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sunshinesoprano -> America In Prophecy (1/28/2008 12:59:22 PM)

Forgive me if there's already another thread on this and feel free to move it if there is.

I've heard many folks talk about America's role in prophecy. Ronald Weinland, for examples, states that America's demise will start in 08, our dollar will be worth nothing by April 08 (which might actually be true based on the current economic state), and that by the end of 08 the US will be history.

How does anyone make that sort of jump from cryptic prophecy to making a blatant, supposedly-factual claim about things like that?

I'd also like to hear anyone who has any ideas on America's place in prophecy.

Thanks.



WesP -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/28/2008 1:57:19 PM)

I don't give credit to his dates, but I do not see America as a "player" in the end. We will not rank as a powerhouse, but we will suffer along with the rest of the world.



cybrjewls -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/28/2008 2:46:20 PM)

Greetings! God almost never gives a date when He issues prophecy, except in regards to the date when the messiah enters Jerusalem and is cut off.
It is almost always a cultic teaching that follows the prophecy of specific dates.
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano

Forgive me if there's already another thread on this and feel free to move it if there is.

I've heard many folks talk about America's role in prophecy. Ronald Weinland, for examples, states that America's demise will start in 08, our dollar will be worth nothing by April 08 (which might actually be true based on the current economic state), and that by the end of 08 the US will be history.

How does anyone make that sort of jump from cryptic prophecy to making a blatant, supposedly-factual claim about things like that?

I'd also like to hear anyone who has any ideas on America's place in prophecy.

Thanks.



JimboFletch -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/28/2008 2:59:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
I've heard many folks talk about America's role in prophecy. Ronald Weinland, for examples, states that America's demise will start in 08, our dollar will be worth nothing by April 08 (which might actually be true based on the current economic state), and that by the end of 08 the US will be history.

My question is, when Mr. Weinland's predictions prove false, why will there still be people still trusting him for worthwhile advice? But history indicates there will. And more will be eagerly waiting for the next one to come along.

Anybody remember the Y2K scare? During the 12 months before 1/01/2000, I heard one evangelist admit that he had no idea how Y2K would affect us, if at all, but he did know who was in control and who would not be caught off guard when the calendar changed (GOD, of course). But few ever discusses all the failed, stupid predictions made by people without any special knowledge.

We can either trust God or we can't.

Personally, I do.

[Edited to change 2001 to 2000]
[sm=icon_smile_blush.gif]



Okami -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/28/2008 11:18:56 PM)

America is never really specified in the prophecies. For such a major powerhouse that affects a lot of the world, it seems a bit odd.

Some however had tried to tie it to the second Babylon. The way things are headed, that might not be too far from the truth (worship any god, idols, wickedness).
Then there is the mention about the demise of it since it was the center of much trade, and how the other nations mourned it being destroyed in an hour from its greatness.
Now, with that "natural gas caves" thing in which the entire US would be destroyed if some spot in texas is hit, expect to see the connections make more rounds.



bob97 -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/29/2008 10:59:07 AM)

Because the Bible is silent regarding the United States, no one knows what will happen so I don’t attempt to hypothesize.

I know that God is in control and what ever He allows to happen is my fate. God has blessed my life to this point and I have complete trust in His predetermined future for both myself and this country. If those plans include destruction and death…well I’m going to die anyway and the one thing that I have learned…“Life comes at you fast”. I’ll just continue to trust in the Lord.

The world is coming into a time of severe testing and in my judgment almost certainly sooner than any of us think.

For the record, I think God will continue to bless this country for the short term and although the evil is today more apparent, the spiritual heart of this Nation is today beating strong.

Bob



cybrjewls -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/29/2008 11:54:24 AM)

Greetings! Please notice what is written regarding the fourth empire animal in Daniel. It is also written: The beast from the sea with one head fatally wounded by Christs crucifixion who having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. We are to overcome this present world of dark fallen powers in the heavenly realms.

America has its place in prophecy as the beginnings of the fourth empire as written in Daniel that will eventually devour the whole earth. There is terrifying authority to make war in the technologies that have been developed like: nuclear warheads and computer technologies etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano

I'd also like to hear anyone who has any ideas on America's place in prophecy.

Thanks.



sunshinesoprano -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/29/2008 12:41:34 PM)

Okay, so just for my edification, prophetica, what is your information that substantiates the hypothesis that America is the fourth empire?



cybrjewls -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/29/2008 1:29:07 PM)

Greetings! There are only four empires that are written in Daniel that comprise to total amount of empires that will exist on earth, with respect to the Holy City Jerusalem, until the Millennium rule of Christ at Jerusalem.

The prophecy in revelation is an unfolding prophecy, over the times of the gentiles, that embodies all of the kingdoms that will arise on earth before the Millennium rule of Christ Jesus at Jerusalem. For lucifer is written to be the god of this world and age. He was given to power to rule until God's words are fulfilled. We are at the part of the prophecy just before the empire is given a mouth to utter blasphemes against God and to exercise its authority for 42 months in fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano

Okay, so just for my edification, prophetica, what is your information that substantiates the hypothesis that America is the fourth empi,re?



WesP -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/29/2008 2:43:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophetica

Greetings! There are only four empires that are written in Daniel that comprise to total amount of empires that will exist on earth, with respect to the Holy City Jerusalem, until the Millennium rule of Christ at Jerusalem.

The prophecy in revelation is an unfolding prophecy, over the times of the gentiles, that embodies all of the kingdoms that will arise on earth before the Millennium rule of Christ Jesus at Jerusalem. For lucifer is written to be the god of this world and age. He was given to power to rule until God's words are fulfilled. We are at the part of the prophecy just before the empire is given a mouth to utter blasphemes against God and to exercise its authority for 42 months in fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano

Okay, so just for my edification, prophetica, what is your information that substantiates the hypothesis that America is the fourth empi,re?



You lost me here, prophetica! I can't see America in the position you describe.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/29/2008 7:45:09 PM)

I think America is the first beast of Daniel 7:4.

As such, it will a part of the final fourth beast since the first three beasts of Daniel are combined to make up that "beast" of a nation in Revelation 13:2.

Yeah, yeah; I know the four beasts of Daniel are supposed to be the same exact thing as the four parts of the statue Nebuchadnezzar saw in a dream, but if so, then how does that interpretation hold with the evidence within Daniel 7:12 whereby the first three beast survive the destruction of the fourth?

If the four beasts of Daniel 7 are a parallel account to the four parts of the statue in Daniel 2, then allowing them all to be end-time nations that combine into the same terrible beast at the end of statue - then when the "head" of the fourth beast is cut off, the initial body "parts" can still live on for a little while (the 30 and 45 day periods).



1love1God1way -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/29/2008 7:47:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint

I think America is the first beast of Daniel 7:4.


How so?



Sinner-Saint -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/29/2008 8:02:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
How so?

First is the transition which precedes the nation's formation.

Secondly is the attribute given to it.

America came from England, the winged lion. If you read American Colonial history as I have from those who lived and wrote during that time, you can easily see how they were stripped of any power they had had as former English subjects. This loss of power was real and they expressed their frustration continually. This equates to having their "wings" (a source of strength) torn off.

With the Revolution, America was reborn, and standing like a man, has become one of the foci of secular humanism in the world.

In the second part, America is the only nation to put human rights at the forefront of its foreign policy. America is the only nation to wage war and try to not kill civilians.



bob97 -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/29/2008 8:16:48 PM)

quote:

has become one of the foci of secular humanism in the world.


When compared to the EU, we don't even show up on the screen.

Bob



cybrjewls -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/29/2008 8:33:12 PM)

Greetings! We have that Daniel 7:12 says The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time. This is the case, that, there still exists other governances worldwide that are eventually going to be stripped of their authority when the 10 worldwide leaders arise and take control of the world for 7 years.

The first beast was babylon as a parallel account with Nebuchadnezzars dream of the statue that comprised the total of all of the nations that will arise as kingdoms on the earth until the 10 world leaders, represented as toes on the statue, arise during the last 7 years of history preceeding the Millennium rule of Christ at Jerusalem.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint

I think America is the first beast of Daniel 7:4.

As such, it will a part of the final fourth beast since the first three beasts of Daniel are combined to make up that "beast" of a nation in Revelation 13:2.

Yeah, yeah; I know the four beasts of Daniel are supposed to be the same exact thing as the four parts of the statue Nebuchadnezzar saw in a dream, but if so, then how does that interpretation hold with the evidence within Daniel 7:12 whereby the first three beast survive the destruction of the fourth?

If the four beasts of Daniel 7 are a parallel account to the four parts of the statue in Daniel 2, then allowing them all to be end-time nations that combine into the same terrible beast at the end of statue - then when the "head" of the fourth beast is cut off, the initial body "parts" can still live on for a little while (the 30 and 45 day periods).



Sinner-Saint -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/30/2008 8:43:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
(...America) has become one of the foci of secular humanism in the world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97
When compared to the EU, we don't even show up on the screen.

The EU is more secular than us, which as the cradle of Christianity, is ironic.

However, the U.S.A. still is a very strong cultural nexus for secular humanism.

Because of the relationship between the two, that's exactly why I said America is one of the foci (plural) of secular humanism. The only other way I could have succinctly stated the reality of the situation would have been to say America is one of two foci...

Still, it is America that has a "heart of man" - more so than even Nebuchadnezzar. No nation has put human rights in such a high place as us.

I think there are parallels between Babylon and America as well.
Just as there are parallels between Medes-Persia with Russia, and the split between ancient Greece and the politics of nations within the EU.

If America, Russia, and the EU were to unite in a Federated state, headed by an administration of ten ministers (like the "body" of the EU - how it is constituted...) then you would realize a totally revived Roman Empire, unlike anything that came before it, which would also be terrible in its strength.

America, Russia, and Europe are all "Roman" in their governments, economics, and military.

America is the only country to go through a transformation in its formation which matches the description of the first beast.

If you want to hold onto the age-old interpretation that the beasts and the parts of the statue are absolutely the same thing, how is it that the first three beasts survive the defeat of the fourth?

With the fourth being an administrative "head" which acts as the command and control function over the various parts which make it up - then when the anti-Christ and the False Prophet are captured at Armageddon - that "head" is cut off, and the body, now without its command and control, decimated by the Wrath of God, still exists for a little while, but without its former power: Daniel 7:12.



bob97 -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/30/2008 12:21:37 PM)

Saint,

You’re understand obviously depends on how long it might be until the end. Given sufficient time, the alliance of nations you suggest might be a possibility. Satan currently has control of the head of this nation; press, visual media, legal and government and given time it will destroy the heart.

In today’s political climate it is much more likely that Russia will side with the Islamic world, Russia is rapidly becoming an Islamic Nation and of course that might prevent the alliance you suggest. Russia is much more likely to fall into an Islamic alliance today than anything else.

quote:

America is the only country to go through a transformation in its formation which matches the description of the first beast.


Not to be argumentative but England was a nation and would very much fit the billing.

It is a complex issue on which we can only speculate and as such I can only look to the worldly developments and try to fit them into prophetic boxes. God is steering this boat and we will all arrive at the destination he has charted. [:)]
Bob



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/30/2008 5:28:29 PM)

Uhm... about Daniel 7... Many scholars believe it to be a parallel of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2. If that be the case, the first beast is Babylon (makes sense because of the lion being the most majestic of land mammals and being associated with the Head of Gold), the second is Persia (the bear which leans on the Persians because the Medes were incredibly weak, and the three ribs being the three empires conquered by Persia), the third is Greece (Alexander moved lightning fast across the entire earth, with his four chief generals getting his empire after his death), and the fourth is Rome (being the great beast that destroys all else, Rome occupied more than half of the known world at the time). So no, England and America are not found in Daniel.

From what I have seen, America is not even mentioned in the End-Time scenario. That is either good news (because we aren't doing stuff in the echelon of evil of raising up the antichrist) or is very frightening (because we don't exist at the time).

Hope that helps.
Adam



Saved-To-Serve -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/30/2008 10:48:27 PM)

For those who are not aware, there is a school of prophetic interpretation which sees America depicted in the second beast of Rev. 13.
There are many books and websites providing exposition on this particular interpretation.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/30/2008 11:11:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Many scholars believe it to be a parallel of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2. ... So no, England and America are not found in Daniel.

Well that is the standard answer and has been for centuries from even before the Americas were even known by Christian scholars.

However, there are two facts of Bible prophecy which contradict the age-old interpretation.

One is Daniel 7:12.
The other is Revelation 13:2.

The first says the first three survive the destruction of the fourth.
The second says the first three make up the fourth.

Both point to the beasts being contemporary nations to the fourth.
Both point to Daniel 7 being a parallel account to the broad overview in Daniel 2 which gives us more detail about a time of great interest to us: the end-times.

To rely on the age-old interpretation means you have to discard these two facts of Bible prophecy.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/31/2008 5:05:12 AM)

To force-fit a prophecy that has had an "age old interpretation" into modern events is refusing to ignore the stark historical realities that surround the Bible. As I said, many scholars would give you this answer, so either they are all incorrect (which would mean that everyone who ever believed that since the prophesy was made and fulfilled were wrong), or you are. I'll choose to stick to the age-old interpretation... "Show us the ancient paths, God." No empire (with the exception of modern China) has been as anti-semitic and anti-christian as any of the empires listed in the "old interpretation", so I think I know why I believe what I do.

Daniel 7:12....... Notice how Greece, Rome, Iraq, and Iran all still exist? Notice further that none are particular World Superpowers? Their dominion has been taken away, and their lives are being prolonged. So all four still fit.

Revelation 13:2...... The four kingdoms of Daniel 7 have many elements in common with the Anti-christ's Kingdom of Revelation 13 and 17. This is not a difficulty. The Anti-christ's kingdom will have the Economic prowess of Babylon (and it's capital, for that matter), it will have the military power of Persia (and probably many of the same elements of religion), it will have the political savvy of Greece, and it will have the violence and cruelty of Rome. This is SO not a difficulty.

Here is the thing... We don't WANT America to be in end-time prophecy. Why? Because everybody but Israel that gets mentioned in the End-Times gets pimp-slapped because of the great evils they are doing in the end-times. That is the fact. If we are in End-Time prophecy, we had better brace up for some serious hurt in the End-Time scenario.

Adam



Who.I.Am -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/31/2008 7:14:10 AM)

Hey All & Hi,,

quote:

I'd also like to hear anyone who has any ideas on America's place in prophecy.



There is another way to look at it,,


When Daniel speaks about the beast in Chap 7 , he’s also speaking of Empires that once ruled the World,, how they rose and which Empire opposed them during their reign.


The Beast in revelation 13 is made up of the first three, the Lion, Bear & Leopard so the revealing of that Beast may be in Dan 7,, as already mentioned.

So when did America become top Dog? On the 16th July 1945 in a military exercise called the Trinity Test, it was the first detonation in a certain thing known as the Manhattan Project.
When America joined the War that was tearing Europe apart by the hands of Hitler & Mussolini in 1941, who would know that by the time the war between the Allies & Axis powers had finished. That America would be the most powerful nation on the planet taking the crown from the British Empire.
Here is where America stood up, when the two mushroom clouds filled the skies over Japan. That’s when the road started for where America is today,, the only Empire(Superpower) left.

Now have a look at the evolution of America since WWII compared with the beasts of Dan 7 what you can see is the beast of Rev taking shape.


Lion – America standing up, becoming not an Empire as Britain was but what we soon named a superpower. The reason for this was the dropping of the two Atomic bombs and a new cry for Liberty was heard.


Bear - The Cold War Begun. Russia the other Superpower and America had a thirst for Weapons & the Nuclear power race of stock piling weapons dominated the next 30 years (50’s- 70’s). The Cold War for America also had three major events take place during that time, the Korean & Vietnam Wars and Cuban missile crisis.


Leopard – The new Greece and only superpower left. By the 80’s Russia and fallen and America was the only Power left& Russia was no longer a threat. Yet just as Reagan was being inaugurated a new threat was on the horizon, Iraq & Iran. Reagan Bush Clinton & W,, have all had dealings with Iraq(Babylon of old) . The four heads of the Leopard may just be the 4 Presidents & the 4 dealings with Iraq, the last one ending with W on the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln declaring, Mission Accomplished.


The last beast is what’s taking place around the world at present,, with America’s new & sudden push for Peace in Israel within the year.


Capture the Dream,
yours In Christ,,

God Bless



Sinner-Saint -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/31/2008 8:03:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Notice how Greece, Rome, Iraq, and Iran all still exist?

Well if you're going to force-fit an interpretation into your eschatology, then I'd say you'd have it.

To say that modern Greece, the city of Rome, occupied Iraq, or Islamic Iran are the same as the former kingdoms is very much a stretch of the imagination.

Yes, the landmass is still there, but the government, people, and culture are not.

How over 2000 years is a little while is a little itsy-bitsy bit of a stretch too.

So yes, I think ancestor-worship in the form of going with the age-old interpretation is not warranted at all. To say the beasts are the same as the parts of the statue does not conform to what is in prophecy.

And that is what we must do. Not fit the Bible to our thinking, but to see how our thinking can fit the Bible. If what we think doesn't fit, we have to change it until it does.

Those who came before us, never could see how the modern nations fit.

I for one, could not fathom who the third beast was until I looked at EU Constitution in 2003 and compared that to the attribute given the third beast: the power to rule. Then it struck me.

But keep watching Adam, and I think we'll see how prophecy is fulfilled.



teriwrist -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/31/2008 11:41:15 AM)

I would definately consider America to be at least a Beast Kingdom/Nation but also a high possibility of being Mystery Babylon or The Beast of Revelation with many of your False Prophet Religious leaders who love the Beast & worship the Image of the Beast?

You can find the books of the Apocrapha online. They were eliminated from the King Jimmy Bible in the mid 1800's perhaps because they foretold some much of a Nation who's symbol of Idolatry is an Eagle. Rome used this Symbol as does the USA as did Hitler.

Your Nation was founded by men who were mostly Freemason's & Deists. There have been pictures upon the Net about all the Symbols of Freemason Idolatry in your land, in other lands, and upon Govt. Buildings in Israel. A symbol of Freemason Idolatry is called an Obelisk. There is a predominate one in your Nation.

I read through a very long Freemason Website that unfortunately is no longer on the Net. That particular Freemason website expressed they believed they were the children of the Nephlim who mated with earth women according to the Book of Enoch. They thought the story of the Serpent coming into the Garden of Eden was a good thing.

There are quite a few videos about Freemasons & other secret occult socities at Youtube as well as video's about Mystery Babylon. Some are very interesting. Can't say I agree with them all 100 percent.

From what I have read the Founders of America patterend American after Rome. Senate. Mighty Legions. Taxes. Rome had freedom of Religion as long as one did not teach Sedition towards Rome. Thus render unto Caesar what's is Caesar's and unto God which is Gods.

Jesus did not equate God with Caesar or Rome & since America is patterened after Rome it would be real doubtful he would equate God with another version of the Roman Empire.

Makes sense as Rome was a warmongering Empire killing anyone in their path. So lost in their sins of pride, vanity, greed, & murder just like any other Nations upon the earth before them and after them.

Jesus did not teach any sedition towards Rome nor any violence towards Rome as him being the Son of God he has a real long outlook about things that world of man does not have at all.

If America does turn out to be Mystery Babylon then God puts it into the minds of men to burn her in one hour. Thus he would most likely put this into the minds of Russia or Russia & China.

There are other prophecies of other peoples about America long before America was a Nation. Long before the abomination nuclear weapons were invented, a part of the increase in knowledge. Those prophecies state that the land now called America pretty much gets burnt off the face of the earth.

Russia & China are Beasts of a different sort. The E.U. will be a predominate Beast Kingdom/Nation, too. Already people in the U.K are decrying that Tony "New World Order" Blair sold them out to the E.U. & Tony Blair has announced he will run for President of the E.U.

The Presidency of the E.U. will be much like the phoney elections of any Nation including America where the Candidates are in the pockets of the Banks & Corporations and are already commited the serve the Banks & Corporations as well as quite possibily their NWO.



WesP -> RE: America In Prophecy (1/31/2008 3:35:30 PM)

quote:

Your Nation was founded by men who were mostly Freemason's & Deists. There have been pictures upon the Net about all the Symbols of Freemason Idolatry in your land, in other lands, and upon Govt. Buildings in Israel. A symbol of Freemason Idolatry is called an Obelisk. There is a predominate one in your Nation.

I read through a very long Freemason Website that unfortunately is no longer on the Net. That particular Freemason website expressed they believed they were the children of the Nephlim who mated with earth women according to the Book of Enoch. They thought the story of the Serpent coming into the Garden of Eden was a good thing.

There are quite a few videos about Freemasons & other secret occult socities at Youtube as well as video's about Mystery Babylon. Some are very interesting. Can't say I agree with them all 100 percent.

From what I have read the Founders of America patterend American after Rome. Senate. Mighty Legions. Taxes. Rome had freedom of Religion as long as one did not teach Sedition towards Rome. Thus render unto Caesar what's is Caesar's and unto God which is Gods.


Perhaps a quick jaunt over to Conspiracy Central will intrigue you. Hmm? [:D]



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