with your hands. That's the mark of the beast. And if you look at the beasts in Daniel and Revelation, they're clearly identified as Assyria, Babylon and Persia (Syria, Iraq & Iran). Those are "the beast" and they were the first Jihad back in the 600s when the Dome of the Rock was built. Today, they are a rebirthed beast of old, and they call this their second Jihad, and their second Caliphate (Kingdom). They have stated flat out that it is their intent to rule the world and kill all infidels if they will not convert to Islam. This is coming from people like the leader of Iran!
If you look at the four horsemen, they have symbolic colors. White, Red, Black and Green. These are the four ruling powers of the world. There's a secular book called Catholicism, Communism and Capitalism: the three powers that rule the world. And sure enough, White is officially the color of the Pope. He must be seen wearing white clothes at all time, has a white car, white plane, white helicopter, and if he had a horse, it'd be white too. Red China, Red Russia... communist countries always have red as their color. The official color of Capitalism is black. Time Magazine even had a cover that had a black flag on it that said, "The Black Flat of Capitalism." And finally, the fourth horse. Sure, you thought it was pale, but it's actually green. Chloros is the Greek word they translated pale, but in all three places in the New Testament where Chloros is used, it is translated "Green." It's where we get the world Chlorophyll, which is a green substance in plants. So, it's a green horse. Green is the official color of Islam. So Islam is the fourth ruling power in the world. Again we see Islam springing into prophecy. Islamic nations have been very powerful in the past, ruling most of the known world at least 3-4 times in the past 2600 years. Islam is the beast, and belief in Allah is the mark of the beast.
_____________________________
- Brian
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/29/2008 3:25:10 PM
|
|
|
Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
America is the only country that helps Israel in any sizeable form. The only other two or three countries do little to nothing for Israel, and are only doing it at our request! So no, no other country really helps Israel. Most other countries hate Israel and blame them for the conflict in the Middle East.
Ok, so no european, russian, asian countries help. I gotta look this up. Are you for real?
Yep, I'm for real. Look it up. You won't find anyone really that supports Israel. The U.S. is the only one. I'll show you something else that's interesting too that kind of goes along with this. You said to show you America in the Bible? I'll show you in my next post...
_____________________________
- Brian
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/29/2008 4:03:16 PM
|
|
|
Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
Time, Times & Half a Time
There are three "time, times and half a time" prophecies in the Bible. 2 in Daniel for the Jews and one in Revelation for the Christians. Besides, why would God put a prophecy about the Jews in a Christian book? lol First, let's figure out what time, times and half a time means.
The Jews translate it to say 2 1/2 times. Here are some verses that back that up:
Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man
perceiveth it not.
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea,
twice; but I will proceed no further.
Psa 62:11 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this;
that power belongeth unto God.
So, once = 1, and twice = 1 more. Once, Twice = 2 This is why the Jews translate it 2 1/2 times.
But what is "time"?
2 Peter 3:8
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
The word "day" in that verse is "hemera" in the original Greek. Hemera can be translated as day or time. When speaking of the day of the Lord, that's usually when this word is translated "day." When speaking of something else, it's usually translated "time." In those "times" or in that "day" or in those "days." KJV translates "hemera" as time only 3 times, while NASB translates "hemera" as time 12 times! Let's insert time instead of day into the verse:
2 Peter 3:8
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one "time" is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one "time".
Time = 1,000 years
2 1/2 times = 2,500 years
Let's test that theory.
Daniel 7:25
25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
He is Satan, and He wears down the saints (Jews, since this is an Old Testament prophecy to them) by way of Satanically ruled nations. The Jews were the only God control nation, so all others had false religions, false Gods, and were Satanic in nature, wanting power and wealth. So, this prophecy basically says that the Jews will be ruled by other nations for 2,500 years. This prophecy was given in 552 BC (look it up if you like).
-552 BC + 2,500 = 1948 AD (the year Israel became a nation again without anyone ruling over them) Perfectly Fulfilled
Daniel 12:7
7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering (or scattering) the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.
This verse basically says that "they" (Satanically controlled nations) will scatter the holy people and their power (the Jews and their temple), and the end of this scattering, after 2,500 years, will be when the Jews come back together (no longer scattered) and regain their temple. The Jewish temple is so very important to them. It's where they believe the Holy Spirit dwells in the Holy of Holies in the Ark of the Covenant. God said no army could defeat them when they had the Ark of the Covenant with them. You touched it and you would instantly be struck dead. It was their power, and it resided in their temple. This prophecy was given in 533 BC (look it up).
-533 BC + 2,500 = 1967 AD (The year the Jews took the temple mount & Jerusalem back from the Muslims in the Six Day War)
So, these two prophecies were fulfilled to the year for the Jews. What about the one given to the Christians?
Revelation 12:14
14But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Alright, so this prophecy is about the Christians (Gentile church) and them being protected for 2,500 years. Let's see who this might be indicating. If you go back to when Israel split into two separate parts, you find that there were 10 northern tribes called Israel (or Ephraim). And there were 2 southern tribes called Judah (the Jews). Assyria took over the 10 norther tribes and lead them away captive into the world and dispersed them, and they were never to be heard from again. Many were dispersed into the Caucus mountains, which is where the race "Caucasion" started with many old Israelis (Whites). From there, the Caucasions spread out all over the world and mixed in with the nations of the known world. These old Israelis were now mixed in with the Gentiles. When the news of Jesus came along, these old Israelis recongized Him, and accepted Him along with their Gentile friends. Suddenly, you get a lot of Christianity rising up in the world among these Gentile nations due to the Israelis that intermixed with them.
Now, remember that the 10 northern tribes were called Israel OR Ephraim. There are prophecies about Ephraim returning from the West, being planted in a plesant place, and being guarded or saved by the waters of the earth. But Ephraim is never heard from again in the Bible. The 10 tribes (Ephraim) were taken over and dispersed in 724 BC.
-724 BC + 2,500 years = 1776 AD (the year the United States became a nation)
It is very likely that the United States is Ephraim come into her new "pleasant place" to the "west," guarded by "waters."
Now, let's see if this lines up with another prophecy in Revelation 11 about the two witnesses:
In Revelation 11, we're told that the two witnesses are two lampstands and two olive trees. Revelation 1:20 says candlesticks represent churches, and Romans says the native olive tree is the Jewish people, and the wild olive tree is the Christian church (Gentile church). Therefore, the two witnesses are the Jewish Church and the Gentile church. And this is a New Testament prophecy in Revelation for the Christians. Seeing as how the time, times and half a time prophecies come right out to the dates that are extremely significant to the Jews and the Christians, I'd say that we can correctly identify the US as Ephraim (or at least part of Ephraim), and the Jews as the other witness. In the prophecy it says they're mourning, because they're in sacloth and ashes. Why would they mourn? For the loss of their land promised by God, and the lose of their power of and in the temple mount where they give sacrifices for sin to represent their coming Messiah's sacrifice for sin.
And the U.S. is the only nation that really protects and gives foreign aid to Israel. Imagine that. The two witnesses still linked up to one another 2700 years later after Israel split from Judah. Here are some other intersting facts about this:
Old Israel, before the split, had 12 tribes. Joseph's tribe splits into two tribes: Ephraim and Menasseh. So it technically becomes 13 tribes. The United states had 12 colonies, but Carolina was too big to govern, so they made it into North and South Carolina, and that became our first 13 colonies which are represented by the 13 stripes on our flag.
Old Israel had 48 cities in which God said the priests must be distributed through so that they could give sacrifices for the people. The United States, since 1917, has had 48 contiguous states. From 1917 to 1959, the United States had 48 stars on its flag to represent those 48 contiguous states. So, we just happen to have the two things we have in common with old Israel symbolized on our flag. Sounds like a bit more than a coincidence to me.
Also, if you read about the Founding Fathers and how they created the Constitution, you'll see how they actually got most of our laws from the Old Testament law. Even those that didn't believe in the Christian God believed in a Creator, and they all agreed that there was something called Nature's law and the law of Nature's Creator. You can read all about this in the book The 5,000 Year Leap, which is a great book recounting exactly how the Founders built the constitution. You will find all KINDS of statements from our Founding Fathers in the book, as well as statements from others in other countries that wrote about how wonderful our nation was with it's freedom that was held in balance by religion and morals. We were the first modern free nation in the world, and we made it work due to religion and moral character and virtue. That book is a REALLY good read, and very important for people to get ahold of and understand. I highly recommend it.
_____________________________
- Brian
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/29/2008 4:05:22 PM
|
|
|
Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Revelation 18:3-4 quote:
So, how can one who believes America is Babylon go directly against God's command to "come out of her (Babylon) My people"?
How do you know I'm going directly against it. How do you know where my passports are. How do you even know I'm not in
Canada right now?
So, if America were Babylon, would you feel like you were doing something wrong by living here when God says "come out of her (Babylon) My people"?
< Message edited by Cephyr13 -- 4/30/2008 3:29:21 PM >
_____________________________
- Brian
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/29/2008 6:43:30 PM
|
|
|
Sinner-Saint
Posts: 336
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
So, if America were Babylon, were you feel like you were doing something wrong by living here when God says "come out of her (Babylon) My people"?
I think your symbolic interpretations aren't necessary as to the chip and the horsemen. Nor do I think Islam has any bearing to the King of the North other than that the present Secular First World versus Terrorism defines the final conflict of North versus South as per Daniel 11:32-45.
As to America in prophecy, I think we are the First Beast of Daniel 7:4. There are certainly parallels between the beasts and the Kingdoms of Nebuchadnezzar's statue, but they are not the same.
As to Revelation 18 and the WTC, there certainly are valid comparisons, but the deciding factor against 9-11 fulfilling that passage is that neither music, nor work, nor light, nor laughter will be found in the New Babylon afterward. Think of 9-11 done with nuclear weapons versus aircraft. God can use terrorists to fulfill His Plans. 9-11 does show something along the lines of prophecy though in that Capitalism does trade in the lives and souls of men and we ought not be too proud of our economic system.
As to your quoting Rev 18:4, might not you consider the audience may be intended for others (i.e. Jews). We must come out of the world, but I don't think our physical locality has any impact upon Jesus' ability to pick us up on the Day of the Lord. However, with the Jews, they must be in Israel for any chance to escape and join the Remnant which will survive the one 'seven.'
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/30/2008 4:25:10 PM
|
|
|
Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
So, if America were Babylon, would you feel like you were doing something wrong by living here when God says "come out of her (Babylon) My people"?
I think your symbolic interpretations aren't necessary as to the chip and the horsemen. Nor do I think Islam has any bearing to the King of the North other than that the present Secular First World versus Terrorism defines the final conflict of North versus South as per Daniel 11:32-45.
In 722-24 BC, Assyria (directly to the North of Israel) came down directly from the North and took over the northern 10 tribes, then led them away captive and dispersed them into the rest of the world, never to be heard from again. I'd say the king of the North is very likely from Syria. And since I don't buy into an antichrist, I'd never say the king of the North is him. I think the original beast was the 1st Jihad, and the image of the beast is the second Jihad. And the two horned beast that looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon is the Western Christian nations that existed back in 688 AD to 1967 AD. We're told what horns are in prophecy. They're empires or nations that rule. What we find is that twice from 688 to 1967 while the Muslims ruled the temple mount, Western Christian nations ruled in the Holy Land as well by coming in and taking over Jerusalem for a short time: once during the Crusades, and once during the British Mandate of WWI. Notice how it says this two horned beast rules IN THE PRESENCE of the beast? They coexisted... twice. And this two horned beast is "looks like a lamb," which is always a reference to Christ, and so these are nations under the guise of Christianity, because they "speak like a dragon" which the dragon is always Satan in prophecy. We see in Revelation how a lamb comes up to the thrown and it's clearly Christ, and we see how the dragon is always Satan in Revelation as well. So, these nations apparently are using religion as part of their reasoning for going down and taking control of the Holy Land, but they have alterior motives. If you look into the reason why the Crusades actually occured, you'll find out that it was not about religion. The Catholic church was telling people that if they fought in the Crusades, their sins would be forgiven. But what was actually going on is that the king wanted the land in the Middle East because of the oil and other resources he had heard were abundant there. It was a power play, and they used religion as a means to get people to fight in that war. I don't know enough about the British Mandate to speak of it, though.
It is also said that this two horned beast causes fire to come down from heaven "in the presence" of the beast (the Leopard-Bear-Lion beast if what we're talking about, which is Assyria, Iraq and Iran). And if the Western Christian nations are the two horned beast, and they give this beast life and then cause fire to come down out of heaven as well, it makes a lot of sense. The first Jihad was dead 152 years after it started. The great wound was in 732 AD when a 300,000 man Muslim army was defeated in France by a 15,000 man Christian army that only lost 1,500 men. If that battle had not been won, Muslims would rule today and we would all be speaking Arabic right now and praying to Allah. That's how important that battle was. In the 1600's, another attempt was made to take over Europe in an attack on Vienna where another huge Muslim army was defeated by a Christian army of very few men in comparison. So the beast was wounded greatly, and then in the 1900's, with the invent of the automobile and airplanes and the uses for oil, suddenly, the Western nations are buying oil from the Middle Eastern nations (the beast) again. That money is what caused them to be able to build their current empires and start their Jihad up all over again. So we've supplied their new Jihad with money through oil purchases, and then we end up attacking them in the first Gulf War, and now this Iraq war. If you saw the "Shock and Awe" campaign on TV, you'll know what "fire reigning down from heaven" really means. That's how the two horned beast caused fire to come down out of heaven "in the presence of the beast."
quote:
As to America in prophecy, I think we are the First Beast of Daniel 7:4. There are certainly parallels between the beasts and the Kingdoms of Nebuchadnezzar's statue, but they are not the same.
I believed for many years that the lion with eagles wings was Great Britian and the United States separating from it when the wings were plucked. The UK has the national symbol of the Lion, and the United States has the symbol of the Eagle. That I understand. But I don't buy it anymore, because I've seen how those prophecies line up perfectly with Greece, Babylon and Medo-Persia. Babylon's symbol was the lion and eagles wings represent great power, which was plucked from them during the end of their reign of the world at large. Greece had the national symbol of the leopard, and Medo-Persia had the national symbol of the bear. I may have two of those backwards. I think I may have mixed these up in my explanation before and said Assyria instead of Greece. If I did, I apologize. Anyway, the fact that the lion, bear and leopard are in exactly the same order as they ruled in the holy land, and then are followed by the fourth beast with ten horns, which is Rome, then it makes far more sense. Rome was broken into pieces which is the European nations now, which is exactly what happens to the ten horned beast. Also, we see John write this:
Rev 17:10-11 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and
one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh,
he must continue a short space.
During John's lifetime, Rome was in power, so Rome was
empire number six, the empire that IS. The five fallen would
then have to be five empires that controlled the Holy Land before
John's time. Four of those empires can easily be documented as
Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. The identity of the first
king is less certain; it could be Egypt, but it is more probably the
Canaanites.
A 7th empire would follow Rome and continue a little while.
After Rome fell in 476AD, the next major empire to rule in the
Holy Land was the Leopard-Bear-Lion, and in God’s eternal eyes,
the Moslems did remain a little while. 1260 years is a “short
space” for an eternal God.
--Excerpt from The False Prophet, pg 57-58 in pdf format, by Ellis H. Skolfield
http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf
It fits far too well to go randomly throwing America into being the first beast. Doesn't make sense...
quote:
As to Revelation 18 and the WTC, there certainly are valid comparisons, but the deciding factor against 9-11 fulfilling that passage is that neither music, nor work, nor light, nor laughter will be found in the New Babylon afterward. Think of 9-11 done with nuclear weapons versus aircraft. God can use terrorists to fulfill His Plans. 9-11 does show something along the lines of prophecy though in that Capitalism does trade in the lives and souls of men and we ought not be too proud of our economic system.
You believe this is God's plan and He's making it play out? I never viewed it that way, because God says in Genesis 1:26 that He gives mankind dominion/sovereign rule over the earth and everything on it (including ourselves). For Him to interfere without our asking Him to do so is against our free will. What God was doing by giving us prophecy was showing us what the WORLD would do from Old Testament days to the return of Jesus Christ. He was not showing what HE wanted to do. God does not go around exacting punishment on everyone around the world. Satan does that. The way I look at this is like so: Jesus said the world would hate us on account of Him. And the disciples went on missions and Paul and others were brutally attacked for their belief in Christ. Missionaries today are still attacked for their belief in Christ. America is the only nation that built it's costitution heavily depending on the law of the Old Testament and Judeo-Christian values. I'm reading a book called The 5,000 Year Leap that takes you through everything that happened when our founders built our constitution and how they came to their decisions and why they did it the way they did it. And you would not believe how much God is discussed and implimented in the structure. They talk about how they believe in Nature's Laws and the Laws of the God of Nature, the Creator. Because we are a Christian nation, and because we protect Israel and we are the only thing standing in the way of the Muslims destroying Israel, they attacked us. It is required by the Koran to kill the infidels if they will not convert, and the Jews and Christians are specifically talked about there. We were attacked for exactly the reason missionaries are attacked and killed in other countries, especially Muslim countries: because of our belief on Christ. Nothing more.
If your theory were true that a nation who is in obedience to God would not be judged by God by way of attack from a Muslim nation, then we'd have to apply that to Christians as well and say that a Christian who is in obedience to God could not have a Muslim come and kill him for preaching the Gospel on the missions field. Since when did we get this idea that if we're "good little Christians," nothing bad will happen to us? And how did that extend to a national level? I never understood that. The US is hated by the rest of the world. Gee, I wonder why? I think that's clear fulfillment of what Jesus said about the world hating us for loving Him. That's just my opinion, though. Everyone's free to interpret 9/11 however they like.
quote:
As to your quoting Rev 18:4, might not you consider the audience may be intended for others (i.e. Jews). We must come out of the world, but I don't think our physical locality has any impact upon Jesus' ability to pick us up on the Day of the Lord. However, with the Jews, they must be in Israel for any chance to escape and join the Remnant which will survive the one 'seven.'
If you are correct and God is telling the Jews to come out of "her" in Revelation 18:4, then God is like the worst strategist ever. LOL Because why would God have all of the Old Testament to tell that to the Jews, and then blind them to Jesus so they'll reject the New Testament, then warn the Jews in the New Testmant, fully knowing the Jews aren't going to read or believe in it? LOL
No, the Old Testament prophecies were written by Jews, about the Jews, and for the Jews. The New Testament prophecies were written by Christians, about the Christians, and for the Christians. And that's the best strategy I can think of if you're God and you want to inform your people. You inform them in the book you know they'll be reading. lol Make sense?
And since I don't buy into the 70th week being a single seven years in the future, I won't comment on the "one seven." I don't quite know what you're implying there anyway, exactly, so I can't really comment on it.
_____________________________
- Brian
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/30/2008 5:38:29 PM
|
|
|
tracydolls
Posts: 653
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
|
quote:
No, the Old Testament prophecies were written by Jews, about the Jews, and for the Jews. The New Testament prophecies were written by Christians, about the Christians, and for the Christians.
I am just trying to keep up here. The Ot is NOT for Christians, the NT is NOT for Jews? Was'nt Paul a writer of some of NT a JEW and Christian?
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/30/2008 7:51:51 PM
|
|
|
.....
Posts: 1351
Status: offline
|
So many words.....so little truth. And some Muslims even got the Doctrine about the anti al-Mahdi correct, what happened to you?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
So, if America were Babylon, would you feel like you were doing something wrong by living here when God says "come out of her (Babylon) My people"?
I think your symbolic interpretations aren't necessary as to the chip and the horsemen. Nor do I think Islam has any bearing to the King of the North other than that the present Secular First World versus Terrorism defines the final conflict of North versus South as per Daniel 11:32-45.
In 722-24 BC, Assyria (directly to the North of Israel) came down directly from the North and took over the northern 10 tribes, then led them away captive and dispersed them into the rest of the world, never to be heard from again. I'd say the king of the North is very likely from Syria. And since I don't buy into an antichrist, I'd never say the king of the North is him. I think the original beast was the 1st Jihad, and the image of the beast is the second Jihad. And the two horned beast that looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon is the Western Christian nations that existed back in 688 AD to 1967 AD. We're told what horns are in prophecy. They're empires or nations that rule. What we find is that twice from 688 to 1967 while the Muslims ruled the temple mount, Western Christian nations ruled in the Holy Land as well by coming in and taking over Jerusalem for a short time: once during the Crusades, and once during the British Mandate of WWI. Notice how it says this two horned beast rules IN THE PRESENCE of the beast? They coexisted... twice. And this two horned beast is "looks like a lamb," which is always a reference to Christ, and so these are nations under the guise of Christianity, because they "speak like a dragon" which the dragon is always Satan in prophecy. We see in Revelation how a lamb comes up to the thrown and it's clearly Christ, and we see how the dragon is always Satan in Revelation as well. So, these nations apparently are using religion as part of their reasoning for going down and taking control of the Holy Land, but they have alterior motives. If you look into the reason why the Crusades actually occured, you'll find out that it was not about religion. The Catholic church was telling people that if they fought in the Crusades, their sins would be forgiven. But what was actually going on is that the king wanted the land in the Middle East because of the oil and other resources he had heard were abundant there. It was a power play, and they used religion as a means to get people to fight in that war. I don't know enough about the British Mandate to speak of it, though.
It is also said that this two horned beast causes fire to come down from heaven "in the presence" of the beast (the Leopard-Bear-Lion beast if what we're talking about, which is Assyria, Iraq and Iran). And if the Western Christian nations are the two horned beast, and they give this beast life and then cause fire to come down out of heaven as well, it makes a lot of sense. The first Jihad was dead 152 years after it started. The great wound was in 732 AD when a 300,000 man Muslim army was defeated in France by a 15,000 man Christian army that only lost 1,500 men. If that battle had not been won, Muslims would rule today and we would all be speaking Arabic right now and praying to Allah. That's how important that battle was. In the 1600's, another attempt was made to take over Europe in an attack on Vienna where another huge Muslim army was defeated by a Christian army of very few men in comparison. So the beast was wounded greatly, and then in the 1900's, with the invent of the automobile and airplanes and the uses for oil, suddenly, the Western nations are buying oil from the Middle Eastern nations (the beast) again. That money is what caused them to be able to build their current empires and start their Jihad up all over again. So we've supplied their new Jihad with money through oil purchases, and then we end up attacking them in the first Gulf War, and now this Iraq war. If you saw the "Shock and Awe" campaign on TV, you'll know what "fire reigning down from heaven" really means. That's how the two horned beast caused fire to come down out of heaven "in the presence of the beast."
quote:
As to America in prophecy, I think we are the First Beast of Daniel 7:4. There are certainly parallels between the beasts and the Kingdoms of Nebuchadnezzar's statue, but they are not the same.
I believed for many years that the lion with eagles wings was Great Britian and the United States separating from it when the wings were plucked. The UK has the national symbol of the Lion, and the United States has the symbol of the Eagle. That I understand. But I don't buy it anymore, because I've seen how those prophecies line up perfectly with Greece, Babylon and Medo-Persia. Babylon's symbol was the lion and eagles wings represent great power, which was plucked from them during the end of their reign of the world at large. Greece had the national symbol of the leopard, and Medo-Persia had the national symbol of the bear. I may have two of those backwards. I think I may have mixed these up in my explanation before and said Assyria instead of Greece. If I did, I apologize. Anyway, the fact that the lion, bear and leopard are in exactly the same order as they ruled in the holy land, and then are followed by the fourth beast with ten horns, which is Rome, then it makes far more sense. Rome was broken into pieces which is the European nations now, which is exactly what happens to the ten horned beast. Also, we see John write this:
Rev 17:10-11 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and
one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh,
he must continue a short space.
During John's lifetime, Rome was in power, so Rome was
empire number six, the empire that IS. The five fallen would
then have to be five empires that controlled the Holy Land before
John's time. Four of those empires can easily be documented as
Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. The identity of the first
king is less certain; it could be Egypt, but it is more probably the
Canaanites.
A 7th empire would follow Rome and continue a little while.
After Rome fell in 476AD, the next major empire to rule in the
Holy Land was the Leopard-Bear-Lion, and in God’s eternal eyes,
the Moslems did remain a little while. 1260 years is a “short
space” for an eternal God.
--Excerpt from The False Prophet, pg 57-58 in pdf format, by Ellis H. Skolfield
http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf
It fits far too well to go randomly throwing America into being the first beast. Doesn't make sense...
quote:
As to Revelation 18 and the WTC, there certainly are valid comparisons, but the deciding factor against 9-11 fulfilling that passage is that neither music, nor work, nor light, nor laughter will be found in the New Babylon afterward. Think of 9-11 done with nuclear weapons versus aircraft. God can use terrorists to fulfill His Plans. 9-11 does show something along the lines of prophecy though in that Capitalism does trade in the lives and souls of men and we ought not be too proud of our economic system.
You believe this is God's plan and He's making it play out? I never viewed it that way, because God says in Genesis 1:26 that He gives mankind dominion/sovereign rule over the earth and everything on it (including ourselves). For Him to interfere without our asking Him to do so is against our free will. What God was doing by giving us prophecy was showing us what the WORLD would do from Old Testament days to the return of Jesus Christ. He was not showing what HE wanted to do. God does not go around exacting punishment on everyone around the world. Satan does that. The way I look at this is like so: Jesus said the world would hate us on account of Him. And the disciples went on missions and Paul and others were brutally attacked for their belief in Christ. Missionaries today are still attacked for their belief in Christ. America is the only nation that built it's costitution heavily depending on the law of the Old Testament and Judeo-Christian values. I'm reading a book called The 5,000 Year Leap that takes you through everything that happened when our founders built our constitution and how they came to their decisions and why they did it the way they did it. And you would not believe how much God is discussed and implimented in the structure. They talk about how they believe in Nature's Laws and the Laws of the God of Nature, the Creator. Because we are a Christian nation, and because we protect Israel and we are the only thing standing in the way of the Muslims destroying Israel, they attacked us. It is required by the Koran to kill the infidels if they will not convert, and the Jews and Christians are specifically talked about there. We were attacked for exactly the reason missionaries are attacked and killed in other countries, especially Muslim countries: because of our belief on Christ. Nothing more.
If your theory were true that a nation who is in obedience to God would not be judged by God by way of attack from a Muslim nation, then we'd have to apply that to Christians as well and say that a Christian who is in obedience to God could not have a Muslim come and kill him for preaching the Gospel on the missions field. Since when did we get this idea that if we're "good little Christians," nothing bad will happen to us? And how did that extend to a national level? I never understood that. The US is hated by the rest of the world. Gee, I wonder why? I think that's clear fulfillment of what Jesus said about the world hating us for loving Him. That's just my opinion, though. Everyone's free to interpret 9/11 however they like.
quote:
As to your quoting Rev 18:4, might not you consider the audience may be intended for others (i.e. Jews). We must come out of the world, but I don't think our physical locality has any impact upon Jesus' ability to pick us up on the Day of the Lord. However, with the Jews, they must be in Israel for any chance to escape and join the Remnant which will survive the one 'seven.'
If you are correct and God is telling the Jews to come out of "her" in Revelation 18:4, then God is like the worst strategist ever. LOL Because why would God have all of the Old Testament to tell that to the Jews, and then blind them to Jesus so they'll reject the New Testament, then warn the Jews in the New Testmant, fully knowing the Jews aren't going to read or believe in it? LOL
No, the Old Testament prophecies were written by Jews, about the Jews, and for the Jews. The New Testament prophecies were written by Christians, about the Christians, and for the Christians. And that's the best strategy I can think of if you're God and you want to inform your people. You inform them in the book you know they'll be reading. lol Make sense?
And since I don't buy into the 70th week being a single seven years in the future, I won't comment on the "one seven." I don't quite know what you're implying there anyway, exactly, so I can't really comment on it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/30/2008 9:40:27 PM
|
|
|
Sinner-Saint
Posts: 336
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
And since I don't buy into the 70th week being a single seven years in the future, I won't comment on the "one seven." I don't quite know what you're implying there anyway, exactly, so I can't really comment on it.
And so I can't really talk to you. We're not even on the same playing field, much the same page as to which play to call.
If you want to say everything is in the past, or that the King of the North was even in Daniel's past - then I think your eschatology and your interpretation of end-time prophecy is quite off the mark.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/30/2008 9:46:54 PM
|
|
|
Sinner-Saint
Posts: 336
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
So many words.....so little truth. And some Muslims even got the Doctrine about the anti al-Mahdi correct, what happened to you?
The "ruler who will come" comes from the people who destroyed the Temple.
That was future prophecy uttered by Gabriel and written by Daniel which was fulfilled nearly 40 years after Jesus' crucifixion, death resurrection and ascension. (So much for criticism of the Book of Daniel as not being truly prophetic, i.e. the notion it was written after the fact of the Grecian Kingdom wars...)
Since the Romans destroyed the city and the Sanctuary, the future anti-Christ will be essentially Roman in nature. Furthermore, I think the final fourth beast of Daniel 7 is a conglomeration of the previous three unified in one body with a command superstructure over it which is eventually taken over by this little horn or that a beast of a man who will be the anti-Christ.
America is one of those beasts. We will be part of the last great Roman Empire. Funny how we have three (Roman) Senators vying for the Presidency right now isn't it?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/30/2008 9:54:54 PM
|
|
|
Sinner-Saint
Posts: 336
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I am just trying to keep up here. The Ot is NOT for Christians, the NT is NOT for Jews? Was'nt Paul a writer of some of NT a JEW and Christian?
I'm with you Tracy.
Jesus has a heart for the Jews. He was sent for the lost sheep of Israel. As God, I think Jesus has had quite a part to play in bring Israel forth as a nation. I count Yeshua (Jesus) as being Yahweh who was with Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Gideon, Daniel and others.
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus laments "let those who are in Judea flee..." It is not Christians who live in Judea in the end-times but Jews.
The same God says in Revelation as Jesus reveals to John that "my people" come out of her (the figurative Babylon of the end-times ~ America).
This is the same God who described Israel to Ezekiel as a woman He loved (Eze 16).
God has a heart for the Jews. He picked them. We should not scoff at them too much, for if God will cast them out for their unbelief, what would He do to us who are not part of the natural tree of Israel is we do not continue in our belief?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 4/30/2008 10:17:15 PM
|
|
|
tracydolls
Posts: 653
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
|
quote:
The same God says in Revelation as Jesus reveals to John that "my people" come out of her (the figurative Babylon of the end-times ~ America).
Ok someone else believes America is Babylon?
I look at it in 3D, we are the "spiritual"Babylon,
we control the
'physical " Babylon
We are like previous Babylons: Big empires.
do you think we are close to the end-times?
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 5/1/2008 6:36:28 AM
|
|
|
Sinner-Saint
Posts: 336
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Ok someone else believes America is Babylon?
In a parallel sense yes. I certainly think you can draw parallels between the parts of Nebuchadnezzar's statue and the four beasts of Daniel 7 ~ but they are not the same!
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
do you think we are close to the end-times?
Yes.
We can see evidence that the spirits that are the first four horsemen are present in the world today. I do not limit the Seals to being opened only in the one 'seven.' Furthermore, nothing in the Seal account of Revelation 4-11 dictates the Seals can only be opened in the one 'seven.' Indeed, I think the first Seal was opened a couple of centuries ago and was itself responsible for the hallmark event which propels our present end-times: the Industrial Revolution.
I think the third beast has just been formed: the four-headed leopard. I think this animal is the EU. Like ancient Greece, it is a kingdom which is pulled in different directions by its major players within it: England, France and Germany. (The first head being the capital.)
The three major beasts (America, Russia and the EU) are actively involved in bringing about the coveted Middle East peace accord. The vehicle they are using to do this is called the Roadmap. You should look up the Annapolis Conference the Bush administration hosted last fall in November. They have assembled a multitude of nations which satisfies the requirement that Israel make an agreement with many. This is new.
Israel seeks to rebuild the Temple. Meanwhile, the white-washed walls mentioned in end-time prophecy are being constructed! Furthermore, Israel has found a red heifer and she actively is seeking the Ark of the Covenant. I think it has already been found (Wyatt), and the authorities in Israel are delaying its discovery by the rest of the world until the time is right.
In all this, God is in control and He is timing the events.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 5/1/2008 4:58:06 PM
|
|
|
Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
No, the Old Testament prophecies were written by Jews, about the Jews, and for the Jews. The New Testament prophecies were written by Christians, about the Christians, and for the Christians.
I am just trying to keep up here. The Ot is NOT for Christians, the NT is NOT for Jews? Was'nt Paul a writer of some of NT a JEW and Christian?
I said the New Testament prophecies are for the Christians, not the Jews. And the Old Testament prophecies are for the Jews and about the Jews. Of course the Old Testament itself is for the Christians and Jews. The New Testament would be great for the Jews, but they won't read it or believe in it. I was strictly talking about the prophecies. And when I say that someone's a Jew, I don't mean in race. I mean in religion. Their race is Israeli or Hebrew. Their religion is Judaism. But, Jews can be called Jews from a race standpoint too, because they are from the tribe of Judah, I suppose. But really, they're Israeli to be more accurate. I'm speaking of religion, not race here. Paul was an Israeli Christian. He was a Jew originally, by religion and from the tribe of Judah by race, but was a Christian by his religion. None of that's important anyway, because I was talking about prophecy, not the entire New or entire Old Testaments.
_____________________________
- Brian
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 5/2/2008 9:10:57 PM
|
|
|
tracydolls
Posts: 653
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
|
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
quote:
He was a Jew originally, by religion and from the tribe of Judah by race, but was a Christian by his religion .
The Bible is for us all. all of it. who but G-D knows who Jews are.
A south african tribe tested Jewish.
WE america are Babylon in the prophesy books.
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: America In Prophecy - 5/2/2008 9:13:39 PM
|
|
|
tracydolls
Posts: 653
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
|
| |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
