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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 12:35:54 PM
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stamper_ben
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From: Lone Star State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Changing culture is changing hearts and minds. Laws do not do that. It was not laws that forced me to accept MY responsibility for how I feed my addiction.
But the jerks who don't have our sense of responsibility and business owners who don't care, someone must draw a line in the sand.
Then let it begin with you and me.
NOT big brother.
Example - How do we go about trying to show Jesus and change hearts and minds toward Him? Do we push it down their throats and enact laws, or do we show them Who it is that we reflect with love?
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We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 12:36:37 PM
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rainbowtvp
Posts: 1024
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From: The Unted State of Confusion
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I never saw your answer on if you wanted a ban on burning leaves or not? When I lived in Indiana, you couldn't walk down the block without someone burning leaves. It got into the homes and the businesses alike. A lot of people have a hard time handling that kind of smoke too.
I know you weren't addressing me, but some communities DO ban leaf burning. And most at least have limitations on what can be burned. It is dangerous and unlawful to burn treated or painted wood, poison ivy, plastics, etc. In my township (which is mostly rural), burning is limited to certain times & days of the week. Of course, few people honor that, and I have had to stop hanging clothes outside to dry because invariably soon after I hang them, someone decides to light one up... and the ashes fall in my yard 
Back to the topic. For those who oppose the bans... think for a second if it were your mom with COPD, your grandfather with emphysema, your child with asthma... whose health would be directly affected by someone's choice to smoke for their pleasure- would you feel differently?!?
As someone said, food allergies/etc for the most part are different. I have food allergies and do not eat out much because of it (because I don't trust the safety practices)... but someone sitting at the next table eating dairy or peanuts is not going to make me ill.
We also need to look at the number affected, too, I think. Certainly we can't make the world safe & accessible for everyone. Very few people are allergic to plants or perfume to the point it will put them in the hospital. My ds actually was in the hospital last month from poison ivy allergy, even though our yard is snow covered & he hasn't been outside!, but he is a rare case...
LOTS of people are severely affected by cigarette smoke, however.
Tara P
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 12:36:45 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6070
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From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: EverLearning
That's it keep attempting to demonize by attaching illegal/vile acts to the allowing of smoking in one's private business...
It's one's own private business only if one only allows one's self inside the store. Once he opens it to the public it he, umm..., has a moral responsibility for the safety and welfare of ALL his customers, not just the ones he favors.
I'll ask you, since nobody else wants to answer:
Why do you trust business owners more than government in matters of health and safety? You may not trust government, but businesses do not have a sterling reputation for spending money or exerting effort to protect customers unless required. The very fact that a restaurant owner chooses to allow the burning of leaves from a member of the nightshade family should clue you in.
Small business owners generally know most of their customers on a professional and personal level.
Pretty much everything the gov't touches, it messes up.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 12:36:51 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
So you're saying that what applies to Olive Garden and JCPenny, should also apply to the small business owner? They should all have to meet the same standards?
In matters of health and safety, yes. No smoking at Olive Garden, no smoking at Sue's Hair Salon.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 12:42:18 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Small business owners generally know most of their customers on a professional and personal level.
Pretty much everything the gov't touches, it messes up.
I was 28 when Ronald Reagan ran against Carter. I voted for Ron and every Republican presidential candidate since. But life has taught me that A) Republicans favor business interests above the common person and B) Business places my safety and health low on their agenda. IOW, I trust business less than government when it comes to safety and health.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 12:46:32 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Example - How do we go about trying to show Jesus and change hearts and minds toward Him? Do we push it down their throats and enact laws, or do we show them Who it is that we reflect with love?
But how do we deal with people who prove they don't value our welfare by breaking into our homes, holding us up at gunpoint, raping our daughters, stealing our cars? Have we invited them to sit down and discuss what we think is good and reasonable behavior or do we pass laws assigning appropriate penalties for those who disagree with us?
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 12:46:52 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6070
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From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Small business owners generally know most of their customers on a professional and personal level.
Pretty much everything the gov't touches, it messes up.
I was 28 when Ronald Reagan ran against Carter. I voted for Ron and every Republican presidential candidate since. But life has taught me that A) Republicans favor business interests above the common person and B) Business places my safety and health low on their agenda. IOW, I trust business less than government when it comes to safety and health.
Ah, I liked Reagan too. Not necessarily the Rep party, but that is usually the line that I go.
It sounds like you and I have a different idea of business owners. I try to make it a habit to get to know business owners in my area personally. Although I love the aforementioned Olive Garden, I'd rather spend my time and money doing business with the smaller businesses. Then you don't see the big corporation out to make money, just "Joe and Glenda" looking to earn an honest living.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 1:07:09 PM
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zmanfan38
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: zmanfan38
quote:
ORIGINAL: zmanfan38
This is it in a nutshell. If smokers would show non-smokers the common courtesy and basic human decency of not smoking in an enclosed building with non-smokers inside, this thread would not exist and government intervention concerning smoking bans would not exist. The restaurants would be crowded with all kinds of people wanting to enjoy a meal and they wouldn't have to put a smoking declaration sign on the door. The government would be tackling something else besides pleas from sick people to intervene on their behalf because of smoke. We wouldn't have to have this conversation at all. We could actually plan to meet and enjoy a meal together and talk about what God has been doing in our lives and praying for each other's burdens.
It really is as simple as that.
Anyone...Anyone???
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
our culture is making a shift. it's deciding that public smoking is unpleasant and unhealthful and it's not going to continue in the same way it has in the past. transitions are hard. i sympathize with those business owners and smokers tht are in the middle of doing things and are bitten by the transition. but the move to control public smoking is right.
the freedom to choose the unpleasant, unhealthful and harmful to innocent bystanders, addiction, still stands, but the freedom to impose harm on others in public places while enjoying the addiction is fading away. it's the smoker's addiction, and the consequence of inconvenience should be theirs.
for many this is a very tough change, but it's a good change. i
t's right for smokers to accept the responsibility for their addiction and find the time to smoke without doing it in public places. if the inconvenience of finding a spot to smoke near a place of business is too bothersome, they can choose to go elsewhere. they need to carry the burden of their addiction, not ask the non smokers to do it.
As a smoker who isn't at that point of quitting yet, I want to address both these posts.
I have and do accept the responsibility of my addiction. I do make the choice of when and where to light up. I do not do it indoors, unless I am in that portion of an establishment that legally allows it. I rarely light up in my own home, and when I do it is after the child is put to bed. I do not light up when I am upwind of a crowd and there is a chance that the smoke will drift their way. I do not light up in the car with children in it. I do not light up in front of the daycare center by the workplace or in front of the school. Yes, I feed my addiction, and will be set free of this one at the right time as I have been freed of the others I have suffered under at the correct time...
So what Mrsdash says is right, it is culture that will make the change in attitudes and actions. Not laws.
Ben, you and many like you are the exception. If only the majority of smokers were as sensitive to others as you are...and I thank you for it. What you wrote made me think of my friend, Lauren. We have been very close friends for about 12 years and she's been a smoker the whole time we've known each other. We try to go out to brunch, just the two of us, on a Saturday about every 6 weeks. Before the smoking ban we'd always ask for non-smoking at the place we go to eat. She would get so mad sitting there and smelling smoke. It kind of cracked me up. She's a good egg (like you).
_____________________________
«Christi»
Heal my heart and make it clean
Open up my eyes to the things unseen
Show me how to love like You have loved me
Hosanna by Hillsong <Link
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 1:20:47 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10809
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Example - How do we go about trying to show Jesus and change hearts and minds toward Him? Do we push it down their throats and enact laws, or do we show them Who it is that we reflect with love?
But how do we deal with people who prove they don't value our welfare by breaking into our homes, holding us up at gunpoint, raping our daughters, stealing our cars? Have we invited them to sit down and discuss what we think is good and reasonable behavior or do we pass laws assigning appropriate penalties for those who disagree with us?
Smoking isn't a criminal act.
Yet anyway....
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 2:13:12 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5824
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Example - How do we go about trying to show Jesus and change hearts and minds toward Him? Do we push it down their throats and enact laws, or do we show them Who it is that we reflect with love?
But how do we deal with people who prove they don't value our welfare by breaking into our homes, holding us up at gunpoint, raping our daughters, stealing our cars? Have we invited them to sit down and discuss what we think is good and reasonable behavior or do we pass laws assigning appropriate penalties for those who disagree with us?
Smoking isn't a criminal act.
Yet anyway....
Nothing was a criminal act until a law was enacted, some place, some time. Point is, we pass laws for our protection against those who don't care.
Like playing music at home or in your car. Neither is illegal until a certain threshold is passed. As someone else mentioned, drinking at many restaurants is legal and acceptable - until a certain threshold is passed.
Even so, there are certain places and circumstances where smoking is banned, not because of smoke, but due to the fire at the end of the cigarette.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 3:53:09 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9204
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Example - How do we go about trying to show Jesus and change hearts and minds toward Him? Do we push it down their throats and enact laws, or do we show them Who it is that we reflect with love?
But how do we deal with people who prove they don't value our welfare by breaking into our homes, holding us up at gunpoint, raping our daughters, stealing our cars? Have we invited them to sit down and discuss what we think is good and reasonable behavior or do we pass laws assigning appropriate penalties for those who disagree with us?
Smoking isn't a criminal act.
Yet anyway....
True, but neither is alcohol. However, the government has all kinds of restrictions on who can drink, where, when and what they can do when they drink. Why? To protect the public.
Why is that ok, but it's not ok to regulate smoking which affects far more folks (because of how smoke spreads) than alcohol? The only way I will be injured by someone drunk, is if they cause an accident or lose control and directly impact me. I will not be harmed by standing next to them (other than maybe feeling a wee bit queezy when they puke all over themselves). One person smoking a single cigarette on the other side of the room however causes me harm just by the very act of smoking. They don't have to come near me. They don't have to cause an accident. They just have to smoke.
I believe the government has a right to regulate alcohol and drunkenness and by the same token, I believe the government has a right to regulate smoking. And I shouldn't have to never leave my home to avoid harm from someone else's addiction - I really could care less what the small business owner down the road thinks.
I'm usually the one saying the government overregulates stuff. But, there is a time and place for laws. You may disagree that this is the place, but my lungs differ with you. 
And for those who think it's no big deal to "just not go somewhere that allows smoking", you seem to be missing out on what so many of us have said. Before the bans in our areas, there was NO alternative. I was in college, the first time I ever knew of a totally smoke-free restaurant (and it wasn't even in my area - I was travelling). It wasn't until people had enough and demanded government protection (because contrary to what some of you think, the businesses were NOT listening to their customers) that non-smokers finally received the basic right to be able to go bowling or go to a restaurant (even though smokers were the minority).
Most businesses don't want to shake the boat. It doesn't matter how many people complain. They don't want to risk what they KNOW for something they don't know. Going smoke-free was huge. Businesses in this area were terrified. They didn't know what to expect - especially with so many outraged smokers breathing down their necks.
And yet, smokers around here discovered they could last an hour without a cigarette and non-smokers suddenly found new ways places to spend their money. It ended up being a win-win. I know plenty of smokers around here who have enjoyed the ban as well, believe it or not!
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Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 4:06:31 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10809
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quote:
It ended up being a win-win. Now if I could only find some one to serve me... Oh, that's right. They all got laid off from lack of business.
Got a light?
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We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 5:15:17 PM
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everythingat
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Phosadaud, so should we enforce this on a national level or leave it up to local government? Because there are many places out there that have an equal amount of smoke-free restaurants and smoke-filled restaurants.
It's my personal opinion that it should be left up to the locals.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 5:21:46 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everythingat
...The non-smokers were in the minority, and money was the root of what caused it to be overturned...
Where on earth do you live? Seriously. I sure don't want to visit someplace stuck in 1945.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 5:44:03 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1178
Joined: 7/31/2007
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Since the Colorado smoking bans, most businesses who cater to smokers have merely added patios for the smokers. Some businesses are doing better, some are doing worse, but that's the way things always go... especially considering the economic slump the entire country is in right now.
Otherwise, here are the statistics.
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4559
quote:
In the United States, an estimated 25.9 million men (23.9 percent) and 20.7 million women (18.1 percent) are smokers. These people are at higher risk of heart attack and stroke.
So, you're saying the filthy habit of rather less than a quarter of people in this country should be allowed to make visiting restaurants an unpleasant experience for the other 75-80% of people in this country.
Why?
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 7:55:15 PM
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phosadaud
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From: Washington State
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Here too!
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~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/29/2008 9:47:32 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1991
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I used to have a secretary whose husband smoked two packs a day. For fifteen years I told him that lung cancer was looming on the horizon. I asked what was more important, cigs or spending more time with his family. The day he was diagnosed with lung cancer, he cried like a baby about how unfair it was! He died at age 50 which IMO is 30 years too short. I tried to be sympathetic but there are consequences to every bad choice and smoking IS a very bd choice.
I guess some people can dismiss scientific fact whenever they want to. Flat earth society anyone?
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And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/1/2008 5:13:05 PM
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everythingat
Posts: 208
Joined: 2/21/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: everythingat
...The non-smokers were in the minority, and money was the root of what caused it to be overturned...
Where on earth do you live? Seriously. I sure don't want to visit someplace stuck in 1945.
That's a little rude.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/1/2008 5:39:57 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6070
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: everythingat
...The non-smokers were in the minority, and money was the root of what caused it to be overturned...
Where on earth do you live? Seriously. I sure don't want to visit someplace stuck in 1945.
Sounds like where I lived in Indiana. It also sounds like a lot of small towns.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/1/2008 9:20:56 PM
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everythingat
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I do live in a small town, DenimDiva. Which is why I'm saying it should be up to the local government in compliance with the local businesses to decide what's best in that area. I don't think anyone on here has mentioned a national ban, if they have...sorry, I have terrible memory. But many people on here who have called for a smoking ban haven't specified whether they want it for their area or nationally.
I do remember though that some people mentioned that parents smoking around their children should be considered as child abuse. Well...what are we going to do about the vast statistics of overweight children? If parents who smoke around children are abusing them, then certainly parents who allow their children to be overweight are also abusing them? I'm not justifying parents smoking around their children at all, I don't think that's right. But if we're going to consider one as abuse, we may as well explore everything that could be considered as parental abuse...
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/1/2008 11:11:41 PM
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zmanfan38
Posts: 9579
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ...for it's root, root, root for the CUBBIES!!!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everythingat
I do remember though that some people mentioned that parents smoking around their children should be considered as child abuse. Well...what are we going to do about the vast statistics of overweight children? If parents who smoke around children are abusing them, then certainly parents who allow their children to be overweight are also abusing them? I'm not justifying parents smoking around their children at all, I don't think that's right. But if we're going to consider one as abuse, we may as well explore everything that could be considered as parental abuse...
Idunno. I think I see your point that being overweight and second hand smoking are both unhealthy for children to be/do, but the two things are so different. If the child is overweight, and it's from an overindulgence of food (it could be from many other factors as well also), then the unhealthy state of the child is from too much of something that is essential for their very life...food. A child that is forced to smoke against their will (and they all are if there is smoke in their home), is unhealthy because of poison being forced into their little helpless bodies by someone else. Also, weight can be lost, but cellular changes in their little bodies can possibly kill them later in life even if they never choose to smoke themselves.
_____________________________
«Christi»
Heal my heart and make it clean
Open up my eyes to the things unseen
Show me how to love like You have loved me
Hosanna by Hillsong <Link
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/2/2008 10:40:00 AM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6070
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everythingat
I do remember though that some people mentioned that parents smoking around their children should be considered as child abuse. Well...what are we going to do about the vast statistics of overweight children? If parents who smoke around children are abusing them, then certainly parents who allow their children to be overweight are also abusing them? I'm not justifying parents smoking around their children at all, I don't think that's right. But if we're going to consider one as abuse, we may as well explore everything that could be considered as parental abuse...
This is true. Lets also go after the parents who let their children play violent video games or watch movies with a lot of sex and violence. None of these things are good for the children in anyway, but we don't call these parents child abusers, nor are we trying to make it illegal for parents to do that.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/2/2008 12:13:42 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1141
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we take that too far the other way...
let's stop interfering with parents that let their two year olds drink beer everyday. or smoking pot in the toddler's face every day... etc
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The smoke blows though our yard and seems to get into the ventilation somehow.
