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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/9/2008 4:18:25 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Thanks for correcting me there. I should've checks to see if it was Benjamin or Judah from which Paul came. I generalized by saying Paul was from the tribe of Judah, because Benjamin and Judah were lumped together as the two southern tribes and together they were called Judah, just like the 10 northern tribes were called Ephraim, even though they all had individual tribe names. They always called the conglomeration of tribes (the 10 tribes or the 2 tribes) by the name of the strongest tribe. Judah was the strongest of the two southern tribes. Ephraim was the strongest of the ten northern tribes; and so they were named by those names. Thanks for correcting my technical mistake.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
He was a Jew originally, by religion and from the tribe of Judah by race, but was a Christian by his religion .
The Bible is for us all. all of it. who but G-D knows who Jews are.
A south african tribe tested Jewish.
The South African tribe, among many other African tribes, tested Jewish, because they came from the dispersion of either the northern 10 tribes in 724 BC or the dispersion of the Jews (souther 2 tribes) in 688 AD. Dispertion meaning, that is the time at which they were dispersed into the world because they were ousted from their lands (by Asyrria in 724 BC and by Islam in 688 AD). That's when they spread out all over the world, and that's how they got to Africa, to the Caucus mountains, all over Europe, to the U.S. eventually, to Russia as well, etc., etc..
You said all of the Bible is for all of us. I agree. But just because the prophecies can teach us stuff doesn't mean that all of the prophecies are ABOUT us.
You'll notice something very important about the prophecies that most people seem to overlook. The prophecy is being given to THAT prophet, at THAT time period, and the central fixed time point is in the time of that prophet.
So, when it says 5 kings have come, one is now, and one is yet to come... It means that God is telling that prophet (John, in this case) that in HIS time period, 5 kings have come, one IS (is existing and ruling in John's time period) and one is yet to come in the future, after this king.
A lot of people read that and try to figure out which king IS right now, or when they reach this "end time" who that king that IS will be at that time? But God told that to JOHN, and so it centers around John's time, and then tells the future AFTER John's time. Meaning that we must always keep in mind that these prophecies were given to those people at that time for some purpose, and the prophecies always extend from the time they were given TO the end.
Hosea was the prophet of the 10 northern tribes, and he told them what was going to happen to them soon, and all the way up to the end when Jesus returned. And sure enough, right after he gave them their prophecy, they were taken into captivity by Assyria in 724 BC and dispersed into the world and never heard from again.
Daniel was the prophet for the Jews (2 southern tribes), and he prophesies to them about what's going to happen to them from HIS time to the return of Jesus.
John was a Christian and the Father, through Jesus, gave John His revelation of what would happen from the time of Jesus' crucifiction to the time Jesus returns.
So you see this trend of each prophet being for each group of God's people, and telling about events all the way from the time period they were in and to the end when Messiah returns.
If you can get that understanding in your head, you realize why God is making statements to John that say, "five kings have come, one IS, and one is to come..." That's a time dependent prophecy, and it's being told TO John. John understood what it meant, and it was for his time when the present was spoken of in context. "ONE IS," in context, is speaking of the time at which John lived. That's why the empires back then always line up with the beasts spoken of, like Daniel. Sometimes, you have to build on one prophet's prophecies to figure out the next prophet's prophecies. So you see Daniel's prophecies, and you can use some of those to figure out the later prophecies given to John, for the Christians and about the Christians and their time period till the end. I hope this makes some sense.
Oh, and I was wrong on mystery babylon. I'll try to remember and make a good case for it later. I figured out how we prove that Babylon in Revelation 17-18 is simply the people that went against God. Apparently, if you prove in Revelation that the New Jerusalem represents the believers, and babylon is the non-believers or apostates, then you realize that it makes sense. And there's a way to prove it at the end of Rev 18, because it talks about it being EVERY man that's ever died, which would include all men for all time. I'll try to explain it later.
So, I admit I was wrong on that now that I've been set straight by the author of the book I read about this subject. I just spent a few hours on the phone with him and he showed me how to prove some important things that make sense in this arena and that definitely define who mystery babylon and the new Jerusalem are. I apologize for my false doctrine and calling it the Vatican and Rome (Holy Roman Empire). My mistake. My misunderstanding. I'll do my best not to make mistakes like that anymore.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/9/2008 4:43:53 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Every kingdom in the world destroyed From Egypt , Romans, Greeks, Europe, etc. but America gets off with her 200+ years of slavery, killing of the Natives, the commerce, hoarding all the money, etc.
Here's a history of our country and slavery in it, just for the record:
Our country started being ruled by us on July 4th, 1776 (but before was ruled by a slave owning Britain, which is why we had slaves here in the first place... had we not started that way, the Founding Fathers said they would've never allowed slavery, because it contradicted the natural law upon which the constitution was built by not making blacks free). We came from a background of England and other places as well, where slavery was normal. But, when you read about the Founding Fathers, you find that none of them really thought slavery was right, even though some had slaves. Benjamin Franklin made this statement: "It is like holding a wolf by the ears: you dare not kill him, but you dare not let him go." If you read the paper that was in, you see that what he was saying was that because the economy of the south was built on slaves, if they were to just let the slaves go immediately, it could have major repercussions on the economy and cause the nation to collapse. But, if we do it properly over a short time, long enough to adapt our economy, we can do it more successfully and stably without bringing collapse. All the founding fathers were conflicted over slavery and thought it was not right, because they were all deep believers in natural law.
So, in 1808, we abolished slavery. Slavery was LEGAL for only 32 years. Other cultures around the world had slavery for thousands of years, and we came out of those cultures and managed to outlaw slavery in only 32 years! That's how adiment our founding fathers were about getting the job done right. And some of them held onto their slaves till the day they died, then released them... but that was before the law was passed. George Washington died in 1799, and gave his slaves freedom right before he died, but 9 years before the law freed them.
The South, due to their economy being built with slavery included in it, did not want to give up their slaves after the law was passed. So, they held onto it. The North kept trying to comprimise with them. What happened was that the South wanted representation in congress, and they wanted to count their slaves in their numbers as well so they would have a bigger "say" in things in the country. Because the North was against slavery, they would not let the South count their slaves in their numbers, so what happened is that the North had MORE representation in Congress. In other words, they chose to use not countain slaves as people in order to cause lack of representation in order to cause the South to say, "Ok, fine, we'll give up our slaves in exchange for proper representation in Congress." But that's not what happened. So, the people in government AGAINST slavery chose to try to comprimise with the slave owning South, but again, to discourage them with penalties. So, they said, "Ok, fine, you can count your slaves, but only 3/5th is what you can count toward representation..." For representation sake in Congress ONLY were slaves counted as 3/5th of a person. And this was an attempt to DISCOURAGE the southern states against slavery. It had nothing to do with the value of the person. It had everything to do with the abolitionists wanting to free the slaves. They were saying this: "If you will free your slaves, you can count all of them as free, equal men, as we see them, and then you can get all of your representation in Congress. If you don't, then you'll not be represented in this country very well and things won't go your way." It didn't work...
So civil war broke out between North and South. After it was over, the South lost and gave up their slaves. However, for the next many, many years after that, the spirit of racism was still present, because many people still counted the blacks as lesser than them. Then, evolution came along, and people used evolution to fuel "Eugenics" belief, which is that if we exterminate the lesser of the races, the super-race will emerge and we'll be "helping" evolution along. Absurdity! They deemed the people of lesser intelligence or that didn't properly contribute to the nation as lesser people and a problem to the advancement of mankind. In California, in the early 1900s, they were sterilizing people they deemed "lesser" so they couldn't procreate and "corrupt" the population. This went on for a while. Over 50,000 people were sterilized. Then, Hilter came along and blew everything WAY out of proportion. He ended up exterminating people, and this caused everyone to flee from Eugentics and see the error of their ways. Some did not flee from it as much as others.
Over time, as PEOPLE in this country started to get used to the idea that blacks were not lesser, they were finally coming out of this spirit of racism and not thinking of blacks as lesser than them. Now, we've reached a point that not only are blacks accepted and integrated into society, but they do very well for themselves and we have many rappers and sports stars and CEOs that are looked up to which are black American. So, once we defeated this spirit of racism, blacks were able to integrate into society here more fully. I think if we just stopped talking about racism in order to keep it out of the forefront of the news, we would end up forgetting about it eventually. Blacks had a hard road to come up from. They had to overcome very hard obsticles such as slavery, and then the spirit of slavery after they were freed, and the hate from other people, etc. But they have now overcome that, and the other races in the country have overcome their biases against them. Now we can all live peacefully.
That is the true history of slavery in America. And if you compare that with other countries around the world, you'll find that most cultures had slavery for their entire existence or for thousands of years or much of their existence. To use that as a reason to hate America or call her evil is to simply be LOOKING for a reason to demonize her. America has actually done more for freedom than any culture in history, and freedom has spread throughout the world since our inception, because people modelled their governments on some of our principles by giving more power to the people, and they've been very successful for it.
So, do you still believe we are evil for eliminating slavery so quickly, and nearly eliminating racism over a couple hundred years?
< Message edited by Cephyr13 -- 5/9/2008 5:06:20 PM >
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/9/2008 6:21:01 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 658
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
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quote:
So, I admit I was wrong on that now that I've been set straight by the author of the book I read about this subject. I just spent a few hours on the phone with him and he showed me how to prove some important things that make sense in this arena and that definitely define who mystery babylon and the new Jerusalem are. I apologize for my false doctrine and calling it the Vatican and Rome (Holy Roman Empire). My mistake. My misunderstanding. I'll do my best not to make mistakes like that anymore.
Cep,
When you figure out how not to make mistakes, please call me ASAP my number is 612-715-4565. Just ask for Tracy.
I too just found out something I read into Babylon was wrong! So don't feel like it's just you, that's why it is good to study, find out.
As for the part of slavery, My point could've been smashed.. America paid , the Civil War. More than 600,000 died, more than all our wars together, I believe. I have been wrong 100000000's times before, the hard part is saying I was wrong.
Love in the Lord
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/9/2008 11:56:54 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 205
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
So, I admit I was wrong on that now that I've been set straight by the author of the book I read about this subject. I just spent a few hours on the phone with him and he showed me how to prove some important things that make sense in this arena and that definitely define who mystery babylon and the new Jerusalem are. I apologize for my false doctrine and calling it the Vatican and Rome (Holy Roman Empire). My mistake. My misunderstanding. I'll do my best not to make mistakes like that anymore.
Cep,
When you figure out how not to make mistakes, please call me ASAP my number is 612-715-4565. Just ask for Tracy.
I too just found out something I read into Babylon was wrong! So don't feel like it's just you, that's why it is good to study, find out.
As for the part of slavery, My point could've been smashed.. America paid , the Civil War. More than 600,000 died, more than all our wars together, I believe. I have been wrong 100000000's times before, the hard part is saying I was wrong.
Love in the Lord
Shabbat shalom, tracydolls.
Careful giving out sensitive info. It's not very professional and it's not prudent.
You folks ... ALL of you, not just tracydolls ... speak in far too many vague generalities and broad, sweeping universalisms! The Bible does NOT lend itself to such interpretation. Much that has been said to affect the WHOLE EARTH, for instance, is often just talking about the whole LAND, ha`Erets Yisra'el, the Land of Isra'el! Just as the English word "earth" can mean the dirt in a person's hand, the dirt of a person's field, the ground, so in Greek (gee) and in Hebrew (`erets) do not have to refer to the whole globe!
Another problem I can see from your discussions is that the person you call the "Antichrist" or "AC" for short, should really be called just the "beast" or the "animal." He is not called the "Antichrist" in Scripture. The SPIRIT or ATTITUDE of "antichrist" is that attitude that is "against the Messiah of Isra'el." Furthermore, that attitude has been around since the first century C.E. (or A.D.) and has been prevalent in the world for about 2000 years!
America is not Babylon of prophecy; BABYLON is the Babylon of prophecy! Oh, and sorry Midwest, but this goes back to the broad generalization problem again: Babylon is NOT the whole sinful system! What you REALLY need in your biblical interpretation is to know that "ALL" in specific contexts may still refer to only SOME in a global perspective.
When you said in post #176:
"LOL I see you are still using guesswork theology to justify calling America Babylon. Nothing in any of your statements shows how Rev18:24 has been fulfilled by America.
Rev. 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Show me how America has the blood of Cain or Stephen who was stoned in the first century or how America has the blood of all those slain by the muslims in her then maybe we have something to talk about until then all I see is a Scripturally bankrupt theory based on guesswork theology.
Babylon can not be limited to a single city, continent, or religion, nor can it be can be constrained by time. America may be a part of Babylon but not Babylon in its entirety.JMHO, I believe that Babylon, then, represents the often murderous, material greed driven nature of mankind, personal and government etc., trapped by the things of this world, Satan's stuff, to the person's personal condemnation, throughout the entire history of mankind. (it has to be the entire history of mankind or you will only find part of the blood of all that were slain, not the blood of all) "
you were being so deceived. CONTEXT!!!! Revelation 18:24 is one such case where "tees gees" may not be referring to the whole globe, but is talking about "the Land!" Don't be too quick to apply local truths to a global generality.
Retrobyter
_____________________________
God will never abolish His Torah; He merely sent His Son to COMPLETE it so we aren't FORCED to keep it! (It's still a good idea, however.)
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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/10/2008 12:19:20 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1620
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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You could very well be right Retorobyter... Babylon is the world that Satan controls. He is in control of it today and will be more so tomorrow. I believe his center of control or center of power will be Jerusalem.
What he doesn't control are those who belong to Christ, we belong to His Kingdom.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/10/2008 12:45:19 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 658
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
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retro,
Here is where I was wrong, I think I went and asked a person, their opinion of America being Babylon , she told me America sits as the throne of this Babylonian system. We are all guilty. Each and every country, but as the richest we are rulers of the system.
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/10/2008 10:12:36 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 336
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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In the end, the anti-Christ will succeed in conquering all the earth, but at that pivotal battle Jesus and His Army (the 144,000 in my opinion) obliterate his forces and they capture him and the False Prophet alive, judge them, and throw them both alive into the Lake of Fire.
However, the domination the fourth final beast acheives is a process.
America's domination in the world will be incorporated into the fourth final beast when we join forces with Russia and the EU in a super-federated state which will be necessary to wage war on radical Islam, which I think is the Southern Kingdom.
Remember: the four beasts cannot be the same as the Kingdoms of Nebuchadnezzar's statue because in Daniel 7:12 the first three survive the destruction of the fourth.
Secondly: the final beast is not ten nations but has a ruling council of ten ministers who become as Kings for one hour. The ten do not come with nations under them.
Thirdly: the final beast is composed of the first three beasts as delinated by Jesus to John in Revelation 13:2.
Why is it that you people can't put these facts of Bible prophecy together and fit them to the world around us?
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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/10/2008 10:43:37 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
So, I admit I was wrong on that now that I've been set straight by the author of the book I read about this subject. I just spent a few hours on the phone with him and he showed me how to prove some important things that make sense in this arena and that definitely define who mystery babylon and the new Jerusalem are. I apologize for my false doctrine and calling it the Vatican and Rome (Holy Roman Empire). My mistake. My misunderstanding. I'll do my best not to make mistakes like that anymore.
Cep,
When you figure out how not to make mistakes, please call me ASAP my number is 612-715-4565. Just ask for Tracy.
I too just found out something I read into Babylon was wrong! So don't feel like it's just you, that's why it is good to study, find out.
As for the part of slavery, My point could've been smashed.. America paid , the Civil War. More than 600,000 died, more than all our wars together, I believe. I have been wrong 100000000's times before, the hard part is saying I was wrong.
Love in the Lord
I've found that I learn the most when I make mistakes, so I enjoy my mistakes that teach me good lessons or correct my errors. I love when people disprove one of my beleifs, so I can find the truth. My love is for truth, so when I say, "I was wrong," to someone, what I'm saying is, "Thank you for showing me that I need to keep searching for the truth in that area, and thank you for showing me something that was incorrect so I don't spread false doctrine or incorrect data to others. I don't want that sin on me and I'm always thankful to admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. I actually asked God yesterday to not ever let me teach anything incorrect anymore. So I'm going to get even more critical with what I teach and learn from here on out and make sure I can prove it 100%. It helps me to know that finding wrong in me produces a search for right/truth. And so I find joy in mistakes now, because my only goal is the truth. That new outlook for me made it so easy to say, "I'm sorry, I was wrong." I'm more than happy to say it now when I see that I'm wrong. I totally encourage people to disprove what I believe now, so that if they successfully do disprove some things, I can say, "Thank you so much for showing me I was in false doctrine. I never want to spread false docrtine."
I learned this prophetic view a year ago, and I still find that I have some of my old prophetic views accidentally mixed in with this view. My 8 yr old view compared to 1 yr old view... kind of hard to forget all the old view and start fresh. lol I was only able to bring over like 2 or 3 things from the old view that fit and are correct in the new view. Get's confusing. So again, I'm sorry I messed up the Babylon thing. My mistake. I discovered some very cool stuff by learning more about my own view in regard to Babylon and New Jerusalem, though. I'll share it later.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/10/2008 11:42:13 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 658
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: online
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quote:
because my only goal is the truth.
As long as that is your goal, G-D will give you knowledge freely. Don't be so hard on yourself, we will all go to our graves, not knowing everything in the Bible. I too am a different person in my walk with the Lord, from how I was even a year ago. LOL. It is a work in progress.
Nobody is perfect.
If you do become perfect, like I said call me, I wanna see it with my own eyes! LOL
_____________________________
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/10/2008 2:41:06 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shabbat shalom, tracydolls.
You folks ... ALL of you, not just tracydolls ... speak in far too many vague generalities and broad, sweeping universalisms! The Bible does NOT lend itself to such interpretation. Much that has been said to affect the WHOLE EARTH, for instance, is often just talking about the whole LAND, ha`Erets Yisra'el, the Land of Isra'el! Just as the English word "earth" can mean the dirt in a person's hand, the dirt of a person's field, the ground, so in Greek (gee) and in Hebrew (`erets) do not have to refer to the whole globe!
You are correct that when a prophet says "world," usually, it means the world known to him. The prophets knew almost nothing of China, nothing of the Americas... much was not known about the world in those days, and so, "the world" is usually pertaining to the world known to the prophet, unless it is otherwise specified by context. Lots of people make this mistake. It goes back to the rule that prophecy is given TO the prophet and should be understood FROM the prophet's time period, and should not automatically be repositioned into OUR time period.
I don't agree with your vague generalities statement. There are intricate things, and there are generalities. You're using a vague generality by accusing us of vague generalities without specifying what they are. lol :) If you'll reveal which vague generatlities you see us using, we'll explain them. Thanks.
quote:
Another problem I can see from your discussions is that the person you call the "Antichrist" or "AC" for short, should really be called just the "beast" or the "animal." He is not called the "Antichrist" in Scripture. The SPIRIT or ATTITUDE of "antichrist" is that attitude that is "against the Messiah of Isra'el." Furthermore, that attitude has been around since the first century C.E. (or A.D.) and has been prevalent in the world for about 2000 years!
I completely agree. AntiChrist isn't mentioned anywhere in prophecy. Only in 1st, 2nd & 3rd John, which are not prophetic in nature, and it is something that's been around since Christ, just like John said it was present in those times.
The beast is usually nations controlled by Satan, and we know this from Rev 13 which talks about the dragon, who is called Satan, controlling the beast(s).
quote:
America is not Babylon of prophecy; BABYLON is the Babylon of prophecy! Oh, and sorry Midwest, but this goes back to the broad generalization problem again: Babylon is NOT the whole sinful system! What you REALLY need in your biblical interpretation is to know that "ALL" in specific contexts may still refer to only SOME in a global perspective.
I disagree Babylon is the real city of Babylon. Why would it be called "Mystery Babylon" if it were so obviously Babylon? LOL HOWEVER, I do think the seat of power of the beast, or Babylon, is the Middle East, which is where Babylon is. But, I think the entire world can be grouped into two categories in prophecy. Chapters 17 & 18 in Revelation are all about Mystery Babylon, and this is conveyed as the harlot riding on the beast. Let's see what it says about Mystery Babylon at the end of Chapter 18:
Rev 18:23-24
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
So, this one verse shows that Mystery Babylon is something that spanned ALL generations, because ALL the slain on earth are included in her. We've established that this is not one nation or many nations, but all nations for all time, because it includes EVERYONE that has EVER died on earth.
Now, let's look at what kind of people are being defined in these two verses to see if we can figure out who is being spoken of here. It says "the light of the candle" shall shine no more. John 1 says the light is the life of men and comes from Jesus. Paul says we are to be a light unto the world, like a candle in the dark. There's your candle, and it shines no more. John says the darkness does not understand the light (Genesis 1 says something about it too). So the life of men will no longer be found in Babylon (on the earth). This must be after the rapture, which in my opinion, is at the end, on the last day. It says the Bridegroom's and the bride's voice will not longer be heard in babylon anymore. In other words, Jesus and His people will NEVER again be a part of this earth and the people of this earthly kingdom of babylon. Or "worldly" I should say. It says that ALL nations were deceived. So this is speaking of the separating of sinful man who are spiritually in Satan's kingdom, from righteous men who are in Jesus' kingdom in heaven (the spiritual world, so again, this is spiritual).
Then, you look at chapter 19 which continues and says that the beast (the one the harlot is riding) is judged. The whole chapter is about that. It ends with the beast and the people that worshipped his image and took his mark being thrown into the lake of fire with satan and the false prophet forever. So, we got a definition of who Mystery Babylon was, and that the bridegroom (Jesus) and His bride (the church) would come out of her in chapters 17-18. In 19 we saw the judgement of Mystery Babylon. In Chapter 20, we a broad overview of the sinful (babylon) and the holy (New Jerusalem, the Bride) and what happens to them. Then, in Chapter 21, we see the Bride is called New Jerusalem.
Notice, Babylon is a city, and New Jerusalem is a city. Babylon (a city) is symbolic of the world of sinful man and Satan's kingdom which is of this world. Then, New Jerusalem (a city) is symbolic of Jesus' kingdom and the Church, saved by God. Makes quite a bit of sense, doesn't it? Chapters 17-22 are all about the spiritual side and what's happening in the spiritual world and the final judgements, stuff like that. Read through 17-22 with the things I just told you in mind and see if it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Remove all of your prophetic views and just read with what I told you and assume there is no pretrib rapture, but rather, that it is on the last day. Don't bother figuring out the millennial kindgom when you read through them this time. Just set that aside simply so it doesn't complicate things. Let me know if what I told you doesn't make it all make much more sense. And remember... if God never changes, He's going to use the same symbols throughout prophecy and the Bible. Just like waters means peoples, and the candle means the light of Jesus and the light unto the world which we are... All of that stuff. If we properly identify all the symbols and pay close attention to what's being stated, we can figure out what everything is.
Here's how we know New Jerusalem is the church:
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
This is right after the rapture, on the last day, when God makes the new earth, or makes the earth NEW again, like in the beginning, when it was perfectly made. Is this picture of symbols making sense? Notice I didn't ask if it made sense with YOUR view of prophecy. Just, does it make sense in my view of prophecy so far, without inserting anything from other prophetic views in?
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Babylon can not be limited to a single city, continent, or religion, nor can it be can be constrained by time. America may be a part of Babylon but not Babylon in its entirety.JMHO, I believe that Babylon, then, represents the often murderous, material greed driven nature of mankind, personal and government etc., trapped by the things of this world, Satan's stuff, to the person's personal condemnation, throughout the entire history of mankind. (it has to be the entire history of mankind or you will only find part of the blood of all that were slain, not the blood of all) "
you were being so deceived. CONTEXT!!!! Revelation 18:24 is one such case where "tees gees" may not be referring to the whole globe, but is talking about "the Land!" Don't be too quick to apply local truths to a global generality.
Retrobyter
As I showed up above, Retrobyter, we found that the city called "new Jerusalem" was the symbol of God's people for all time, the saved. And I showed how Babylon is the symbol for those not of God, the ones that rejected Him for all time. Have I not stayed right in context? Please let me know how I got out of context and I'll sure look into it. If I'm wrong, I want to know I'm wrong so I can fix my view. Where does what I talked about above not make sense in context?
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- Brian
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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/10/2008 6:09:26 PM
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Posts: 1351
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It is written: (paraphrase) No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophets own will or interpretation. The prophets prophesied as they were carried along by The Holy Spirit of God who stands outside of time and is timeless. Therefore, prophecy cannot be interpreted only within the prophets own time period that he was Sovereignly ordained, by God, to be in ahead of time.
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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shabbat shalom, tracydolls.
You folks ... ALL of you, not just tracydolls ... speak in far too many vague generalities and broad, sweeping universalisms! The Bible does NOT lend itself to such interpretation. Much that has been said to affect the WHOLE EARTH, for instance, is often just talking about the whole LAND, ha`Erets Yisra'el, the Land of Isra'el! Just as the English word "earth" can mean the dirt in a person's hand, the dirt of a person's field, the ground, so in Greek (gee) and in Hebrew (`erets) do not have to refer to the whole globe!
You are correct that when a prophet says "world," usually, it means the world known to him. The prophets knew almost nothing of China, nothing of the Americas... much was not known about the world in those days, and so, "the world" is usually pertaining to the world known to the prophet, unless it is otherwise specified by context. Lots of people make this mistake. It goes back to the rule that prophecy is given TO the prophet and should be understood FROM the prophet's time period, and should not automatically be repositioned into OUR time period.
I don't agree with your vague generalities statement. There are intricate things, and there are generalities. You're using a vague generality by accusing us of vague generalities without specifying what they are. lol :) If you'll reveal which vague generatlities you see us using, we'll explain them. Thanks.
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Another problem I can see from your discussions is that the person you call the "Antichrist" or "AC" for short, should really be called just the "beast" or the "animal." He is not called the "Antichrist" in Scripture. The SPIRIT or ATTITUDE of "antichrist" is that attitude that is "against the Messiah of Isra'el." Furthermore, that attitude has been around since the first century C.E. (or A.D.) and has been prevalent in the world for about 2000 years!
I completely agree. AntiChrist isn't mentioned anywhere in prophecy. Only in 1st, 2nd & 3rd John, which are not prophetic in nature, and it is something that's been around since Christ, just like John said it was present in those times.
The beast is usually nations controlled by Satan, and we know this from Rev 13 which talks about the dragon, who is called Satan, controlling the beast(s).
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America is not Babylon of prophecy; BABYLON is the Babylon of prophecy! Oh, and sorry Midwest, but this goes back to the broad generalization problem again: Babylon is NOT the whole sinful system! What you REALLY need in your biblical interpretation is to know that "ALL" in specific contexts may still refer to only SOME in a global perspective.
I disagree Babylon is the real city of Babylon. Why would it be called "Mystery Babylon" if it were so obviously Babylon? LOL HOWEVER, I do think the seat of power of the beast, or Babylon, is the Middle East, which is where Babylon is. But, I think the entire world can be grouped into two categories in prophecy. Chapters 17 & 18 in Revelation are all about Mystery Babylon, and this is conveyed as the harlot riding on the beast. Let's see what it says about Mystery Babylon at the end of Chapter 18:
Rev 18:23-24
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
So, this one verse shows that Mystery Babylon is something that spanned ALL generations, because ALL the slain on earth are included in her. We've established that this is not one nation or many nations, but all nations for all time, because it includes EVERYONE that has EVER died on earth.
Now, let's look at what kind of people are being defined in these two verses to see if we can figure out who is being spoken of here. It says "the light of the candle" shall shine no more. John 1 says the light is the life of men and comes from Jesus. Paul says we are to be a light unto the world, like a candle in the dark. There's your candle, and it shines no more. John says the darkness does not understand the light (Genesis 1 says something about it too). So the life of men will no longer be found in Babylon (on the earth). This must be after the rapture, which in my opinion, is at the end, on the last day. It says the Bridegroom's and the bride's voice will not longer be heard in babylon anymore. In other words, Jesus and His people will NEVER again be a part of this earth and the people of this earthly kingdom of babylon. Or "worldly" I should say. It says that ALL nations were deceived. So this is speaking of the separating of sinful man who are spiritually in Satan's kingdom, from righteous men who are in Jesus' kingdom in heaven (the spiritual world, so again, this is spiritual).
Then, you look at chapter 19 which continues and says that the beast (the one the harlot is riding) is judged. The whole chapter is about that. It ends with the beast and the people that worshipped his image and took his mark being thrown into the lake of fire with satan and the false prophet forever. So, we got a definition of who Mystery Babylon was, and that the bridegroom (Jesus) and His bride (the church) would come out of her in chapters 17-18. In 19 we saw the judgement of Mystery Babylon. In Chapter 20, we a broad overview of the sinful (babylon) and the holy (New Jerusalem, the Bride) and what happens to them. Then, in Chapter 21, we see the Bride is called New Jerusalem.
Notice, Babylon is a city, and New Jerusalem is a city. Babylon (a city) is symbolic of the world of sinful man and Satan's kingdom which is of this world. Then, New Jerusalem (a city) is symbolic of Jesus' kingdom and the Church, saved by God. Makes quite a bit of sense, doesn't it? Chapters 17-22 are all about the spiritual side and what's happening in the spiritual world and the final judgements, stuff like that. Read through 17-22 with the things I just told you in mind and see if it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Remove all of your prophetic views and just read with what I told you and assume there is no pretrib rapture, but rather, that it is on the last day. Don't bother figuring out the millennial kindgom when you read through them this time. Just set that aside simply so it doesn't complicate things. Let me know if what I told you doesn't make it all make much more sense. And remember... if God never changes, He's going to use the same symbols throughout prophecy and the Bible. Just like waters means peoples, and the candle means the light of Jesus and the light unto the world which we are... All of that stuff. If we properly identify all the symbols and pay close attention to what's being stated, we can figure out what everything is.
Here's how we know New Jerusalem is the church:
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
This is right after the rapture, on the last day, when God makes the new earth, or makes the earth NEW again, like in the beginning, when it was perfectly made. Is this picture of symbols making sense? Notice I didn't ask if it made sense with YOUR view of prophecy. Just, does it make sense in my view of prophecy so far, without inserting anything from other prophetic views in?
quote:
Babylon can not be limited to a single city, continent, or religion, nor can it be can be constrained by time. America may be a part of Babylon but not Babylon in its entirety.JMHO, I believe that Babylon, then, represents the often murderous, material greed driven nature of mankind, personal and government etc., trapped by the things of this world, Satan's stuff, to the person's personal condemnation, throughout the entire history of mankind. (it has to be the entire history of mankind or you will only find part of the blood of all that were slain, not the blood of all) "
you were being so deceived. CONTEXT!!!! Revelation 18:24 is one such case where "tees gees" may not be referring to the whole globe, but is talking about "the Land!" Don't be too quick to apply local truths to a global generality.
Retrobyter
As I showed up above, Retrobyter, we found that the city called "new Jerusalem" was the symbol of God's people for all time, the saved. And I showed how Babylon is the symbol for those not of God, the ones that rejected Him for all time. Have I not stayed right in context? Please let me know how I got out of context and I'll sure look into it. If I'm wrong, I want to know I'm wrong so I can fix my view. Where does what I talked about above not make sense in context?
< Message edited by ..... -- 5/10/2008 6:19:03 PM >
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RE: America In Prophecy - 5/10/2008 6:27:35 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 371
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
It is written: (paraphrase) No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophets own will or interpretation. The prophets prophesied as they were carried along by The Holy Spirit of God who stands outside of time and is timeless. Therefore, prophecy cannot be interpreted only within the prophets own time period that he was Sovereignly ordained, by God, to be in ahead of time.
I never said the prophecy was to be interpreted as coming to pass ONLY in the prophet's time period. I said that we must basically place ourselves in the time period of each prophet, and read their book from their time period. Only then can we understand how it was being told to them so they could write it down.
When we see: "5 kingdoms were, one IS, and one is to come..." We know that God was telling that prophet that there were 5 kingdoms before him, there is a kingdom right now that's ruling, and there will be a kingdom that will rule after this one too. That's what I'm saying.
We should interpret prophecy from the time period of the prophet to the end of time when Jesus returns. Too many people place prophecies at the end time period right before Jesus returns to judge everyone. That is not what scripture teaches. Did you know that Darby came up with the seven year tribulation right after he fell off his horse, hit his head really badly, and was in bed recovering from it? LOL Never heard of a prophet having to get a concussion to figure out prophecy. LOL I just thought that was entertaining. He was a smart guy, but very wrong on prophecy though.
_____________________________
- Brian
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