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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/31/2008 11:21:21 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
walter
what do you believe the consequence of such ignorance is? Is there salvation outside of Christ? Or having rejected Christ, is there still salvation?
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 4/1/2008 6:58:31 AM
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facedown
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is such salvation measurable?
i recall someone asking jesus "are only a few going to be saved?"
jesus response was about this individual (the one asking, seeking justification) that he was likely to be found outside, knocking to be let in.
i'm not certain its our business to ask such a question. rather, to incarnate our faith, to embody the hope and love of christ. and to be a servant, even unto the least of those among us.
--
your statement was along the lines that some worship the "same god", but do so in ignorance.
my question was: what is the consequence of such ignorance?
your reply was: is there salvation outside of jesus.
are you suggesting that some who are worshiping god (even though they are ignorant) are in fact not worshiping god, because in their lives there exists mystery? what does this say about trinitarian thoughts? that one may worship one 'person' of god, and find themselves somehow "cut off" from one ore more other 'persons'? i don't believe you can suggest such a thing.
so, what then shall we say? either they a) are not in fact worhsiping any person or revelation of god. or b) they are in fact responding to god's revelation made known to them. and a b.1 might then be: we don't necessarily have it all together.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 4/1/2008 11:04:32 PM
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walterquez
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Dear facedown, you answer questions with questions. I don't see how we can carry a conversation like this.
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St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 4/3/2008 6:40:27 AM
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facedown
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walter
you are so interesting. here - lets look at the dialogue thus far:
facedown: what do you believe the consequence of such ignorance is?
walter: Is there salvation outside of Christ? Or having rejected Christ, is there still salvation?
i want to pause here, to simply reflect upon your last post, for a moment:
walter: you answer questions with questions. I don't see how we can carry a conversation like this
i do hope you see the irony....
and post 77 was hardly just a grouping of "questions".
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/1/2008 4:16:40 AM
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faithfulservant_
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I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God. The bible says that "God is one."
So here is my question for a Trinitarian. If God was actually "Three Divine Persons" then how come God didn't acknowledge this in the bible? In other words, why wouldn't God just say "I am Three Divine Persons" or "I am a Trinity" or "I am Triune?"
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/1/2008 9:09:41 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God. The bible says that "God is one."
So here is my question for a Trinitarian. If God was actually "Three Divine Persons" then how come God didn't acknowledge this in the bible? In other words, why wouldn't God just say "I am Three Divine Persons" or "I am a Trinity" or "I am Triune?"
God has in fact revealed this in many places. Have you searched the Scriptures thoroughly? That's the only way you'll discover this truth. As an example, go to Matthew 28:19 and ask yourself how one name applies to three Persons. Or why three Persons are mentioned in one breath with the Father at the beginning. Are both Father and Son God? See Heb. 1:5-14. Is the Holy Spirit God? Search the Scriptures.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/1/2008 9:25:02 AM
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earthless
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*sigh*
Another Trinity thread with the old cliche "but.... the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible!!!!!"
Maybe I just need another cup of coffee.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/1/2008 11:50:03 AM
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faithfulservant_
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Ezra,
Thank you for the reply. But it didn't really answer my question. Let me give you an illustration and see if this makes sense. I have acknowledged that I am a Christian. Why? Because that is what I am. However, I don't confess this very often in the real world because I have a shy personality. Besides, I believe actions speak louder than words. But when push comes to shove, I have acknowledged it.
So wouldn't God have done likewise? Wouldn't God have acknowledged somewhere in scripture "I am Three Divine Persons?" The bible mentions the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all in one sentence, so does this mean there are "Three Divine People" living in heaven? Why wouldn't God have acknowledged this in the bible? Instead, God simply says as: "I AM WHO I AM." Doesn't it seem ironic that God makes no confessions of ever being "Three Divine People?"
< Message edited by faithfulservant1 -- 5/1/2008 6:53:03 PM >
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/1/2008 1:24:24 PM
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earthless
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faithful,
He makes the proclamation ALL over Scripture - the context for such (Trinity) is simply beyond discussion. In the sense that any Oneness type arguments cannot remain standing when their proof-texts are examined in light of Scripture.
We have a one stop thread for Trinity/Oneness discussion - a very large and useful thread that has more than covered all of the points you're making. Good points? Yes. But please do know we have an active discussion covering them, have you read it?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/1/2008 2:10:45 PM
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faithfulservant_
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earthless,
I reject the Oneness Doctrine and the Modalism Doctrine. So please do not accuse me of believing in those false doctrines and please do not associate me with those false beliefs. I am innocent. I was just trying to get some common sense answers from a Trinitarian.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/1/2008 2:14:38 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4832
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
earthless,
I reject the Oneness Doctrine and the Modalism Doctrine. So please do not accuse me of believing in those false doctrines and please do not associate me with those false beliefs. I am innocent. I was just trying to get some common sense answers from a Trinitarian.
I never accused you of anything nor associated you with them - I simply used a common example/comparison to bring about the topic if my reply.
And my post remains - have you read the Trinity/Oneness discussions we have spent a plethora of time with?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/1/2008 9:02:31 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
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quote:
Wouldn't God have acknowledged somewhere in scripture "I am Three Divine Persons?" The bible mentions the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all in one sentence, so does this mean there are "Three Divine People" living in heaven? Why wouldn't God have acknowledged this in the bible?
I believe I recommended that you search the Scriptures. Obviously you responded without doing so. Therefore I will direct you attention to what God the Son says in Isaiah 48:16,17:
"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: from the time that it was, there am I; and now (1) the Lord GOD, and (2) His Spirit, hath sent (3) Me.
Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go".
In verse 16 we have three Persons.
In verse 17 we have one God -- the LORD thy God.
Therefore the Son of God, who is also the eternal Word of God, speaks and says "from the time that it [the beginning] was, there am I. Then He says that "the Lord GOD" AND His Spirit have sent Him.
Does this not mean that God is showing Himself as three distinct Persons (but not necessarily conforming to your expectation or wording in how He does so)?
I also gave you Scriptures where the Son of God is clearly identified as God in Hebrews. That's did not seem to matter to you. Why?
And when we read of "His Spirit" there can be only one meaning -- this is God the Holy Spirit, since He is called the Comforter, which is another word for "Advocate" (John 14:16,26), and Christ is also called our Advocate (1 Jn. 2:1). Both words are translate from the Greek parakletos ("one called alongside to help").
That Christ spoke of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in one breath, yet also spoke of a singular Name (rather than names), should have been sufficient evidence in Mt. 28:19. However, for the naysayers, there is never enough evidence.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/1/2008 9:35:16 PM
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faithfulservant_
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Ezra,
I want to show you something. Here are 3 different definitions of Trinity according to my Webster's New World Dictionary (3rd College Edition).
1. Condition of being three or threefold
2. A set of three persons or things that form a unit
3. The union of the three divine persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one Godhead.
***Please look very closely at definition #3. It says "Three Divine Persons." So how can that be? That means we have 3 Gods living in heaven. Can you please explain?
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/1/2008 10:02:16 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
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quote:
***Please look very closely at definition #3. It says "Three Divine Persons." So how can that be? That means we have 3 Gods living in heaven. Can you please explain?
It does not mean we have three Gods living in Heaven. We have three distinct Persons, but one God. As to "explaining", no mortal man may "explain" God. As to affirming, and believing, all genuine Christians may do so with absolute assurance and total confidence.
This truth boggles the mind and is totally beyond human comprehension. Therefore "explaining" God is not only futile but fraught with problems and dangers. Those who have tried to explain God have simply ended up in confusion and heresy.
Just believe that three Persons are one God, and one God reveals Himself as three Divine Persons. They are all God, yet the are not three Gods, neither three "manifestations" (as the Oneness people believe). Definitely a mystery.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/1/2008 10:44:14 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
***Please look very closely at definition #3. It says "Three Divine Persons." So how can that be? That means we have 3 Gods living in heaven. Can you please explain?
It does not mean we have three Gods living in Heaven. We have three distinct Persons, but one God. As to "explaining", no mortal man may "explain" God. As to affirming, and believing, all genuine Christians may do so with absolute assurance and total confidence.
This truth boggles the mind and is totally beyond human comprehension. Therefore "explaining" God is not only futile but fraught with problems and dangers. Those who have tried to explain God have simply ended up in confusion and heresy.
Just believe that three Persons are one God, and one God reveals Himself as three Divine Persons. They are all God, yet the are not three Gods, neither three "manifestations" (as the Oneness people believe). Definitely a mystery.
One of the greatest dangers is going into scriptures with a pre determined mindset.
i have been brought up as a trinitarian accepting whatever has been fed to my mind until one fine day i started questioning the dcotrine.
i could not find satisfaction in reading the trinitarian verses in the NT. The challenge for me was that Paul based his writings on the Tanakh. So the best place to search for this was the Tanakh. i was at the edge of rejecting this doctrine till the Lord showed me Isaiah 48 after the numerous verses of scriptures
Reading the Tanakh
a) It shows ONE God
b) It shows multiple persons, beings, individuals in that ONE God
c) In some parts, it shows one person, some two, BUT max was THREE at a time....if anyone can find four...
It is indeed a great mystery beyond the comprehension of the human mind and therfore beyond the description by human language but best word would still be trinity of God.
Shalom
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/2/2008 8:46:56 PM
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faithfulservant_
Posts: 313
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God is one. ("one" should not be capitalized). Because God has 3 divisions. I believe these 3 divisions are the "image of God" found in the book of Thessalonians. (spirit, soul, body).
1. spirit = Holy Spirit
2. soul = Father
3. body = Jesus Christ
This would qualify for one of the Webster's Dictionary definition of the Trinity. (Definition #2: A set of three persons or things that form a unit).
< Message edited by faithfulservant1 -- 5/3/2008 11:59:31 AM >
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/2/2008 10:19:37 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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No...
John
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/2/2008 11:25:59 PM
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faithfulservant_
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Yes. It absolutely does qualify as a trinity under the Webster's New World Dictionary (3rd College Edition). And it is also directly from the bible........
1. Condition of being three or threefold
2. A set of three persons or things that form a unit
3. The union of the three divine persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one Godhead.
1. spirit = Holy Spirit
2. soul = Father
3. body = Jesus Christ
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 5/3/2008 2:39:22 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2659
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God. The bible says that "God is one."
So here is my question for a Trinitarian. If God was actually "Three Divine Persons" then how come God didn't acknowledge this in the bible? In other words, why wouldn't God just say "I am Three Divine Persons" or "I am a Trinity" or "I am Triune?"
Isaiah 6:9
He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.'"
God says a lot that those who aren't willing to seek won't ever hear. The Bible never says "Jesus Christ is God" in those exact words, but it declares Him to be God none-the-less.
Let me give some speculation about why God doesn't say "three divine persons". First, there's the problem that such a phrase is meaningless without further description. You yourself have been fooled into thinking that a one line description of "trinity" from the dictionary is somehow adequate to define the doctrine. That is simply foolishness! Scripture defines doctrine, not dictionaries. Furthermore, it's likely that simply saying "three divine persons" wouldn't survive the translation from Greek to other languages. There must be study of what God says about His nature to be able to understand who HE IS. God wants us to read scripture, and to study it to find out all that He has said about Himself, not just what can be summed up in one-line sound bites.
quote:
I reject the Oneness Doctrine and the Modalism Doctrine. So please do not accuse me of believing in those false doctrines and please do not associate me with those false beliefs. I am innocent. I was just trying to get some common sense answers from a Trinitarian.
What do you believe? You've been remarkably cagey about telling others what you do believe in. You've been involved in several threads where I've asked "Who do you say that the Son of Man is?" Why haven't you ever answered that question?
quote:
God is one. ("one" should not be capitalized). Because God has 3 divisions. I believe these 3 divisions are the "image of God" found in the book of Thessalonians. (spirit, soul, body).
1. spirit = Holy Spirit
2. soul = Father
3. body = Jesus Christ
This would qualify for one of the Webster's Dictionary definition of the Trinity. (Definition #2: A set of three persons or things that form a unit).
Webster's is not a theological dictionary, even if it were, dictionaries do not serve to fully define technical terms. Trying to build doctrine around the dictionary definition of the word "trinity" is like trying to build a carburetor from the entry in the Random House Unabridged Dictionary. (Which is, "a device for mixing vaporized fuel with air to produce a combustible or explosive mixture, as for an internal-combustion engine." Note that a fuel injector also fits this description, but a fuel injector is not a carburetor.)
Also note that your selected definition #2 is not a theological definition. Since the term "trinity" was coined to describe Biblical doctrine in a single word, the term has been corrupted and used by the secular world for any number of things (including the "trinity" of carrots, onions and celery). Just because the dictionary recognizes these bastarized uses, does not mean that they are applicable to Christian doctrine.
Your claims do not line up with scripture, or with statements of trinitarian doctrine like the Apostle's Creed, the Nicene Creed and others. Your claim is that Jesus Christ is the body, and the Father is the soul, apparently equating them with humanity. The problem with this is that the human soul is NOT the father of the human body. There is not father/son relationship within a single human, as there is a Father/Son relationship within the eternal God.
< Message edited by figmentPez -- 5/3/2008 2:45:59 PM >
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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