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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/6/2008 3:16:00 PM
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Zhi
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quote:
The gov't didn't dream up abortion on it's own either. Roe vs. Wade, et al, is compliments of "concerned citizens" banning together to get the gov't to do something.
I'm not sure how you can compare a group of people making up an entirely fake case and getting a Supreme Court decision in a move to bypass the entire Legislative process, with people getting petitions signed in a grocery store parking lot and following the Legislative process to the letter... often requring a majority vote of area citizens, which is more Democracy than we usually get with our elected representatives voting on our behalf.
The only reasonable comparison I could come up with is the fact that both smoking and abortions kill people.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/6/2008 3:20:02 PM
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DenimDiva
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From: Concord, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
The gov't didn't dream up abortion on it's own either. Roe vs. Wade, et al, is compliments of "concerned citizens" banning together to get the gov't to do something.
I'm not sure how you can compare a group of people making up an entirely fake case and getting a Supreme Court decision in a move to bypass the entire Legislative process, with people getting petitions signed in a grocery store parking lot and following the Legislative process to the letter... often requring a majority vote of area citizens, which is more Democracy than we usually get with our elected representatives voting on our behalf.
The only reasonable comparison I could come up with is the fact that both smoking and abortions kill people.
People were saying that this isn't something that the gov't came up with, that it was "concerned citizens." There are "concerned citizens" that want the gov't to step in all over the place. Haven't a group of "concerned citizens" get together a get a law placed into effect really doesn't mean much. "Concerned citizens" can get some really bad laws put into practice sometimes.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/6/2008 3:39:49 PM
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Zhi
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If the concerned citizens make up the majority, though, then that's the entire point of our system of government... we the people choosing what we want to allow and disallow in our society. That doesn't mean laws will always be "good", but it IS the best form of government us imperfect humans have managed to come up with so far. Though, as moral considerations go, I think "not giving the people around you asthma, hives, breathing problems, nasty smells, and cancer" is right up there on the "things that are good" scale.
And again, Roe v Wade is a horrible example, because it was a court case, not a legislative action. There's a huge difference between the two.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/7/2008 2:22:14 PM
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kvonnegut
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To be honast, I haven't read most of the forum but I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I don't smoke because it's not my thing, but I am sympothize with smokers. I just moved to dry county down here in alabama ( I am orginally from the north east) and I must say i find it unjust. I just wondered to myself because alchohol has been illegal here since prohobition how legal it is to stop the sell a product. Of course, hardcore drugs have been illegal in the entire us for quit some time, but its on a federal level. I dont understand how a county in the usa and ban the selling a product! this country is built on ideas of a free market where people can buy and sell as they see fit. How is that on a national level everyone can buy and sell cigarettes and beer, but here you cant buy beer and cigarettes till your 19. Mostly this done by the influence of the local church around here, this is a small county and has over 200 churches. I think that an area being christian is a good thing but the problem with the church is they try to legistlate morality and not try to teach people moral things. If they can legally empose such things on the population they find it a victory but overlook the freedom this country has and the idea of personally empacting peoples lives to do what is right. I understand splitting a resturant where there are smokers and non-smokers but to say you cant smoke outside, in your car, in your home or that you company wont allow you to smoke anytime is ...well, it seems un american to me. I can go out and woof down a triple thickburger and own assult weapons here, but its illegal to buy a 6 pack....i feel like live in yemen.
anyway, this is just my rant... I am a christian but lately since I have moved here i find it so hard to maintain my christianity because to amount of christian influence as weird as that sounds. It seems so superficial here and so fake...it drives me nuts.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/7/2008 2:29:35 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
I just wondered to myself because alchohol has been illegal here since prohobition how legal it is to stop the sell a product.
I think if you'll check, you'll find that the people in your county have voted, probably many times, to keep your county dry. Alabama allows each county to decide whether it wants to allow the sale of alcohol. I grew up in a county like that and, eventually, enough people decided to permit the sale of alcoholic beverages. Back then, you had to be 21 to buy beer - or vote.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/7/2008 2:39:13 PM
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kvonnegut
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yes, I understand they vote about such matters but my question is about the legal precidence of voters banning products in a free market economy. Although booze is a lighting rod in this town, its still a product made here in american and sold all over the country without complaint. My point is being as free market as we are why does there even have to be a vote? If counties is mass. or vermont wanted to vote for marajuana to be legal (which I am sure many counties would) should it then be sold or allowed?
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/7/2008 2:48:48 PM
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JimboFletch
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Your beef is with democracy. Alabama is also one of the remaining few states without a lottery. If you don't like such decisions you have to avenues open to you: Change enough people's minds or relocate to a state/county with your values.
If it were up to me alone, I'd prohibit the sale of cigarettes and smokless tobacco products to anyone under 21 - and add a 200% tax on that sold to those over 21. Unlike alcohol, cigarettes and smokeless tobacco is an addition that the vast majority of its users spend a large part of their life trying to quit or wishing they could.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/7/2008 5:52:44 PM
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zmanfan38
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kvonnegut
...but my question is about the legal precidence of voters banning products in a free market economy.
As it pertains to this topic, smokers can buy all the cigarettes they want...they just can't continue to smother the rest of us.
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Godly council wanted here <--link
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/8/2008 11:31:33 AM
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stellaluna
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Yeah, I don't see what a free market has to do with all this.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/8/2008 1:48:18 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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as someone who is allergic to cig smoke I am GLAD people are finally taking some initiative to alleviate this problem from the general public areas.
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Mom to Jake, Hannah, Emma, and Jack
Baby Boy due June 25, 2008
"God has a plan for your life...and so does everybody else." ~said by Doinkdom
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/8/2008 4:11:02 PM
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PrincessDonna
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quote:
I've been hearing and reading various news articles about states that are imposing smoking bans in most public places like restaurants and even in parking lots of businesses and medical facilities.
New York has had the restaurant/bar law for a few years now. Can I just tell you how WONDERFUL it is to be able to go out to eat and still breathe, and not worry about my asthmatic child being sick after a day out?
Oh, and my husband smokes. Has tried to quit lots of times and lots of ways. But he does not smoke in our home, nor in our car, nor anywhere anyone might be bothered by it. You can be a smoker and be considerate of others. He is proof.
No one's right to inhale poisonous chemicals should interfere with another person's God-given right to breathe.
_____________________________
<----We love you, Mom!!!
But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.
I will sing to the Lord, for he has been good to me.
~Psalm 13:5-6~
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 12:44:48 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rnershigh
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Government has always stepped in to make laws whose sole purpose are to protect the public health and safety. Speed limit laws, safety belt laws, child seat laws, but these laws don't generate one tenth the debate as a smoker's ban does. Nicotine is intentionally added to cigarettes. Why? To keep the user's of the product addicted. But dare not call a smoker a drug addict even though it's a textbook description of one. Is that why this topic gets so emotional for the hard core nicotine user?
Nicotine is actually found naturally in the tobacco plant. Nicotine produces a euphoric high for the person and this is why so many people are addicted to cigarettes and why it is very hard for them to quit smoking. Your body grows dependent on the nicotine and craves it, so in that regard, it is an addiction that is not dissimilar to any other drug addiction such as heroin or cocaine use, in the physiological and psychological characteristics it produces in the addict. The presence of nicotine causes the neurons and neurotransmitters in the brain of a smoker to undergo a change, now the brain must have the nicotine in order to function properly. Quitting is difficult as the body actually needs the nicotine to function, although it's only short term, this is why it's hard for many smokers to quit.
A person who is an addict, whatever substance they are abusing, usually (not always, but like most addictions, this is usually the case) don't have a care for how their addiction affects people around them. This is why I believe in this instance, with cigarettes being banned in more and more places, is a good thing.
Nicotine meets both the psychological and physiological measures of addiction:
Psychological - People who are addicted to something will use it compulsively, without regard for its negative effects on their health or their life. A good example would be someone who continues to smoke, even as they use an oxygen tank to breathe because of the damage smoking has done to their lungs.
Physiological - Neuroscientists call anything that turns on the reward pathway in the brain addictive. Because stimulating this neural circuitry makes you feel so good, you will continue to do it again and again to get those feelings back.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: rnershigh
...Nicotine produces a euphoric high for the person and this is why so many people are addicted to cigarettes and why it is very hard for them to quit smoking...
That is, sadly, true for a brief time and, thereafter, on rare and unpredictable occasions. The majority of the time, the nicotine fix simply prevents withdrawal symptoms.
quote:
The presence of nicotine causes the neurons and neurotransmitters in the brain of a smoker to undergo a change, now the brain must have the nicotine in order to function properly. Quitting is difficult as the body actually needs the nicotine to function, although it's only short term, this is why it's hard for many smokers to quit.
That's the main reason quitting is so hard. It isn't the desire to get any kind of high, it's just to feel "normal" enough to function. The first 5 days without nicotine is extremely difficult as the body rids itself of the nicotine. Even then, many things will trigger strong cravings weeks and months after a person is nicotine free.
Quiting ain't for sissies.
Well said!! And what I believe is needed is PRAYER, Patients, Mercy & Grace from others to encourage those who do and/or will desire to quit, Not laws that take away their God given right to choose. After all, "It is God who gives both the will and the to do."[Phil. 2:13]; NOT more laws.
< Message edited by Pat-rebel_lady -- 3/10/2008 12:56:02 PM >
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 2:05:10 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1188
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quote:
Well said!! And what I believe is needed is PRAYER, Patients, Mercy & Grace from others to encourage those who do and/or will desire to quit, Not laws that take away their God given right to choose. After all, "It is God who gives both the will and the to do."[Phil. 2:13]; NOT more laws.
laws aren't taking away their right to choose, laws are telling them they have the responsibiblity to be considerate of the health of others, and to keep the byproduct of their addiction away from publically used places.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 2:07:48 PM
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zmanfan38
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The laws are in place because there was no mercy or grace extended to the non-smokers for all these years in public places.
I for one (a non-smoker) have and do pray for, have patience with, extend mercy and grace to and encourage my smoking friends who want to and try to quit. I do the same for the ones who don't want to quit right now. I'm very fortunate to have lots of friends who smoke who would never dream of smoking in my house or smoking in their own house or car if I were there or smoking in a restaurant where other non-smokers are eating (including me). They are probably the most selfless and respectful and respectable people I know. It's the smokers who don't have the human decency to allow others their God given right to breathe who earned these smoking bans.
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GB = Gorgeous Baby
Godly council wanted here <--link
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 2:16:03 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
Well said!! And what I believe is needed is PRAYER, Patients, Mercy & Grace from others to encourage those who do and/or will desire to quit, Not laws that take away their God given right to choose. After all, "It is God who gives both the will and the to do."[Phil. 2:13]; NOT more laws.
I don't think those last 3 words were there when I first read that post or I would have mentioned you are misusing scripture to support an untenable position.
Phil. 2:13 states, "for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Either you think it's God's good pleasure that people remain addicted to nicotine or that He isn't able to give you enough will to quit or that smokers are in open rebellion to God's will and good pleasure. None of those fit the passage or your intended point.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 3:56:55 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zmanfan38
I'm very fortunate to have lots of friends who smoke who would never dream of smoking in my house or smoking in their own house or car if I were there or smoking in a restaurant where other non-smokers are eating (including me). They are probably the most selfless and respectful and respectable people I know. It's the smokers who don't have the human decency to allow others their God given right to breathe who earned these smoking bans.
EXACTLY!!
That's why the most selfless and respectful and respectable smokers are grouped together with the smokers who don't have the human decency to allow others their God given right to breathe; And this is right? Just like there are two type groups of smokers, there is also two type groups of non-smokers. I think it's wrong for those who have turn themselves inside out to do what is right towards others to be punished with the offenders.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 4:02:23 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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i'm confused by your post. who's being punished? who's turned themselves inside-out, or how?
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 4:08:16 PM
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PrincessDonna
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Those who are already respectful to nonsmokers need to change very little to comply with the new laws. They aren't being punished.
_____________________________
<----We love you, Mom!!!
But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.
I will sing to the Lord, for he has been good to me.
~Psalm 13:5-6~
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 6:38:00 PM
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rnershigh
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
Those who are already respectful to nonsmokers need to change very little to comply with the new laws. They aren't being punished.
I agree. The considerate smokers who don't smoke in public places that allow smoking aren't being affected by smoking bans. Their behaviors wouldn't have changed so it's not forcing them to be punished. They are choosing not to smoke around non-smokers.
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O Grave! where is thy Victory?
O Death! where is thy Sting?
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 7:23:56 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
Those who are already respectful to nonsmokers need to change very little to comply with the new laws. They aren't being punished.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rnershigh
I agree. The considerate smokers who don't smoke in public places that allow smoking aren't being affected by smoking bans. Their behaviors wouldn't have changed so it's not forcing them to be punished. They are choosing not to smoke around non-smokers.
You are right; very little need to change to comply with the new laws; except now they must become closet smokers (the closet been out their own back doors) and they never leave their homes.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 7:35:08 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 656
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quote:
You are right; very little need to change to comply with the new laws; except now they must become closet smokers (the closet been out their own back doors) and they never leave their homes.
Sure they can leave their homes. They can go anywhere they want, as long as they don't smoke in enclosed public spaces like restaurants.
Plenty of enjoyable things are restricted to private places. So smoking is yet another one now. Why? Because it's so terribly unpleasant and hazardous for those around it.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 7:57:21 PM
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garsyt
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and if smokers were given free reign to smoke whereever and whenever they wanted to - THEN there would be a LOT of non-smokers that would be restricted to their homes as well. My youngest ds would be one of them.
NO one is saying that someone who chooses to smoke can't. They just can't smoke in certain places. Surely one can get by for a couple hours without a nicotine fix. However - people like my ds CAN't go a couple hours without breathing. So in order to make smokers happy - are you saying my child's life needs to be restricted to our 1500 sq foot home?
Blessings,
Garsy
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Leave me alone - I'm old and deserve a nap!
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 3/10/2008 8:41:00 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1188
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
Those who are already respectful to nonsmokers need to change very little to comply with the new laws. They aren't being punished.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rnershigh
I agree. The considerate smokers who don't smoke in public places that allow smoking aren't being affected by smoking bans. Their behaviors wouldn't have changed so it's not forcing them to be punished. They are choosing not to smoke around non-smokers.
You are right; very little need to change to comply with the new laws; except now they must become closet smokers (the closet been out their own back doors) and they never leave their homes.
first, i don't know any smokers that now stay home because of the bans.
secondly, why shouldn't the smokers carry the burden of their own addiction?
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One smoker did have the nerve--in my opinion--to suggest that non-smokers are selfish for wanting smoking banned from restaurants. 
I'm trying to decide whether to weigh in by writing a letter of my own.
