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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/12/2008 9:33:11 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1178
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blackcaptnharlock,
quote:
Music is supposed to be Music, the problem I have with too many Christian rappers is that they PREACH through out their music, that's not MUSIC, that's PREACHING.
But, the secular rappers preach too! It's always about how great THEY are. Ugh! How much money they have, how many women they can bed, the list goes on.
I used to think Christian hiphop/rap was funny, but, There is a lot of corny secular music too. Kanye West's music is patently lame, Eminems stuff is ridiculous and they both cannot rap. . . I could go on and on. There are countless chart-topping secular artists who produce some of the most meaningless talentless drivel imaginable. I agree there is some very lame Christian-contemporary music out there, with weak artists who cannot sing--but I would be remiss to make that the domain of Christians music only. There is SO much lame contemporary secular, Top 40, rap and rock music out there that is is laughable. Sometimes, I think christian music gets a bad reputation, simply because it's christians. I remember as a kid thinking any kind of Christian music was lame--not because of the style, talent, or genre of the music--but simply because it was Christian.
Christian music is not popular.
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/12/2008 10:27:41 PM
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relady
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Who's "we?" America as a general whole.
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/13/2008 10:39:56 PM
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DethWolf
Posts: 51
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From: Upper Darby, PA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
By all means, we should seek out music that is "not bad" or stays "clean". We should seek to listen to music that is "inoffensive" and does not threaten are moral well-being.
Ewww...you just got spit out of God's mouth.
Y'know, if God is who He is said to be and is all loving as I've been led to believe, why would He do such a thing just based on your taste in music? Is it some kind of stipulation upon becomming a Christian that you have to re-align your musical preferences with God's? How does anyone know what God's musical preference is anyway?I saw someone say at these forums once that God's favorite music is southern gospel. For all we know, God could have been pogoing at every single Ramones concert that ever took place.
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/14/2008 8:40:43 AM
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Sun_Tzu
Posts: 44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
There is SO much lame contemporary secular, Top 40, rap and rock music out there that is is laughable. Sometimes, I think christian music gets a bad reputation, simply because it's christians. I remember as a kid thinking any kind of Christian music was lame--not because of the style, talent, or genre of the music--but simply because it was Christian.
Christian music is not popular.
Well to say that there is as much lame "secular" music as there is Christian isn't exactly a fair statement. The chrisitian music industry is much smaller and when a large portion of it is lacking creativity you can't really compare that to the secular industry. The secular side is huge by comparison so by trying to compare the two purely in that sense doesn't really work. Now if you were to say secular mainstream, then yes I would agree.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
Christian music is not popular.
Well of course it isn't, it only caters to specific listeners. The christian music industry singles itself out by targetting a small select group.
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/14/2008 1:43:02 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1012
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DethWolf
quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
By all means, we should seek out music that is "not bad" or stays "clean". We should seek to listen to music that is "inoffensive" and does not threaten are moral well-being.
Ewww...you just got spit out of God's mouth.
Y'know, if God is who He is said to be and is all loving as I've been led to believe, why would He do such a thing just based on your taste in music? Is it some kind of stipulation upon becomming a Christian that you have to re-align your musical preferences with God's? How does anyone know what God's musical preference is anyway?I saw someone say at these forums once that God's favorite music is southern gospel. For all we know, God could have been pogoing at every single Ramones concert that ever took place.
I think it is more that NealMorseFan spit him out not God. I don't think being so presumptuous (or proud) to claim to know God's thoughts is actually very Biblical in nature either.
If you ask many Christian artists who influenced their sound many a Christian jaw would be dropped.  The answer may be a secular band!
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/14/2008 3:21:45 PM
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Technophile
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i dont think there is anything wrong with listening to secular music. personally, i believe it is ok to be in the world, but not of the world. meaning, exposure to worldly/secular things is ok, as long as you are not absorbed by them and distance yourself from god in your actions or thoughts.
as for myself, i am 26 and i like to keep it clean. on my ~45min drive to work i used to listen to a radio station with alternative rock. the radio show was entertaining, but the music finally drove me to find another station. too much of the music was talking about things i did not appreciate, such as sex (promiscuous), language, drugs, among other things. some of the music was ok on that station, but some was terrible. i didnt want to hear it anymore.
so i found a classic rock station, and in my opinion the classic rock they play is much cleaner, and i appreciate that (and it sounds better too!).
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/14/2008 5:47:26 PM
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Sun_Tzu
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I am fairly sure he was talking about the music specifically, not the lyrical content.
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/14/2008 5:58:33 PM
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RatherDashing
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I know in which content he was referring to.
That doesn't take away from the fact that Christ can inspire you musically.
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/14/2008 6:45:49 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1178
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From: Midwest USA
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quote:
The chrisitian music industry is much smaller and when a large portion of it is lacking creativity you can't really compare that to the secular industry.
On a ratio, I'd say they are probably the same. In fact, I'd say secular music has more lame stuff than Christian music, because at least christian music is glorifying God. I think what we're really saying, is that we're more accustomed to secular music and it's subject-matter really satisfies "the flesh." It's easier to do wrong than to do right. I suppose, its easier to listen and like wrong, than too.
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/14/2008 8:30:23 PM
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Sun_Tzu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
On a ratio, I'd say they are probably the same.
What are you basing this off of? And what exactly kind of "ratio" are you deriving this information?
quote:
In fact, I'd say secular music has more lame stuff than Christian music, because at least christian music is glorifying God.
Yeah because using the same biblical verses or rehashed themes over and over again for music just screams creativity.
There are infinite ways to worship God and the Christian music industry has seemingly mastered beating one form to death and resurrecting it so they can do it again.
quote:
I think what we're really saying, is that we're more accustomed to secular music and it's subject-matter really satisfies "the flesh." It's easier to do wrong than to do right. I suppose, its easier to listen and like wrong, than too.
No that isn't what is being said at all. In fact, I don't think anyone here has defended listening to music that contradicts the Bible if the song is advocating the rebellion. I say that because there is a difference between singing about a "sin" then advocating it. One can sing about an experience and the lesson learned from it and not condone the action.
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/15/2008 8:09:22 AM
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BlindLemon5103
Posts: 253
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quote:
One can sing about an experience and the lesson learned from it and not condone the action.
My sentiments exactly!
Some songs are descriptive, but not necessarily prescriptive.
quote:
think what we're really saying, is that we're more accustomed to secular music and it's subject-matter really satisfies "the flesh." It's easier to do wrong than to do right. I suppose, its easier to listen and like wrong, than too.
Is enjoying something for the sake of enjoying it, pleasure for the sake of pleasure always wrong? Are we not able to enjoy a piece of music on it's own merits, music as music, art for art's sake? (I hope that makes sense!) We were given the capacity to enjoy and appreciate music.
Yes, it's easier to please our flesh than feed our spirit, but flesh-feeding goes on all day. For instance, when I watch TV, it's flesh-feeding. When I eat pizza, it's flesh-feeding (food that tastes great, can be legally enjoyed periodically but is not necessarily good for you - perhaps this is what much secular music is "junk food" - not wrong, but not something to make a steady diet of...).
I still insist that all music, even Christian music, appeals to the flesh at some level. If not, no one would listen to it. I don't know of any pure 100% spiritual music, since all music is made by fallen creatures. Everything done outside the garden of Eden is imperfect. While we ideally want to set our thoughts on heavenly things, the reality is that we do live in this fallen world as fallen creatures, and yes, we can relate to secular music (and the experiences it often sings about) at some level, if we're honest.
Of course, that doesn't mean we should just listen to anything and everything! Nor should we waste inordinate amounts of time entertaining ourselves (with music or whatever)...that's the problem I run into more than anything, and that's what the Lord is dealing with me about as we speak!
Have a great day everyone, and blessings to all on the boards.
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/15/2008 9:54:32 AM
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BlindLemon5103
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" Can a Christian take part in the expressions of the surrounding culture? Yes, Christians are still part of their culture and can be expected to share the tastes of their neighbors. A Christian can enjoy, perform, and get involved in secular art forms; they need not be religious, but they are subject to God's law. Christians need to draw the line at music or any other form of entertainment that violates God's canons of morality by tempting us to sin."
Source: "Christianity & Culture: God's Double Sovereignty" by Dr. Gene Edward Veith
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/15/2008 10:05:03 AM
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BlindLemon5103
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"A Christian who believes in Christ above culture would reject secular music and try to devise a completely distinct Christian style, to which every subsequent piece of music should conform. A Christian who believes in Christ against culture would allow the world it's own music but never listen to it, developing instead a separate Christian musical style.
A Two Kingdoms approach would allow the Christian to enjoy secular music, even, for those with the God-given talent, to pursue a musical vocation. The Christian's standards for this music would be God's moral law, but also God's aesthetic laws, which were built into the created order and human nature by God himself. The Christian musician might express his or her faith artistically, but the work would be assessed not primarily by it's theology but by its aesthetic merits, which also come under God's dominion. The music, though, would not have to be explicitly religious at all - it is part of God's dominion even in its secularity."
Source: "Christianity & Culture: God's Double Sovereignty" by Dr. Gene Edward Veith
Read the entire article here: http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar26.htm
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/15/2008 1:02:01 PM
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hawknelsonismyfriend
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From: Texas
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Whoa, I think Blind Lemon gots it. For everyone who disagrees go to www.notreligion.com
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With anything, anytime, anywhere
And the half of me is all about apathy
And the other half just doesn't care...
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/15/2008 9:26:50 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1012
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
quote:
The chrisitian music industry is much smaller and when a large portion of it is lacking creativity you can't really compare that to the secular industry.
On a ratio, I'd say they are probably the same. In fact, I'd say secular music has more lame stuff than Christian music, because at least christian music is glorifying God. I think what we're really saying, is that we're more accustomed to secular music and it's subject-matter really satisfies "the flesh." It's easier to do wrong than to do right. I suppose, its easier to listen and like wrong, than too.
Excuse me but not all things of the flesh are sinful! Jesus came to us as God "in the flesh". He turned a simple meal of bread and wine into something memorable. "Do this in memory of me!" God created man and woman and "it was good". The marriage act allows us to be God's helpers in creation. It's what we do with this flesh that determines the bad or the good of it.
BTW, can't God inspire secular artists too?
_____________________________
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/15/2008 10:58:19 PM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 792
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
Since when was lousy music glorifying to God?
Well its not but I guess the thinking is "lousy music that is created to glorify God" is better than plain old lousy music.
AFAIC nothing wrong with secular music in and of itself. As far as the ratio goes, it works both ways. Because of the sheer volume of secular artists as compared to Christian ones odds there are going to be more groundbreaking secular artists than Christian ones simply because there are many more artists.
quote:
How does anyone know what God's musical preference is anyway?
Because God told me. He swore me to secrecy though, unless you cut me a hefty check ... I mean give a generous donation to my church. 
I will say this though, it is not Southern Gospel though it was one of His favorites for many years. But He's heard so much of it that He's kind of over it. He still likes it but not like He did 40 years ago.
Anyway, later.
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/16/2008 1:28:10 PM
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Terath
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlackCapnHarlock
I can honestly say, I've been listening to Contempary (sp?) Christian Music since the late 1980s and I can tell you that through my 14 years of being a faithful Christian, that CONTEMP CHRISTIAN MUSIC STINKS!!
I am a big Christian hip hop fan, and man the guys are just no where near the secular guys . . not in production not in talent. Only a handful of Christian artists get positive responses when I pay them around non Christians. Mars Ill . . . I think that's it.
Music is supposed to be Music, the problem I have with too many Christian rappers is that they PREACH through out their music, that's not MUSIC, that's PREACHING. Also I can understand in having praise and worship songs, but if your music is all about praise and worship then call it that praise and worship hip hop not real hip hop.
I just want better rhyming and better production . .. . period.
The same for Christian Rock. Too many bands either sell out and dump JESUS all together like Evanesance (sp?) or they just aren't good.
MXPX is still around and they are good, but they need to develop their sound more they are light years behind Green Day.
Relient K is doing well, and so are some other groups, but we don't have a Christian Beatles or Christian Rolling Stones or Christian Dr. Dre folks who change the industry and the way music is made.
We have too many folks who water down and steal secular trends and fall way short.
Music overall isn't good right now, but man I would love to see a Christian group the caliber of Nickelback, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Jay Z, Eminem, Swisha House, etc. . . .
GRITS is probably the only Christian group who's beats are near secular ones, everyone else is still way behind.
Some Christian emcees can rep as Magellan says, "It's 2007 whey Christian rappers sounding like Chuck D.?"
As the guys from the Shaolin Mixtape put it, "We have to be realistic it's not 1995 it's 2005 (at the time) it's not 1985, who are we trying to reach? The guy listening to G unit, the G listening to 50 Cent and this is what you are putting out?"
Some guys have gotten better, but man, CCM has a long way to go.
I find nothing wrong with secular artists a song here or there, but I'm not too big on supporting them with full cd purchases and concerts where they drink beer an curse GOD on stage.
CCM is defnitely in need of improvement, though that doesn't mean that there are no Christian artists worth listening to. I would agree, however, that they probably won't come from CCM. I was looking at the SoulFest lineup to see if I would consider going. There were a total of two bands I liked, one that I would pay to listen to. Most them would have me covering my ears. But that's just me.
Well, you do have to admit, a style that abounds in reveling in sex, drugs, violence, ghettos and the like is not the most attractive medium to an up-and-coming Christian artist. No wonder there aren't many in that genre.
Well, two things here. One, is rapping even really music? It reminds me more of open verse poetry than any music. Now don't get me wrong, I have no problem with rapping. My problem is with rap i general. Rapping has it's place, and I've heard rapping I like, but music is not the first thing that comes to mind. Second of all, is there problem with preaching through music? Granted, I would hold that preaching in music is akin to healing the healthy, but is that doesn't diqualify it from being music. I've heard Christian bands that preach, most of which are in it for the preaching and not the music. When a Christian band preaches, but they actually work to make good music to accompany the preaching, that's something that stands a chance. I even know of a few bands, Mortal Treason and Nema, that included a more worshipful song along with their music. I even like Nema's take on it, because it was both discernable and powerful, without coming off as church music, despite the name "Church Song."
These bands you're mentioning...I listen to Green Day on occasion, but to hold them up as a standard for Christian music? I recall listening to a few songs on the TV once, from their "Bullet in a Bible" tour. *heh* Minority comes to mind at the moment.
I want to be the minority
I don't need your authority
Down with the moral majority
'Cause I want to be the minority
I'd go on, but I'd probably violate TOS, in more ways than one. Anyway, is there a rule saying that Christian bands have to follow anyone else? I can think of some Christians bands that are actually BETTER than their secular counterparts. As I Lay Dying takes metalcore to its limits, almost breaching Melodic Death Metal in the style of In Flames. Underneath the Gun and With Blood Comes Cleansing beath out most deathcore, hands down. If you like the lighter side of rock, Anberlin does a good job of it.
Really? No one to define a genre? What about Stryper? These guys coined the term "Christian metal." I'm not exactly a fan of big hair, make-up and spandex, but they blazed a path through the secular bands, coming out with quite a bit of respect. As I Lay Dying was given the "Ultimate Metal Gods" title by MTV; guess they never heard of Lamb of God, but that's another issue.
Christians don't get the cred for it, but they were one of the biggest influences on death metal, period. Mortification's "Scrolls of the Megilloth" and "EnVision EnVangelene" are practically sacred doctrine for extreme metal fans.
CCM does have a long way to go. You know why? For most of them, the music is secondary. They are there first and foremost for God. Not that there's anything wrong with that mind you, but personally, most CCM doesn't cut it. Now, there are bands that aren't in CCM at all but are still Christian through and through. As I Lay Dying is currently signed to Metal Blade Records. Facedown Records is the home to Impending Doom and With Blood Comes Cleansing. I think it may have been Nuclear Blast, actually, that had a Christian president for a while, and really pushed Horde, a Christian black metal band. For those not in the know, black metal is usually where people take "satanic" from metal and spread it wholesale over all metal. That's because many black metal artists actually are satanists, usually from Northeast Europe. Horde, on the other hand, is headed by a guy from Australia, and he really pulled off a true black metal metal album that glorified God. His label promptly recieve death threats asking for his identity to be revealed so they could kill him.  What some people will do for music.
Well, whether or not a band should be listened to comes down to one thing: the message. What does the music say? Does that hurt or harm one's testimony? About supporting with purchases, that really comes down to the band. What kind of message do they themselves put out. As you mentioned with the drinking (I'll assume you mean in excess) and blasphemy, that's not exactly a great cause, no matter what their music says. Really, there's a lot of good secular music, and a lot of bad secular music. I'm lucky. I only like one genre (metal), so I only have to weed through one brand of garbage. ^_^;
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/19/2008 11:19:22 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1178
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
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I dunno. An unbeliever can be inspired by the things that God has done(nature, spouse, beauty). That's what praise is about. I'm not saying that all secular music is evil. Not at all. But since their is a wider body of secular music, simply based on the numbers there will be more lame secular stuff out there. That is not to say there isn't any lame christian stuff.
BTW, can't God inspire secular artists too?
unbelievers are cut off from God. His communications to them are, "Repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." However, God does bless everyone with talent (saved and unsaved)--and they may find their inspiration anywhere.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
quote:
The chrisitian music industry is much smaller and when a large portion of it is lacking creativity you can't really compare that to the secular industry.
On a ratio, I'd say they are probably the same. In fact, I'd say secular music has more lame stuff than Christian music, because at least christian music is glorifying God. I think what we're really saying, is that we're more accustomed to secular music and it's subject-matter really satisfies "the flesh." It's easier to do wrong than to do right. I suppose, its easier to listen and like wrong, than too.
Excuse me but not all things of the flesh are sinful! Jesus came to us as God "in the flesh". He turned a simple meal of bread and wine into something memorable. "Do this in memory of me!" God created man and woman and "it was good". The marriage act allows us to be God's helpers in creation. It's what we do with this flesh that determines the bad or the good of it.
BTW, can't God inspire secular artists too?
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/19/2008 11:21:58 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 1178
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
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OK
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sun_Tzu
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dakotasunbeam
On a ratio, I'd say they are probably the same.
What are you basing this off of? And what exactly kind of "ratio" are you deriving this information?
quote:
In fact, I'd say secular music has more lame stuff than Christian music, because at least christian music is glorifying God.
Yeah because using the same biblical verses or rehashed themes over and over again for music just screams creativity.
There are infinite ways to worship God and the Christian music industry has seemingly mastered beating one form to death and resurrecting it so they can do it again.
quote:
I think what we're really saying, is that we're more accustomed to secular music and it's subject-matter really satisfies "the flesh." It's easier to do wrong than to do right. I suppose, its easier to listen and like wrong, than too.
No that isn't what is being said at all. In fact, I don't think anyone here has defended listening to music that contradicts the Bible if the song is advocating the rebellion. I say that because there is a difference between singing about a "sin" then advocating it. One can sing about an experience and the lesson learned from it and not condone the action.
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RE: Secular Bands OK? - 4/28/2008 9:52:54 AM
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idontloveyou
Posts: 12
Joined: 4/28/2008
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I personally think contemporary Christian music is awful...I'm sorry. Everything I hear on the radio is so cookie cutter...every stinkin' song is the same! I do like bands such as BarlowGirl and Superchic[k]...but that's it. Christian music industries really need to buckle down and get some realy Christian talent. I listen to bands like My Chemical Romance and Green Day...we need Christian versions of those!
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