RE: IF the rapture is scriptural,

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lecoop -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 9:28:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger That doesn't work, Ezra, because the Tribulation is not the Wrath of God quote: coop Please define and find for us, from the book of revelation, the start and finish of this time period you call "the tribulation." Are you meaning the entire 70th week? Then please outline where you see the wrath of God in the 70th week. Coop

lecoop -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 9:33:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Doorkeeper Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? At the fifth seal, the martyrs are calling for God's judgment on the Earth. If the tribulation is God's wrath, then He would already be judging the Earth. Therefore the tribulation is not God's wrath. Sorry, but I cannot follow your logic. This seal was opened about 33 AD. That is why they were told to wait. It would be about 2000 years of waiting! If we would use "the 70th week" rather than "the tribulation" it might be clearer. God's wrath is seen during the entire week. We see this here: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come The entire 70th week, which starts with the 7th seal, is His wrath. This means that all 7 of the trumpets, and all 7 of the vials are God's wrath. Coop

Dirtyl3um -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 9:34:43 PM)
lecoop, may i ask how you can completely disregard what i said in an earlier post without so much as a rebuttal, and claim to have replied? the church will be gone by the time of the "great" tribulation. the last 3.5 years, the church will have been translated. i was under the assumption that we were talking about the entire tribulation period..... 2 Thessalonians 2 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. let no man decieve you..... Jesus will come a second time, and when he comes a second time we will be "raptured" see my above post for more info do you think Jesus will come three times? or is the Bible lying when it says 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. this is when the rapture occurs... or so it seems to ME based on God's Word

lecoop -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 9:38:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 Ezra, you have stated that we are already in the state of beginning of sorrow and I would agree. But there will be another real beginning of the “beginning of sorrow” and that will be the beginning of the last week. Paul does tell us that God will send “strong delusion” upon men but Paul also tells us in 2Th 2 that it occurs after the mid point of the last week; 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. God’s wrath does not occur until the opening of the 7th seal and these events are preceded by the signs in the sun and moon referenced in Mat 24:29 and Rev 6:13 and once again these occur after the mid point of the week. Bob Sorry, Bob, but I think you are mistaken. The opening of the 7th seal is the beginning of the day of the Lord, and the 70th week. The first time the cosmic signs are seen, from Joel 2, are at the 6th seal. Joel tells us that these happen before that "day of the Lord." This tells us that the "day of the Lord," cannot be before the 6th seal, but after it. The cosmic signs Jesus mentioned, are the signs of His coming, and John did not see them, nor mention them. If he did, they would be just before chapter 19, where we see Jesus return to earth. In other words, there are two times these cosmic signs will be seen. Coop

lecoop -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 9:48:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ManimalX Ezra, I always get a smile when I see that you have joined a thread because I know you will be quashing misunderstanding and generally illuminating truth. Good job. quote: Therefore the entire seven years of the Tribulation Period are a manifestation of God's wrath. This is a point that cannot be stressed enough, and yet is misunderstood by so many. quote: The second thing that Christians should clearly understand is that the Tribulation Period is not to test the hearts of Christians This is an even more important point that many people remain ignorant of. I have never understood why some Christians think that real Christians need to go through some sort of purification or testing before they are allowed to be taken by Christ. Maybe it is some sort of guilt complex. The belief that somehow the end-time church has to be tested or purified by tribulation is just plain wrong, ignorant, and borderline blasphemous. I don't know about anyone else, but the price for my salvation has already been paid IN FULL. My faith is real, and God doesn't need to give me some wrathful final exam to insure I have the gift (true regenerating faith) that He already gave me. I don't think He forgot about giving it to me. Awesome post! Agreed!

lecoop -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 9:57:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 kountrykia...if you want to understand the gathering of the saints I suggest you read and study Mat 24 because it gives the time line of the end time events and I'm sorry to say that it does not teach an early escape from this world. Wished it did but it's not there.[:(] But you are correct that we will not suffer the wrath of God because we are gathered prior to that beginning. The whole 7 years period is not the wrath of God, only the latter part of the week is God's wrath. The Great Tribulation, which starts at mid week is the results of Satan's efforts, not God. I know this is hard for you to accept because it goes against your teaching. Now, you can do one of two things; study and learn the truth on continue in your current misunderstanding. Bob Bob, this is hard to accept, because it is just not what John tells us. Where in Revelation do we see this time you call the "great tribulation?" Of course, it is from Rev 11-16. This is John's discussion of the second half of the 70th week. We see many hints to this: the five mentions of the 3 1/2 years, the two mentions of the woman fleeing (having seen the abomination) and the whole chapter 13. Then we also see the vials of God's wrath, being poured out during this same time frame: the second half of the week! However, God will delay the first vial for some period of time. At least until the mark is set up, but probably a year or so into the second week; perhaps longer. Then he starts pouring out the vials, to "shorten" those days of great tribulation. With each vial, the beast will be slowed down, until he cannot do anything, as his whole army is sitting in the dark, gnawing their tongues for pain. Therefore, if we follow John's chronology, both God's wrath and Satan's wrath are being seen concurrently. Next, we see that God's wrath started before Satan's wrath. God's wrath starts with the 7th seal, which is the marker for the beginning of the day of the Lord, and the 70th week. Satan's wrath does not start until he is cast down, at the midpoint of the week. Coop

Dirtyl3um -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 10:05:57 PM)
thank you for not responding to my post, because Biblical proof isnt enough [:D]

TheosCentric -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 10:42:54 PM)
lecoop, The wrath starts sometime after the seventh trumpet, but before the first bowl, hence the bowls of wrath. Jesus comes for the church after the seventh trumpet, we meet him in the air, watch the "fireworks", continue the descent. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. Amen.

Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 10:49:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lecoop quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 Ezra, you have stated that we are already in the state of beginning of sorrow and I would agree. But there will be another real beginning of the “beginning of sorrow” and that will be the beginning of the last week. Paul does tell us that God will send “strong delusion” upon men but Paul also tells us in 2Th 2 that it occurs after the mid point of the last week; 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. God’s wrath does not occur until the opening of the 7th seal and these events are preceded by the signs in the sun and moon referenced in Mat 24:29 and Rev 6:13 and once again these occur after the mid point of the week. Bob Sorry, Bob, but I think you are mistaken. The opening of the 7th seal is the beginning of the day of the Lord, and the 70th week. The first time the cosmic signs are seen, from Joel 2, are at the 6th seal. Joel tells us that these happen before that "day of the Lord." This tells us that the "day of the Lord," cannot be before the 6th seal, but after it. The cosmic signs Jesus mentioned, are the signs of His coming, and John did not see them, nor mention them. If he did, they would be just before chapter 19, where we see Jesus return to earth. In other words, there are two times these cosmic signs will be seen. Coop Shalom, Coop and my other friends as well. The only way to understand the book of Revelation is to understand the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT). About 90% of Revelation is quoted from the Tanakh's prophecies! It's just WRONG to try to build some sort of eschatology strictly from the books of the B'rit Chadashah (the NT), especially the one book of Revelation! Furthermore, I'd say a meteorite shower which starts in the sixth seal and goes through the fifth trumpet would qualify as a "cosmic event," wouldn't you? Sorry, Cephyr13 (Brian). No, the seals, trumpets, and vials do NOT all tell of the same events from different perspectives. I HAVE compared them and although they have similarities enough to show a pattern, they do NOT have the same results! Therefore, they are NOT the exact same events, and frankly it is wrong to teach that they are. Oh, and chapter 19 only shows PART of Yeshua`s return to earth, particularly the rescue of Isra'el. You see, Revelation was intended to tie the prophecies of the Tanakh together. Carl Keighley, no, it is not WE who are to hide behind the doors; it is "my people" (Isra'el) who will be in hiding! Why? Because her enemies are attempting to wipe them off the map! It will be a time of attempted genocide, another "Holocaust!" However, YHVH's Messiah, Yeshua`, will arrive and rescue them in the nick of time! But Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) has to wait. He rescues all the other towns and villages of Y'hudah (Judah) first, and then He will come to Yerushalayim. That's why they are instructed to hide. There's a lot to digest and discuss from all the various posts and the various positions, but if we work together, I believe that we can find common ground and clear up some matters,...IF we are all teachable! Retrobyter

bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 10:50:00 PM)
quote: Bob, this is hard to accept, because it is just not what John tells us. Where in Revelation do we see this time you call the "great tribulation?" That’s because it not in Rev Coop…it’s in Mat, right after the desolation of the temple. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Bob

bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/25/2008 11:09:13 PM)
quote: bob, was that a serious question? if it is i cannot answer it without it sounding completely sarcastic.... the 7th trumpet is the one after the 6th Dirtyl3um You need to study the Feast of Rosh Hashanah; this will be the event of the gathering and the sounding of the shofar (7th trumpet). Jews start the celebration of the fall feasts 30 days prior to Rosh Hashanah which falls on the 1st day of the 7th month. For 30 days the shofar is blown every morning in the Synagogue to remind the people that the holy days are approaching, in order that they may prepare themselves. Their preparation consists of confessing their sins and seeking forgiveness along with a change in life if needed. The Jews earnest prayer is that their name may be written in the Book of Life. They too believe as Christians do, that Angels record all the actions and words of the people on the earth in a set of books, while another book is kept by God called the Book of Life, in which are the names of those who have eternal life with God. So, the 30 days preparation before Rosh Hashanah is to become a righteous person and have their names written in the Book of Life. On Rosh Hashanah, a series of 100 trumpet blasts are sounded for a specific reason. They announce the setting up of the eternal court, with the trumpets heralding God as the all-seeing, all-knowing Judge of the Universe. Inherent in the court proceedings, is the knowledge that this court date is only for open and shut cases, for those who are righteous and have their names in the Book of Life. All other people are a mixture of good and bad, and God in His mercy will delay their court date for a period of time to allow them to try and prepare a proper defense. The second court date is on Yom Kippur. The Christian believes the same thing as the Jew, except may not know as much detail on why Rosh Hashanah exists in God's prophetic plan. Rosh Hashanah will be fulfilled when the Messiah comes on the clouds, the dead in Christ rise to meet the Lord in the air, then those who are alive are changed in an instant in the blinking of an eye to an eternal, immortal body. All of those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life have open and shut cases and are righteous, not by their own deeds, but by the blood of the Lamb. Thus the fulfillment of Rosh Hashanah is the rapture of believers, all whose names are written in the Book of Life. The court process of Rosh Hashanah is shown in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, where the works of a believer's life will be tested by fire for the determination of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. As I said earlier, all other people of the earth are a mixture of good and bad and will be remanded over for court on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. However, between Rosh Hashanah on the 1st day of the 7th month, and Yom Kippur which falls on the 10th day of 7th month, are the Days of Awe or also known as the 10 Days of Repentance. Here is a prophetic tidbit, the fulfillment of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur will occur in a different year in the prophetic calendar. Or as we might state, the rapture of believers does not immediately precede the Second Coming. The Days of Awe correspond to the period of time that the people of the earth are tested in the Day of the Lord. God in His. mercy, allows a period of time when people can still be saved through the blood of the Lamb shed for their sins. Bob

Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/26/2008 12:49:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dirtyl3um lecoop, may i ask how you can completely disregard what i said in an earlier post without so much as a rebuttal, and claim to have replied? the church will be gone by the time of the "great" tribulation. the last 3.5 years, the church will have been translated. i was under the assumption that we were talking about the entire tribulation period..... 2 Thessalonians 2 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. let no man decieve you..... Jesus will come a second time, and when he comes a second time we will be "raptured" see my above post for more info do you think Jesus will come three times? or is the Bible lying when it says 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. this is when the rapture occurs... or so it seems to ME based on God's Word Shalom, Dirtyl3um! A couple of things: First, have you ever considered the possibility that the seven years of Dani'el's last week of the 70 weeks of years (Dan. 9) was broken in half already and half already fulfilled? Most Pretrib-Rapturists believe that the "Antichrist" (falsely so called, by the way) is the one who performs the "abomination of desolation" and "makes desolate." What if it isn't the "Antichrist" who performs the "abomination of desolation," but is ISRA'EL who acts so abominably as to make themselves desolate by rejecting Yeshua` YHVH's Messiah, His Choice for their King? Furthermore, what if it isn't the "Antichrist" who makes them desolate, but is YESHUA` (Jesus) who makes Isra'el desolate? (Matt. 23:37-39). What if it isn't the "Antichrist" who causes the sacrifices and the oblations to cease, but is YESHUA` whose DEATH causes the sacrifices and the oblations to cease because they are no longer acceptable to God? (Matt. 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45 cf. Heb. 10:16-22) Then, to cause the sacrifices and the oblations to cease IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK, would mean that the first 3 1/2 years of the last "week" of years were the 3 1/2 years of Yeshua`s public ministry! If that is true, then only 3 1/2 years of the seven remain! Retrobyter

Ezra -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/26/2008 2:54:52 AM)
quote: If that is true, then only 3 1/2 years of the seven remain! And if it is not true, then the entire 7 year period is yet future. A careful study of Daniel and Revelation will show that this interpretation is false. BTW, not only is the Rapture scriptural, but the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is clearly revealed in the New Testament.

skikat -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/26/2008 3:17:11 AM)
i end to agree with ezra to a great extent. the things stated in revelation are "to be revealed" at the apporaite time. however, as the scripture in matt:24 says, let him who readeth , understand. this is true in most cases when you study prophecy. one thing that i look at is this. GOD never leaves his church without instructions to lead them. in the first 3 chapters of revelation, the church is judged, after that , the church is never mentioned again. why? because we are gone? THE 144000 that are sealed in the trib. clearly states that it is JEWS 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of israel. you cant always have a clear statement about some things for CHRIST himself spoke in parables. but he also said, come, let us reason together. the bible doesnt say to read your bible, because the word" bible" is not found in scripture. however i hae one beside me. i have been in the ministry for 45 years and there are many questons such as cant be answered clearly. we have to do as jesus said , and study, to show ourselves approved. many people think that HE will come for us at the FEAST OF TRUMPETS". SO THERE WE HAVE ANOTHER ANGLE. HOWEVER, HE DID SAY TO COMFORT EACH OTHER WITH THESE WORDS. IT WOULD NOT BE MUCH COMFORT TO ME TO THINK I WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION AFTER GIVING him MY BEST ALL OF THESE YEARS. god JUDGES SIN , NOT CHRISTIANS, EXCEPT FOR THIER REWARDS. BE BLESSED- SKI--PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS, MY KEYBOARD ACTS UP SOMETIMES.

skikat -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/26/2008 4:44:53 AM)
also, please forgive the small g on GOD as i would never do that willingly.-ski-

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/26/2008 6:08:41 PM)
quote: Carl Keighley, no, it is not WE who are to hide behind the doors; it is "my people" (Isra'el) who will be in hiding! Why? Because her enemies are attempting to wipe them off the map! It will be a time of attempted genocide, another "Holocaust!" However, YHVH's Messiah, Yeshua`, will arrive and rescue them in the nick of time! But Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) has to wait. He rescues all the other towns and villages of Y'hudah (Judah) first, and then He will come to Yerushalayim. That's why they are instructed to hide. Thanks for the clarification Retro. But, just for the record it wasn't me who made that statement. I was just questioning it.

bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/26/2008 7:18:35 PM)
Carl...you changed your handle brother...I didn't know who you were for a while. Bob

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/26/2008 7:28:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 Carl...you changed your handle brother...I didn't know who you were for a while. Bob My wife has been after me to change it (as if anyone can't find out who you are.) lol. I finally figured out how to do it. In another thread I was told they would recognize me whatever I called myself. lol. Am I that obvious? lol.

bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/26/2008 10:26:56 PM)
Your light shine through the darkness Carl...don't worry.[8D] Bob

Acquitted -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/28/2008 1:13:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 quote: Bob, this is hard to accept, because it is just not what John tells us. Where in Revelation do we see this time you call the "great tribulation?" That’s because it not in Rev Coop…it’s in Mat, right after the desolation of the temple. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Bob It's obvious he's talking to the Jews here, not the church. The Jews rejected Christ and will go through the tribulation, not the church. We also have to look at when he says 2 will be in the fields, and one will be taken and the other left etc. In the great tribulation, the believer and unbeliever will not be able to cohabitate. They either have the mark or they don't and they will not be together. One more verse that wasn't mentioned is Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. This is the second coming when He actually touches down upon the earth. When Jesus returns, He will have all the saints with thee. The only way this is possible is if He has already gathered them up. As Paul said, it is a mystery and we are to prepare ourselves for it as a bride for the groom. No one can tell when it will happen, but it's clear it won't be post trib as we will be with Him when He returns.

bob97 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/28/2008 2:12:32 PM)
Hi Acquitted...I'm not really in disagreement with you, yes he is talking to the Jews for the most part. Where we do disagree is the word tribulation...the Church will go through tribulation with the Jews but the Church will not go through the Wrath of God of which unsaved Jews will face. The tribulation is not equated with God's wrath. The tribulation is created by Satan from the middle of the week, up until the occurrences of God's wrath towards the end of the week. And yes Zec 14:4 refers to the second coming. And yes the Church is not present at the second coming...no problem here. The Church is gathered though in Mat 24:31 just before the 7th seal and the Day of the Lord. Please refer to post 86 where I detain this event. Bob

Acquitted -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (3/28/2008 3:30:09 PM)
Bob, If I take scripture at it's word, then I believe that the tribulation is the beginning of the 7 year period in which anti-christ signs the peace treaty with Isreal. The great tribulation, which is the wrath of God begins at the mid-point in which the anti-christ breaks the treaty and declares himself god. I do not believe we the church will be here during the wrath of God. I also don't believe we'll be here for the first half due to the parralels of jewish wedding traditions and the correlation with us being the bride. Jesus said He is going to prepare a place for us at His Fathers mansion. In Jewish tradition, a room was built as the wedding suite at the fathers home where the bride was kept for 7 days. I believe that is where we will spend the entire 7 years until we return with Jesus. I also believe that we are to look up for our redemption draw nigh. If we are looking for anti-christ to come onto the seen, then we are not looking up. He comes like a theif in the night, when we least expect. If anti-christ is on the earth and has signed that peace treaty, we now know that we have no more than 7 years at the most, or 3 1/2 if you believe we won't go through the wrath of God. It allows us to date his coming. I just listened to a really good teaching on the rapture, end times, mellenial kingdom etc. I'll have to listen again so I can referance all the scripture involved. Peace Scott

stolar1962 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/23/2008 10:54:11 AM)
all long as you mix up church and israel, you will never get a straight answer... However, REV 4-19, not one word or image relates to the church, it is all israel. Check out Daniel as well. When Christ answered the disciples questions in Matt, He was speaking from a Jewish perspective. Technically, the Gospels were still under Old Testament administration. The Church did not start until the day of Pentecost, after the resurrection. Asking a question like this is like asking for a verse that explicitly states the doctrine of the trinity, or one of a dozen other doctrines that you will not find by mentioned by name in the Bible, but that does not invalidate their legitimacy.

PromiseLander -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/23/2008 11:05:25 AM)
Quite simply... 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God did not appoint us to wrath..." What is the tribulation as described in Revelation? It is the wrath of God. The Church will not be appointed to suffer the wrath of God - that's an inclusive statement - The Church will not suffer wrath neither in this life or after death. The tribulation in Revelation covers the entire planet, ergo, the Church will not be here.

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (4/23/2008 3:24:22 PM)
The tribulation isn't until the mid-point of the "week." So, the tribulation we all talk about can only be 3 1/2 years long. And it's the anti-christ system persecuting all those that won't submit. The wrath of God comes on the heels of the tribulation. Throw away those "Left-Behind" books and examine Revelation a little closer. The time-line isn't that hard to figure out if we leave the man-made doctrines out of it. Beware the "leaven" of man.

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