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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/23/2008 10:51:17 PM
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DenimDiva
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From: Concord, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emawyer
Be careful what you ask for, you just might get more laws than you want.
Yup!
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/23/2008 10:58:32 PM
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emawyer
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I almost forgot. Trans Fat. We can't forget about that. Read the signs, Read the law, Read bills being passed, and you just might find that old saying true, "Freedom is not Free"
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/23/2008 11:13:36 PM
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MyCatSmokey2006
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There's a thread in the Current Events folder that has more information and discussion on the Massachutes law banning restaurants from serving obese people. Here is the link.
< Message edited by MyCatSmokey2006 -- 2/23/2008 11:24:07 PM >
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 12:28:21 PM
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everjoyful
Posts: 175
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I am in the uk and smoking in public buildings became illegal last july. I was a smoker for ten years and have to say that i would never have smoked around non smokers, even in smoky clubs i would rather have gone outisde to smoke.
Before the ban there were loads of places to go that were smoke free. however i had a job in a very smoky place and i needed the job so i had no choice at the time. The non smoking laws will be protecting people in that position.
I have been a non smoker for three years now. . My son has cystic fibrosis which is sometimes referred to as a terminal lung disease so its great to know that second hand smoke is not in his future.
It's really great that non smokers can go wherever they like now but to be honest here they had a few choices already in the uk , the ban really benefits the health of employees in businesses that still allowed smoking. Everyone moaned when the ban came in but they are getting used to it now and figures show the number of smokers is gradually dropping.
I too have had relatives die as a result of smoking and as children- myself and my cousins all had breathing difficulties as everyone in the family smoked heavily.
Smokers do indeed have rights smoking at home and in their car or in open areas but if it's damaging to other peoples health it's not right to give them no choice but to breath your smoke.
having said that i do think that it should be possible to apply for a license to have a smoking premesis. provided a similar non smoking premesis is available locally and the business shows clearly that it is a smoking area.......
but guys come on give up already you are gaining nothing and potentially losing everything through this. having a smoke is tasty and calming but it's only calming the stress it created in the first place -through addiction  .
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john 14 v27...do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 1:29:20 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 5314
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quote:
I feel that it's a person's individual right to choose where and when to smoke So Joe Blogs has every right to smoke in the restaurant where I happen to be eating a meal... I have no choice not to smoke.
I can control my asthma pretty well under nearly every circumstance ~ except when it come to the fumes that come off cigarettes, cigars and pipes etc. Then I'm really bad ~ and I'm bad for 24 hours.
quote:
If anyone doesn't like cigarette smoke, they can choose not to visit me or they can smoke outside. If someone doesn't like smoking, they'd hardly be smoking outside.
One of my aunts has just died after an operation for throat cancer ~ caused by smoking. Another aunt is seriously ill with lung cancer ~ caused by, guess what, smoking.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
There's a thread in the Current Events folder that has more information and discussion on the Massachutes law banning restaurants from serving obese people. Here is the link.
As I recall it's all just a publicity stunt.
quote:
I am in the uk and smoking in public buildings became illegal last july. Me too!
quote:
but guys come on give up already you are gaining nothing and potentially losing everything through this. having a smoke is tasty and calming but it's only calming the stress it created in the first place -through addiction . I find it bizzare that I've been criticised by people for taking medication for bipolar by people who are addicted to smoking.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 2:29:07 PM
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EverLearning
Posts: 1871
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
So Joe Blogs has every right to smoke in the restaurant where I happen to be eating a meal... I have no choice not to smoke.
You do in fact have the choice not to smoke. You can go to an establishment that doesn't allow smoking and on your way out of the one that does allow smoking tell the manager why you are leaving and when you get to the one that doesn't allow smoking tell that manager why you chose that restaurant. Your money is a powerful motivator, use it.
_____________________________
Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Engineers believe that "if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
features yet
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 3:51:26 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 6940
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
http://www.chow.com/grinder/4760
That's interesting. Is this verifiable?
I'm curious. Those of you who live where there's not a gov't ban on smoking in any public place, what is the ratio of smoke-free restaurants to smoking restaurants? Must you eat where there are smokers?
I live in a city without a smoking ban. There are probably a dozen restaurants out of several hundred that are smoke-free. I can only think of one or two that have a separate room with a separate ventilation systems for smokers. The rest have a "smoking section," but the smoke drifts over all the other sections. What would stop it? Or they allow smoking at the bar only, but again, the smoke drifts all over the whole restaurant.
There is a proposed smoking ban that will be voted on in May. Another, stricter one was voted down two years ago. I understand the freedom thing, but I kind of hope it will pass this time. 
Thanks for answering my question. I received some information yesterday that caused me to ask it.
That's VERY different than it is here and I honestly didn't realize that there were such differences regionally.
Here, 90% of restaurants are VOLUNTARILY smoke-free. The only places that allow smoking are those with bars and they are *usually* in an enclosed area away from other diners. Anyone who doesn't wish to smell other's smoke has hundreds and hundreds of choices of places to eat. That's not just in my town or county but this whole region.
Again, making their establishments smoke-free is voluntary on the owners' part.
However, if that's not how it is in your (anyone's) neck of the woods, then I certainly understand where many of you are coming from. I'm not sure of the why of the differences regionally and I'd very much rather let the market solve the problem as has been mentioned by several posters than let the gov't take more control. But I do understand how many of you feel.
Thanks again, Stellaluna. 
And, just in case y'all are still fuzzy on where I stand....I'm not FOR smoking. I'm AGAINST gov't control. 
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 5:28:04 PM
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everythingat
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Here's another story for you, Coeurdeleon.
I live in an area without a smoking ban. There was a smoking ban that was actually implemented a little over a year ago. It only lasted for a few months before it was overturned. It was exactly the opposite here, when the ban was put into action, the restaurants and other places lost a lot of business. Smokers were choosing to go to places right outside of the city where they knew they could smoke in peace. The non-smokers were in the minority, and money was the root of what caused it to be overturned.
My opinion is simple. If you don't like the smoke, don't eat there. Don't attend that place. There are a lot of restaurants in my area that choose to not allow smoking. I'm a smoker. You know what I do when I walk into a restaurant that doesn't allow smoking? I leave and eat somewhere else. If I can choose to do that, why can't non-smokers?
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 6:08:03 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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We get people who have incurred smoking-related diseases- lung, mouth, and throat cancer, heart disease, arteriosclerosis, etc.,- who loose their jobs because their illnesses keep them from working. Then they come down and try to apply for welfare to foot their medical bills and treatments, and complain how unfair the system is when they are turned down and advised to apply for social security disability income(it takes an average of 2 yrs from date of application to approval of ssi/ss disability income). If you choose to smoke, how about signing a waiver that you won't ask me and other taxpayers to foot your medical bills when the consequences of your addiction catch up with you?
Several of the hospitals in Nashville have banned smoking on their property. There was a big write-up on it and several of the smokers complained, including one who was photographed smoking right in front of the hospital's critical care unit air intake panels, with a "No Smoking in This Area" sign visible behind her. For those of you who don't know, people in the critical care unit require absolutely pure air as they are in very dire medical conditions. Tell me why a hospital staffer would knowingly smoke in front of any air intake panel, let alone one for the very sickest patients? I hope the hospital administration saw the photo and fired her ignorant, inconsiderate self to set an example for others.
I do not smoke, never have, do not allow anyone to smoke in my home, my car, or anywhere near my children or grandchildren. My husband and I are thinking about purchasing a few rental properties, and if we do, we will not allow smokers as tenants, and no smoking will be allowed on the premises by tenants' visitors, either.
For those who do smoke, consider how much money you waste. With cigarettes costing an average of $3.50/pack, calculate how much you spend per day, week, month, and year. Then think of the more profitable things you COULD be doing with that money. One of my clients complained how they didn't have enough money to feed their kids(boyfriend worked f/t, she stayed home, all three kids were in school) or buy them enough clothes, shoes, or school supplies. From the reek of her I knew she was a heavy smoker, and asked how many packs a day she smoked. She admitted 2-1/2 to 3, and her boyfriend smoked about the same. So I calculated how much they were spending on cigarettes, 5-6 packs per day. It came to $17.50-$21 per day, $122.50-$147 per week, $526.75-$632.10(weekly expense multiplied by 4.3 weeks/month), $6370-$7644 per year, more than enough to buy the food, clothes, and school supplies their children needed. When I pointed this out to her, she snapped, "So I guess you'll tell me I shouldn't buy beer either!" I simply told her that I wasn't telling her to not buy cigarettes or beer, but that perhaps she should take care of her children's needs first, then buy her cigs or beer with any excess income.
Oh yeah, all 3 of her children have asthma, chronic bronchitis, frequent ear infections, and are considered underweight and of smaller stature then the average child their age, tho whether the weight/height inferiority is from the heavy cigarette smoke or the fact that the parents opt to buy cigarettes and beer over buying their children food is unknown.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 6:11:51 PM
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rnershigh
Posts: 1796
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: DC metro area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
We get people who have incurred smoking-related diseases- lung, mouth, and throat cancer, heart disease, arteriosclerosis, etc.,- who loose their jobs because their illnesses keep them from working. Then they come down and try to apply for welfare to foot their medical bills and treatments, and complain how unfair the system is when they are turned down and advised to apply for social security disability income(it takes an average of 2 yrs from date of application to approval of ssi/ss disability income). If you choose to smoke, how about signing a waiver that you won't ask me and other taxpayers to foot your medical bills when the consequences of your addiction catch up with you?
Several of the hospitals in Nashville have banned smoking on their property. There was a big write-up on it and several of the smokers complained, including one who was photographed smoking right in front of the hospital's critical care unit air intake panels, with a "No Smoking in This Area" sign visible behind her. For those of you who don't know, people in the critical care unit require absolutely pure air as they are in very dire medical conditions. Tell me why a hospital staffer would knowingly smoke in front of any air intake panel, let alone one for the very sickest patients? I hope the hospital administration saw the photo and fired her ignorant, inconsiderate self to set an example for others.
I do not smoke, never have, do not allow anyone to smoke in my home, my car, or anywhere near my children or grandchildren. My husband and I are thinking about purchasing a few rental properties, and if we do, we will not allow smokers as tenants, and no smoking will be allowed on the premises by tenants' visitors, either.
For those who do smoke, consider how much money you waste. With cigarettes costing an average of $3.50/pack, calculate how much you spend per day, week, month, and year. Then think of the more profitable things you COULD be doing with that money. One of my clients complained how they didn't have enough money to feed their kids(boyfriend worked f/t, she stayed home, all three kids were in school) or buy them enough clothes, shoes, or school supplies. From the reek of her I knew she was a heavy smoker, and asked how many packs a day she smoked. She admitted 2-1/2 to 3, and her boyfriend smoked about the same. So I calculated how much they were spending on cigarettes, 5-6 packs per day. It came to $17.50-$21 per day, $122.50-$147 per week, $526.75-$632.10(weekly expense multiplied by 4.3 weeks/month), $6370-$7644 per year, more than enough to buy the food, clothes, and school supplies their children needed. When I pointed this out to her, she snapped, "So I guess you'll tell me I shouldn't buy beer either!" I simply told her that I wasn't telling her to not buy cigarettes or beer, but that perhaps she should take care of her children's needs first, then buy her cigs or beer with any excess income.
Oh yeah, all 3 of her children have asthma, chronic bronchitis, frequent ear infections, and are considered underweight and of smaller stature then the average child their age, tho whether the weight/height inferiority is from the heavy cigarette smoke or the fact that the parents opt to buy cigarettes and beer over buying their children food is unknown.
 Great post.
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O Death! where is thy Sting?
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 6:31:06 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 5314
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EverLearning
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
So Joe Blogs has every right to smoke in the restaurant where I happen to be eating a meal... I have no choice not to smoke.
You do in fact have the choice not to smoke. You can go to an establishment that doesn't allow smoking and on your way out of the one that does allow smoking tell the manager why you are leaving and when you get to the one that doesn't allow smoking tell that manager why you chose that restaurant. Your money is a powerful motivator, use it.
Problem is, many places would still allow people to smoke if there was no legislation.
_____________________________
The loose cannon inside the ship is far more dangerous
than the storm that rages outside the ship.
My blog
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 7:13:40 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 6665
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
Add to that, cigarette smoke does not follow property lines. I do not allow folks to smoke in my house or in my yard, but that doesn't mean there are times I can still smell it wafting down the street... On my run this morning, I only stayed on public streets and public sidewalks. There were numerous times on my run that I had to gasp in someone else's cigarette smoke.
So you really won't be satisfied until smoking itself is banned?
I hope some day no one smokes and I can't say I'd be sad if it was banned altogether but that's not realistic and that's not what this thread is about.
Where I grew up, everywhere allowed smoking even though it was only a minority that smoked. If you didn't like smoke or had health issues, you never ate out, you never went bowling, you never got to go to various sporting events, etc. All because a few folks can't put their packs down for an hour.
Most restaurants had "smoking sections" but that was a complete joke. The entire restaurants would still be filled with smoke. If you had any type of lung issue or allergy, you simply didn't go out. If you didn't have health issues, you still had no place to go that was actually pleasant to dine - a place where you could actually breathe without coughing.
Maybe that's why I have NO issue with bans on smoking in such places. When they banned it in my area, many people complained about how hard it was going to be on businesses. People complained about the exact same stuff that you all are complaining about here. And then, businesses discovered that most people actually LOVE being able to eat without inhaling massive amounts of cigarette smoke and smokers are physically capable of not smoking a cigarette for an hour.
Look, I hate government interference folks but as I keep stating, at some point there is a place for the government (something some of you seem to not be willing to discuss and I think this is an important point and wish some would actually discuss this). You and I may disagree with where that line is drawn and you may think "the market" should intervene in such a deadly thing, but I don't. Maybe you've never watched someone close to you die of some of the horrid smoking related cancers and conditions. Maybe you or someone near and dear to you doesn't have an allergy to cigarette smoke and doesn't have asthma and such. Maybe you've never been in the position where you needed a job so bad to support your kids, that you had to take one that put your health at risk because of someone else's decision to smoke. I'm glad you haven't. But how many people have to suffer for the minority of the population who have a nasty addiction before society says enough is enough. If you want to destroy your own health, go for it, but don't expect society to bend over backwards for you to do it.
Honestly, I can't comprehend the level of selfishness that says if someone doesn't want lung diseases or health issues from my addiction, tough cookies. Find somewhere else to eat, to play, to work.
By the way, would anyone care to address any of my points in prior posts that got glossed over? What criteria do you have for where the government should intervene (I'm assuming that no one on here is an anarchist)?
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 8:21:53 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 6665
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emawyer
All these studies about second had smoke. I keep hearing about them, but have not found any. Instead of saying "Google" it, please give the site. Now I hear and saw on TV we are going to ban over weight people from Restaurants. Give me a break. The trouble is this. When you ask the government to intervene for your behalf on a personal dislike of yours, they don't stop there. They keep on going. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get more laws than you want.
I googled "studies about the dangers of second-hand smoke" and got more than 60,000 hits so I'm not sure why you're not finding any. You can also go to sites such as: cancer.org; americanheart.org, webmd.com, cancer.gov, healthnewsresearch.com; cdc.gov; surgeongeneral.gov; medicinenet.com; etc. You will also find study after study on just about every major online news outlet and many university websites that do research. I won't even begin to count websites that are devoted to just this.
And I suppose we shouldn't have laws against murder because we "might just get more laws than we want". I know that's an absurd statement, but so is the idea that we should never pass laws because someone might try to push it too far. There is a balance folks!
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 8:44:03 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2160
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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I might be the only person who thinks this way, but if you're breathing in smoke you bet you might have an issue with your body because of it. Anything foreign going in there can cause a bad result, depending on the individual (plus it's not like smoke is inherently healthy...it's inherently bad for you).
That may just be my logic because of biology. My rule is, if it's not something your body makes by itself in normal amounts, if you eat, breathe, or drink it, it might harm you-- that goes for normal things and meds, etc.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 8:49:29 PM
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EverLearning
Posts: 1871
Joined: 5/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
ORIGINAL: EverLearning
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
So Joe Blogs has every right to smoke in the restaurant where I happen to be eating a meal... I have no choice not to smoke.
You do in fact have the choice not to smoke. You can go to an establishment that doesn't allow smoking and on your way out of the one that does allow smoking tell the manager why you are leaving and when you get to the one that doesn't allow smoking tell that manager why you chose that restaurant. Your money is a powerful motivator, use it.
Problem is, many places would still allow people to smoke if there was no legislation.
and rightfully so. Don't go there if you don't like people smoking. Go to the places that don't allow smoking and make sure you let the managers of these places know why you choose as you do. A business owner should have the right to run his business as he sees fit and if someone doesn't like how he does business they don't have to go there. I don't like the smell of Indian food but I would not go into an indian restaurant and then proceed to complain about it. If you know that a restaurant allows smoking don't go in there, it is that simple. Take responsibility for yourself and stop expecting government to protect you. I can't stand going to places that allow smoking and will go out of my way to avoid them but I am not so arrogant as to believe that the government should mandate all places should cater to me.
_____________________________
Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Engineers believe that "if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 9:00:49 PM
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EverLearning
Posts: 1871
Joined: 5/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Honestly, I can't comprehend the level of selfishness that says if someone doesn't want lung diseases or health issues from my addiction, tough cookies. Find somewhere else to eat, to play, to work.
And I, as a non-smoker, can't comprehend the level of selfishness if someone can't patronize places that cater to their decision to not be around smoke and allow business men to allow the other portion of the population to have a place to go. If you dont' want to be around smoke you don't have to and if you made your choices and their reasons known you will see more non-smoking places to cater to you and the smokers will still have their own places.
_____________________________
Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Engineers believe that "if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough
features yet
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 9:08:02 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 5314
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
If you know that a restaurant allows smoking don't go in there, it is that simple. And if restaurants were allowed to let their customer smoked and there were no smoke free ones, what then???
quote:
Take responsibility for yourself and stop expecting government to protect you. Ummmm... on that basis, why do we bother with a police force or the armed forces?
And on the basis that smokers have rights too ~ how would you feel about smokers lighting up during a church service? And if every employer permitted smoking, I could have problems working because I have asthma.
More than a decade ago, smoking was banned from the shopping centre in the city I used to live in. That was quite something then. Something else that shopping centre did was to request that men put t-shirts on, instead of going around in shorts in summer. Isn't that a violation of their rights?
_____________________________
The loose cannon inside the ship is far more dangerous
than the storm that rages outside the ship.
My blog
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 9:21:05 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 6665
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EverLearning
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Honestly, I can't comprehend the level of selfishness that says if someone doesn't want lung diseases or health issues from my addiction, tough cookies. Find somewhere else to eat, to play, to work.
And I, as a non-smoker, can't comprehend the level of selfishness if someone can't patronize places that cater to their decision to not be around smoke and allow business men to allow the other portion of the population to have a place to go. If you dont' want to be around smoke you don't have to and if you made your choices and their reasons known you will see more non-smoking places to cater to you and the smokers will still have their own places.
Wow. That's funny. Are you saying that there are smokers out there who physically cannot go to places because they can't go for an hour without a cigarette? Oh boy.... I know non-smokers who can't go to places, but I've never met a smoker who physically can't go to a place that is smoke-free. Maybe I'm just sheltered though... 
And it's not a preference for many, many folks. I'm glad you don't have any lung diseases, but tell the guy with asthma who literally cannot breathe in such an environment. Tell the lady who has COPD or emphysema who can't go out to eat anymore so that some guy can't wait 30 minutes to go smoke in his car away from the general public after a meal, that they are selfish. Tell the parent of the young child that doesn't want her child around someone else's carcinogens that they can't go to the fair because the chain smoker down the street doesn't give a rip how much they pollute the air. Tell that to the family of the young women who recently died from an asthma attack brought on directly by her customers smoking.
Yeah, the level of selfishness is astounding... 
Last I heard, no one ever died from not smoking a cigarette or not being around a smoker. The same can't be said of those who smoke are are forced to be around it.
So, tell me again who's selfish?
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If I haven't scared you away, join me here...
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 9:27:27 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10911
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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quote:
By the way, would anyone care to address any of my points in prior posts that got glossed over? What criteria do you have for where the government should intervene (I'm assuming that no one on here is an anarchist)? The government can intervene on government owned property.
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Dead Eye Dick Cheney
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 9:29:47 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 6665
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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So when someone beats their kids senseless, as long as it's on private property, the government should stay out?
Or, when a restaurant allows their chefs to defecate on the food in the back room, the government should stay out as long as it's private property?
_____________________________
~Kristin~
If I haven't scared you away, join me here...
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
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RE: Smokers Have Rights Too!!! - 2/24/2008 9:44:52 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 2979
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: Concord, CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
So when someone beats their kids senseless, as long as it's on private property, the government should stay out?
Or, when a restaurant allows their chefs to defecate on the food in the back room, the government should stay out as long as it's private property?
Why can't business owners decide for themselves if they want to allow smoking or not?
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This is a bit off topic, but when I went running yesterday I passed by a woman walking for exercise...while smoking! I found that incredibly ironic, I mean, it sounds to me pretty counterproductive to try to have a healthy body by walking, but at the same time inhaling a substance that is so unhealthy for the body. 
