quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Well WIC is a good thing, a really good thing, of all programs to cut, I hope not that one. That is a different issue than abortion, and especially partial birth abortion. How could anyone do that? seriously? Is anyone fimilar how this procedure is done? I think BO should have to watch one. I heard a quote that went something like this. " Funny those who are pro-choice, are already born." Maybe not excactly the quote, but it makes sense.

A pregnancy with complications can be a very frightening thing. For example, if a baby has hydrocephalus, there sometimes may be no alternative to partial-birth abortion for anyone to walk away alive.

Oftentimes, a partial-birth-abortion is necessary to save the mother's life or prevent severe damage to the mother's long-term health.

I don't think any Democrat would like to see more partial-birth abortions- or any abortions for the matter. The reason that so many Democrats voted against the bill was because they were afraid it was unconstitutional. A few years before the PBA ban, the Supreme Court ruled Nebraska's ban unconstitutional because it didn't provide an exemption for the health of the mother. Democrats wanted to vote for a bill that would have provided an exemption for the mother's long-term health, which would have let the bill pass constitutional muster. Instead of passing a law that would actually help prevent this form of abortion, Congress decided to turn this into a political issue, and the powers that be decided to bring a bill that only exempted the mother's life to the floor.

Congress could have done the right thing by just passing a clean bill quickly and easily. Instead, it had to worry about the rare woman or two who would try and have this procedure to protect her long term health. As a result, we've been dragged through the whole legal process of finding out whether it's constitutional to not to prevent the two or three women every year who need the procedure for health reasons from having them, in addition to the 1000 or so who do so for other reasons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac
The "health" exception Democrats long for is nothing but a blood-thirsty wolf in sheep's clothing. "Health" has been repeatedly defined by the liberal courts to mean just about anything including clearly non-health issues like financial status.

If Democrats don't want partial-birth abortions, then who do you think does them? Abortion mills are run by Democrats. Pro-abortion PAC's give the vast majority of their donations to Democrats. Democrats run the abortion industry from in the courts, to the legislative bodies, to the slaughter houses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Julius, no, no, no. you never know the long term emotional, physical damage done, even to the woman who choose this road. God is the creator, he knows us and knits us togather in the womb. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. All of us, partial birth is terrible. I do no see how, going through the birth process, delivering the head, saves lives either. All that is left is the shoulders, and having kids, it is over by then. You know the Lord is pro-life. My girls are no angles, and anything could happen, though they love God mistakes happen, I would never sin unto the Lord or my daughters, who would carry that grief forever. And it is TOS say abortion is right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

Obama was being honest.

If you ask me right now, now that my kids are grown and out of college and have families, I can say stand on my pedestal and look down on people like Obama and say that I would never call it punishment for a 12 year old to have a cuddly little gift from God and I would have been thrilled and blessed to be a paw paw. But if I'm honest about it, if my daughter had gotten pregnant at that young age, it would NOT have been a good thing and no, honestly, I wouldn't have been thrilled. And yes, making her keep the child may very well have been looked upon as punishment. I remember pro-life conservative Christian Dan Quayle was asked if he would allow his wife to get an abortion if she got pregnant as a result of a rape. He couldn't answer the question. Things are different when you personalize them.

I'm know most of you are ardently pro-choice, but try this one time to put yourself in a parents position and realize it may not be as a no-brainer as it seems. Putting yourself in their shoes, maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't be exactly jumping for joy either if your 12 year old daughter gets pregnant out of wedlock. And those of you with young children who still want to judge and don't think it could ever happen to your precious angels, be careful.

- Julius

quote:

Putting yourself in their shoes, maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't be exactly jumping for joy either if your 12 year old daughter gets pregnant out of wedlock. And those of you with young children who still want to judge and don't think it could ever happen to your precious angels, be careful.

- Julius

quote:

Things are different when you personalize them.

quote:

I'm not trying to legitiimize Obama's "punishment" statement.

quote:

I'm just saying that he was expressing his honest feelings about what it would mean to him if one of his girls (I believe he said the oldest was nine, I was using 12 yo as an example) to get pregnant.

quote:

As repugnant as it may be to some of you who may never have walked in these shoes, I have seen cases where a baby born to a child is punishment to both the mother and child.

quote:

Again, they would love me, do their best, and it would be the right thing, but they would have to sacrifice in order to do it. Punishment.

quote:

You know what I was thinking about during that entire episode? That if her parents had "quietly" gone and gotten her an abortion, she wouldn't have had to deal with the humiliation and ostracization.

quote:

Someone once said, "The easiest things in the world to do are the things you know you'll never have to do yourself." Unless you've been in the situation of having a young daughter get pregnant, you don't really know what your and her feelings would be. Maybe you both would be thrilled, maybe not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

I'm not trying to legitiimize Obama's "punishment" statement.

Really? It sure sounds like you are.

quote:

I'm just saying that he was expressing his honest feelings about what it would mean to him if one of his girls (I believe he said the oldest was nine, I was using 12 yo as an example) to get pregnant.

Yes we understand what he means. That's why we are rather disgusted with him.

quote:

As repugnant as it may be to some of you who may never have walked in these shoes, I have seen cases where a baby born to a child is punishment to both the mother and child.

I use to work at a teen learning center. It was for unwed teenage girls who became pregnant. Believe it or not some didn't know "how" they got pregnant so I had to explain it to them. Then youngest was 11 years old.

There are alternatives to 'keeping' a baby and having a 12 year old raise it. There are alternatives that are good for both the mother and the child.

quote:

Again, they would love me, do their best, and it would be the right thing, but they would have to sacrifice in order to do it. Punishment.

Let's define those terms Punishment and Sacrifice

Sacrifice - selfless good deeds for others or a short term loss in return for a greater gain

punishment - A penalty imposed for wrongdoing

Your children if they chose to take care of you in your old age would not be "punished" rather they would be making a sacrifice.

When a girl has a baby she is not "punished" rather it's the natural consequences of her actions (having sex).

In scripture God says that baby is called a "blessing" not a "punishment from God".

How we view "human life" tells alot about us.

quote:

You know what I was thinking about during that entire episode? That if her parents had "quietly" gone and gotten her an abortion, she wouldn't have had to deal with the humiliation and ostracization.

Are you a christian? (serious honest question - I've not read enough from you to know) I am asking because it appears to me that you don't realize that "sin does not cover sin" and if the "sin" is not dealt with it more times than not leads us "deeper" into sin and farther away from God.

quote:

Someone once said, "The easiest things in the world to do are the things you know you'll never have to do yourself." Unless you've been in the situation of having a young daughter get pregnant, you don't really know what your and her feelings would be. Maybe you both would be thrilled, maybe not.

I've never seen a Christian be "thrilled" to discover their child was engaged in "sin".

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Julius, no, no, no. you never know the long term emotional, physical damage done, even to the woman who choose this road. God is the creator, he knows us and knits us togather in the womb. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. All of us, partial birth is terrible. I do no see how, going through the birth process, delivering the head, saves lives either. All that is left is the shoulders, and having kids, it is over by then. You know the Lord is pro-life. My girls are no angles, and anything could happen, though they love God mistakes happen, I would never sin unto the Lord or my daughters, who would carry that grief forever. And it is TOS say abortion is right.

Thank you for your response.
You are entitled to your opinion.

- Julius

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

I have three DD's and was a young girl once, and how does anyone really know what has happened in peoples lives? There maybe those on this forums who have made wrong choices, and there is no absolution from guilt. I know people like that, and they are grieving after many, many, years. No my three DDs have not done such a thing, but you do your best as Christian parentls , pray, then it is up to them. It could still happen, I pray not, but, like I said who knows the future, and what choices they will make. hopefully the right ones. I do know as a believer, abortion would not be an option for me to help them obtain. I was reading how King Mannesah (sp) got involved with witchcraft, and child-sacrifice, in another religon, you read in the word all the time how much of an abomination before God it was for people to burn thier children on the altar. No excuse for sin, and call what is evil good, and what is good evil.

quote:

Now, putting the "punishment" statement in CONTEXT I can see where Obama was speaking about the consequences of sin and not babies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatMack

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

Julius, no, no, no. you never know the long term emotional, physical damage done, even to the woman who choose this road. God is the creator, he knows us and knits us togather in the womb. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. All of us, partial birth is terrible. I do no see how, going through the birth process, delivering the head, saves lives either. All that is left is the shoulders, and having kids, it is over by then. You know the Lord is pro-life. My girls are no angles, and anything could happen, though they love God mistakes happen, I would never sin unto the Lord or my daughters, who would carry that grief forever. And it is TOS say abortion is right.

Thank you for your response.
You are entitled to your opinion.

- Julius

I personally don't see this opinion, but as truth. The Lord has said that we are fearfully and wonderfully made... no ifs, ands or buts about it.

--Kat

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

I have three DD's and was a young girl once, and how does anyone really know what has happened in peoples lives? There maybe those on this forums who have made wrong choices, and there is no absolution from guilt. I know people like that, and they are grieving after many, many, years. No my three DDs have not done such a thing, but you do your best as Christian parentls , pray, then it is up to them. It could still happen, I pray not, but, like I said who knows the future, and what choices they will make. hopefully the right ones. I do know as a believer, abortion would not be an option for me to help them obtain. I was reading how King Mannesah (sp) got involved with witchcraft, and child-sacrifice, in another religon, you read in the word all the time how much of an abomination before God it was for people to burn thier children on the altar. No excuse for sin, and call what is evil good, and what is good evil.

I know we've had our differences, but that was a real nice heartfelt post. I'm not defending Obama or his statement, although some people think I am. I believe that some people aren't really convinced you're a pro-life Christian (which I am), unless you're able to spew venomous hate filled epithets about anyone who isn't as passionate about this issue as they are.

I think there are some who think total passion for and committment to the pro-life movement requires only one thing: vote republican. We have no obligation to try to change people's minds. It's up to the politicians we elect to appoint judges we hope will overturn Roe v. Wade.

All I'm trying to say is, that the way Obama feels is the way a lot of people feel and now, what are we as Christians going to do about it besides spew venom at them and express our disgust? I think we need to acknowledge that it may be a no-brainer for some, for others, it's a tough decision. You mentioned two things. First you wrote: "There maybe those on this forums who have made wrong choices, and there is no absolution from guilt. I know people like that, and they are grieving after many, many, years." It's important that we tell people who are struggling with this decision that while the future may be tough with the child, the guilt they will hold will last forever. That sounds a lot better than expressing one's "disgust" calling them "baby slaughterers", showing them gory pictures or offering detailed graphic descriptions of "sucking the brains out" of babies, and questioning their Christianity for even thinking such a thing. That's why they don't even come to us for advice.

Then you wrote: "...you do your best as Christian parents , pray, then it is up to them. It could still happen, I pray not, but, like I said who knows the future, and what choices they will make. hopefully the right ones..."

I think there are some people that assume that all pro-choicers are just blood-thirsty murderers who hate babies. I think some just don't know any better and need someone to tell them and pray for them. I think a lot of people struggle mightily with that decision, and if they had someone to come to them in love beforehand, maybe we could sway them in the right direction.

- Julius

quote:

Nobody thinks that to be fully committed to the "pro-life movement requires only one thing: vote Republican." That's a purposeful distortion, with no basis in fact.

quote:

Thank God MLK didn't wring his hands waiting around for people's hearts and minds to change. If he had you might find yourself having to sit on the back of the bus. Instead, he led a movement to change the laws because justice should not wait for the oppressor to give up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

quote:

Nobody thinks that to be fully committed to the "pro-life movement requires only one thing: vote Republican." That's a purposeful distortion, with no basis in fact.

Okay. Then prove me wrong. What else are you doing besides writing "sucking the brains out of babies" posts?

quote:

Thank God MLK didn't wring his hands waiting around for people's hearts and minds to change. If he had you might find yourself having to sit on the back of the bus. Instead, he led a movement to change the laws because justice should not wait for the oppressor to give up.

Alright. Who's the MLK of the pro-life "movement"? McCain? Bush? You know, I'm glad black folks did have MLK to lead the Civil Rights movement, cause if we had the people we have now "leading" the pro-life "movement", all we'd have is rhetoric and finger pointing.

Oh yeah, I'm not responding to anymore of your posts. It's obvious you don't care about anybody else's feelings and your goal is not to discuss anything but to pick a fight.

- Julius

quote:

I think there are some people that assume that all pro-choicers are just blood-thirsty murderers who hate babies. I think some just don't know any better and need someone to tell them and pray for them. I think a lot of people struggle mightily with that decision, and if they had someone to come to them in love beforehand, maybe we could sway them in the right direction.

- Julius

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201
Oh yeah, I'm not responding to anymore of your posts. It's obvious you don't care about anybody else's feelings and your goal is not to discuss anything but to pick a fight.

- Julius

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

What if slavery was legalized again. Do you believe your view would be as passive as it in for the unborn? You know alot of people probably struggled with that issue as well and could not figure out how they would survive and feed their family without slaves. Some probably showed pictures of slaves being beaten or murdered with blood and guts. Some probably felt that taking away their slaves was "punishment".

quote:

I can only speak here for what I and my friends are doing. We work both to help people know the truth AND help change the laws inorder to protect the innocent. I think God calls for us to be active in our world.