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Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 3/31/2008 5:07:37 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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First, I would like to emphasise that I think that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God. I am not denying that at all. But, I have issues with the doctrine of the trinity itself. I don't think that this doctrine does the nature of God justice.
For example, Scripture is clear that our God is not a man. However, He appears as a man. Some think that Moses and the Elders saw the Messiah when they climbed Mt. Sinai. Some think that the Man who visited Abraham was the Messiah too in some pre-incarnate form.
It doesn't add up for me. I don't like the idea of having to try to fit God into a three-sided box. What do you think?
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 3/31/2008 6:38:20 PM
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perfectWeakness129
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What about the Divine Quadrity? Father, Son, Spirit, Angel of the LORD? (jk)
The Trinity isn't so much a box to put God in, but rather a docterine that harmonizes the revelation of God as revealed in Scripture and in the Church today. Paul refers to the Trinity as we know it time and time again, not more, not less. I have wrestled with this myself, and there really is no clearity but that there are three persons seen in the Old Testament and explained in the New.
_____________________________
"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." -Mark 8:34b-35
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/1/2008 9:34:27 PM
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cognitivemagic
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The scripture also says that an angel wrestled with Jacob; then after Jacob's trial, he was christened "Israel", meaning "one who struggles with God". Whether the angel was a theophany or not, it's clear that there was a "physical" struggle.
More to the point, if God can create man, why would it be such a problem for Him to become a man?
Or, if God can create the universe, why should a lesser miracle, like the resurrection, be so hard to believe?
Are we then to circumscribe God by limited human reason? Can we really say that a "comprehended" God is anything more than an object of human imagination?
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/2/2008 4:29:19 PM
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URForgiven
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Yes, the Trinity explanation of the nature of God is "good enough", in as far as our finite minds could ever comprehend an infinite God.
We exist as a tiny speck on one planet. That one planet circles one sun. That one sun is just one of billions of suns in our galaxy, and our galaxy is but one of billions of galaxies.
...and God created it all and is in it all. Think about it. Can you truly comprehend God?
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/2/2008 4:32:01 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Can you truly comprehend God?
No, I can't. That is precisely why I do not like using a doctrine that isn't complete to explain His nature. Another reason why I dislike this doctrine is because it is a huge hindrance to explaining the nature of God to a Jew you're trying to introduce to our Master.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/2/2008 4:41:06 PM
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URForgiven
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There is no "complete" explanation of God. There cannot be. We can only deal with what God has chosen to reveal to us about His nature in His written word, and in Gods ultimate revelation of Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/2/2008 5:19:06 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
There is no "complete" explanation of God. There cannot be. We can only deal with what God has chosen to reveal to us about His nature in His written word, and in Gods ultimate revelation of Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.
Yes, and that is why I like to avoid the idea of the Trinity. I prefer to use Scripture to define His being.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/2/2008 5:33:10 PM
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URForgiven
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I should think it will be difficult to escape the idea of the Trinity if you are using Scripture to explain God. lol. We will have to agree to disagree my friend.
Peace
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/2/2008 5:40:01 PM
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perfectWeakness129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
There is no "complete" explanation of God. There cannot be. We can only deal with what God has chosen to reveal to us about His nature in His written word, and in Gods ultimate revelation of Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.
Yes, and that is why I like to avoid the idea of the Trinity. I prefer to use Scripture to define His being.
Funny, me too...
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matt 28:19
...who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood 1 Pet 1:2
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners, Is 61:1, Luke 4:18
The list goes on. The Bible teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all hold divinity of the same nature and are explicitly cited as individual personalities of the God Head. This is Pauline and Petrine 1st century theology, not Roman Catholic.
_____________________________
"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." -Mark 8:34b-35
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/2/2008 5:45:43 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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I've never contradicted that. I'm merely saying that there are manifestations of God in the Bible that are not explained by that simple idea. It isn't as simple as that and if you try to use that doctrine to explain His nature to someone who knows the Tanach well you will have difficulties.
The Apostles or our Master never said that God is explained only that way. It was man that made a doctrine saying so.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/2/2008 10:16:51 PM
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faithfulservant_
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quote:
original: iserveajew
I'm merely saying that there are manifestations of God in the Bible that are not explained by that simple idea. It was man that made a doctrine saying so.
I agree with you. There are depths and peripherals of God that has NEVER been revealed in the bible. Yet, men went ahead and decided to create their own image of God.
"Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty? They are high as the heavens, what can you do? Deeper than Sheol, what can you know?" (Job 11:7-8)
< Message edited by faithfulservant1 -- 4/3/2008 8:41:24 AM >
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/3/2008 4:23:19 PM
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perfectWeakness129
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
quote:
original: iserveajew
I'm merely saying that there are manifestations of God in the Bible that are not explained by that simple idea. It was man that made a doctrine saying so.
I agree with you. There are depths and peripherals of God that has NEVER been revealed in the bible. Yet, men went ahead and decided to create their own image of God.
"Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty? They are high as the heavens, what can you do? Deeper than Sheol, what can you know?" (Job 11:7-8)
Excellent point, both of you. The fullness of God is not explained in the doctrine of the Trinity, or in the Bible as a whole. God has much more going on than just how He interacts with us. That said, the doctrine of the Trinity is the Biblical teaching for God's communion with man and His interaction with us thoughout history as the Father, Son and Spirit. That is the fullness of the revelation. Though the revelation itself may come short of God's entierty, it is all we got. Since both Paul, Peter, the Old Testament prophets and Jesus Christ Himself teach God in three persons, Father, Son, and Spirit, this is sufficient and complete for our use in salvation as well as evangelism.
Paul was writing to Jews in Galatians, and Jesus was talking to Jews in Luke. These teachings are sufficient and necissary for full understanding of salvation wether to Gentile or Jew. It is the burden of the teacher to make clear the differnce between One Triune God and a polytheistic oligarchy of three gods.
_____________________________
"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." -Mark 8:34b-35
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/3/2008 5:24:21 PM
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faithfulservant_
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quote:
original: perfectWeakness129
Though the revelation itself may come short of God's entierty, it is all we got
The doctrine of the Trinity is not a revelation. That is very misleading. It is a man-made doctrine to explain God. It is an image of God, that is written on paper. The bible is all we need to know God and the scripture is the only revelation of God, period.
< Message edited by faithfulservant1 -- 4/3/2008 5:35:14 PM >
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/3/2008 5:38:14 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
quote:
original: perfectWeakness129
Though the revelation itself may come short of God's entierty, it is all we got
The doctrine of the Trinity is not a revelation. That is very misleading. It is a man-made doctrine to explain God. It is an image of God, that is written on paper. The bible is all we need to know God and the scripture is the only revelation of God, period.
I can agree with that. When our Master and His Apostles talked about the Father, Son, and Spirit they didn't say that He is ONLY expressed that way.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/3/2008 9:43:00 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
First, I would like to emphasise that I think that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God.
ISAJ:
It is not enough for a believer to "think" that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God. We must believe this with all our heart, because this is what God has revealed in Scripture. If we do not believe that Jesus is the great I AM, we shall die in our sins.
quote:
I am not denying that at all. But, I have issues with the doctrine of the trinity itself. I don't think that this doctrine does the nature of God justice.
That is not for us humans to judge. Since God can never be fully comprehended by mortal man, we must simply allow Scripture to teach us what God has revealed concerning Himself. And it is sufficient. Christ said to His apostles that if they have seen Him they have seen the Father. That is sufficient.
quote:
For example, Scripture is clear that our God is not a man.
As a matter of fact, the reverse is true. God the Father is a Spirit, but God the Son is a Man -- the Man Christ Jesus. He was the Word of God in the beginning, and he took both human and angelic form before His incarnation. Now our God is both the Father and the Man Christ Jesus, as well as the Holy Spirit. Christ is presently the God-Man, and will remain so for all eternity.
Furthermore, even though the Father is Spirit, He is seen as taking human form or the likeness of human form. Note carefully in Rev. 5:1,6,7):
And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne, a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals... And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain... And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne" .
It is quite evident that the Lamb is none other than Christ, but the one whose right hand holds the book is God the Father. So we must be extremely careful to avoid limiting God in any way. He appears as He chooses to appear.
quote:
However, He appears as a man. Some think that Moses and the Elders saw the Messiah when they climbed Mt. Sinai. Some think that the Man who visited Abraham was the Messiah too in some pre-incarnate form.
Whenever we read of God appearing to men, we must understand that it is God the Son who appears as a Theophany, and sometimes as the Angel of the Lord (as to Joshua and others). The reason why the Father does not appear to men is because Scripture clearly states:
"No man hath seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [revealed] Him" (John 1:18). This applies to both before and after the incarnation of the Word.
quote:
It doesn't add up for me. I don't like the idea of having to try to fit God into a three-sided box. What do you think?
What's not to add up? Scripture is very clear. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct Divine Persons, yet one God. Is that a profound mystery? Absolutely? Are you supposed to "understand" this with you limited human mind? Not at all. You and I are simply to believe it, and thank God for it.
quote:
First, I would like to emphasise that I think that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God. I am not denying that at all. But, I have issues with the doctrine of the trinity itself.
For the moment let's drop the word "Trinity". We can say "trinue Godhead" or God as Three in One. If you believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God, then there really is no issue, other than the fact that you think you are supposed to understand this.
quote:
I don't think that this doctrine does the nature of God justice.
Since it is not a man-made doctrine, it does God perfect justice to the extent that mortal man can comprehend the incomprehensible. The minute you start trying to "understand" the nature of God, you begin your trip dow then road of heretical speculation (as have done many others). Beware of Gnosticism.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/3/2008 10:19:09 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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Ezra - You say that we cannot comprehend the nature of God and then you say that we must understand that the Angel who appeared to Jacob and others was the Son of God. The FACT is that we don't know. You were right when you said that we cannot comprehend the nature of God and you should have stopped there.
It is a doctrine of man. God does not say in Scripture that He is best understood to be a Trinity. He reveals Himself in ways that are consistent with that doctrine, but it is ONLY a doctrine of man.
Don't warn me against trying to understand Him better. Keep your warnings to yourself. The things you say to me are annoying unwelcome. I'm not interested in your spiritual advice.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/4/2008 1:15:54 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1957
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
The FACT is that we don't know.
The fact is that we do know. Just read the accounts carefully in each case and you will know who the Angel of the Lord is. Jacob said "I have seen GOD face to face, and my life is preserved" (Gen. 32:30).
quote:
It is a doctrine of man. God does not say in Scripture that He is best understood to be a Trinity.
Now you are treading on dangerous ground. If the doctrine of the Trinity is a doctrine of man, then all conservative Christians are believing a lie.
On the other hand, if it is a doctrine of Scripture, then Unitarians are the ones who are believing a lie. And God does indeed say that He is best understood to be a Trinity. I will let you search out the passages for yourself.
quote:
He reveals Himself in ways that are consistent with that doctrine, but it is ONLY a doctrine of man.
There you go again. In that case all Christian doctrines are doctrines of men. Where does that leave you?
quote:
Don't warn me against trying to understand Him better. Keep your warnings to yourself. The things you say to me are annoying unwelcome. I'm not interested in your spiritual advice.
This is a public forum and the warning is for all who read my comments. If it is annoyingly unwelcome, that's a good sign. Warnings are generally annoying.
quote:
The FACT is that we don't know.
Right. That's what the Socinians, Unitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses would tell us. But Scripture and the Holy Spirit teaches otherwise.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/4/2008 2:50:15 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
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Ezra - I've had enough of you for now. I'm going to block you so I don't have to listen to you anymore.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/4/2008 11:29:06 AM
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faithfulservant_
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So your saying that the Doctrine of Trinity is not a man-made explanatin of God. Instead, it is some type of revelation from God. That theory is a bunch of nonsense.
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/4/2008 12:15:42 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
I can agree with that. When our Master and His Apostles talked about the Father, Son, and Spirit they didn't say that He is ONLY expressed that way.
can you elaborate some on the other ways that Jesus and the apostles expressed the Father,Son and Spirit?
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/4/2008 12:27:11 PM
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faithfulservant_
Posts: 332
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quote:
original: john_mark
Can you elaborate some on the other ways that Jesus and the apostles expressed the Father,Son and Spirit?
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were never revealed as a (Trinity, Three Persons, or Triune God) in the bible. That is simply not true.
< Message edited by faithfulservant1 -- 4/4/2008 12:35:08 PM >
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/4/2008 12:44:40 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 478
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were never revealed as a (Trinity, Three Persons, or Triune God) in the bible. That is simply not true.
i guess your going to have to elaborate a liitle more for me. i read in 2 cor 13
13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
i see this as three persons/personalities, a trinity. are you saying that these three spoken of in this passage are not one? i am not trying to be disrespectful to you i am just trying to understand your premise.
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/4/2008 1:40:01 PM
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bob97
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I have to ask this question...do we have any proof that Christ ever failed to existed in a separate form?
Yeshua is never called "our Father" in the New Testament although he is called "Everlasting father" in Isaiah 9:6. In the New Testament, Yeshua always appears beside the Father or with the Father. This does not compromise the dual truth that Yeshua is divine, having the nature, character, mission and capacity of God in every respect, and Yeshua is God manifested in human form. Paul constantly demonstrates this principle (Romans 1:7, 2 Thessalonians 1:1, 2:16, Philemon 1:3).
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Phm 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
We know that Christ sets at the Right Hand of God today...has he always?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/4/2008 2:19:45 PM
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faithfulservant_
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quote:
original: john_mark
I see this as three persons, a trinity. Are you saying that these three spoken of in this passage are not one?
You are creating an image of God once again. Which the bible specifically forbids and condemns. The bible NEVER says that God is ("Three Persons", "Trinity", "Triune God") as you have claimed. That is not true. How can you condemn heretics and legalists for making up stuff not in scripture, yet make up stuff about God yourself?
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one." (John 10:29-30)
< Message edited by faithfulservant1 -- 4/4/2008 6:11:50 PM >
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RE: Is the trinity doctrine good enough? - 4/4/2008 2:59:22 PM
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mariadreamer
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faithfulservant,
you are correct that the Bible does not use the word Trinity. But here is the problem with saying there is such a thing as "bible alone". There is no "bible alone", everyone interprets it according to what they have been taught. This is why God established His Church, "the dwelling place of the Spirit...". The Church unfolded the biblical doctrine of the Holy Trinity a very long time ago, struggling against the heretics that also used the scriptures to deny the Trinity, but rejected the Church Tradition. The "doctrine of man" is what you have when someone asserts his own interpretation against that which God revealed through the Church, His Body.
_____________________________
Christ is risen from the dead,
by death He has trampled down death,
and on those in the tombs bestowing life!
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