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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/21/2008 9:33:28 PM
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lightshineon
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agreed, what do you think is illegal though?
quote:
ORIGINAL: TomTurn
quote:
Well Tom, I usually agree with you, on nearly everything, but this. These children are forced to marry these men.
Thanks and please understand, I am not saying nothing bad and against the law did not go on in there. I am saying something in this "tip" and "investigation" and all, is not lining up.
And am asking all to not combine what is legal but you just do not like, with what is actually illegal.
A stepford wife is spooky but it is not against the law to be one.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/21/2008 9:46:52 PM
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TomTurn
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quote:
agreed, what do you think is illegal though?
Need the facts of what actually went on before I can pass any kind of real opinion.
And of course that is said knowing forced marriage of a minor is illegal.
....
Side note: Forced marriages of minors goes on all the time in islam. Will CPS be raiding any mosques anytime soon?
Just something I am thinking about as I ponder why now, why this way?
I will keep saying, something bad/illegal may have gone on but even if, something is not lining up.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 2:08:20 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
One man Something Jeffery's was put in prison for kiddie rape. His followers were outraged, screaming in and out of the courtroom.
Warren Jeffs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 8:56:45 AM
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P31W
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I am not going to judge the social workers as wrong yet. I know that if "I" had been sent onto that compound and honestly believed that young girls were being forced into having sex with anyone it would be my duty and responsibiltiy as both a social worker, citizen and chrisitan to get that child to a safe place. And if I believe the entire cult was in on the crime of rape and even promoted it I would have to take all children into protective custody.
Let's not go off the deep end just because these folks call themselves christians or dress in certain "clean cut ways".
A sex cult is a sex cult. A child sex cult is a child sex cult.
quote:
Warren Jeffs
And that child rapest is the prophet who claims to be Jesus Christ and they obey his teachings. That is who they have photo's of in the compound. A child rapest.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/22/2008 9:06:08 AM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 9:07:14 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
And if I believe the entire cult was in on the crime of rape and even promoted it I would have to take all children into protective custody.
What you believe happened and want to do and what is lawful for you to to do are two different things.
Right now one of the main facts we have is a raid carried out on a bogus tip.
Once again, not saying that something illegal with children was not going on in there. But the old saying comes to mind, "To build a disaster, start with a lie"
< Message edited by TomTurn -- 4/22/2008 9:30:59 AM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 9:23:20 AM
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P31W
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If the police get a bogus tip that "I" was being raped in my home and they raided my house only that find that "I" was not even living there but children/young teens appear to be being raped it's within their right and duty to take those children into protective custody.
I am a social worker. It is against the law for me to knowing allow a child to reamin in what I believe to be in a dangerous situation. It would be considered a "crime" for me to walk away. Later those very same children could hire a lawyer and take me to court for not doing what I would be hired by the state to do.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/22/2008 9:33:10 AM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 9:31:21 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
If the police get a bogus tip that "I" was being raped in my home and they raided my house only that find that "I" was not even living there but children/young teens appear to be being raped it's within their right and duty to take those children into protective custody.
What was the proof in this case? What did they see for proof after going in on a bogus tip?
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I am a social worker. It is against the law for me to knowing allow a child to reamin in what I believe to be in a dangerous situation.
What you believe? What if you are a nut? What if you have a bias against something that is legal (such as homeschooling)?
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 9:31:30 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I am not saying nothing bad and against the law did not go on in there. I am saying something in this "tip" and "investigation" and all, is not lining up.
To be honest with you it's not suppose to "line up" yet. And because children are involved it may never "line up" for us on the outside. What we have to do is trust them to hire lawyes who will protect their interest. The ACLU is also on the cult's side now.
As a social worker I have to do what I believe is in the best interest of the children's safety. Even if that means that later on we discover that my beliefs were wrong.
Better safe than to attend funerals of children who have systematically been raped and told by thier rapest that if they don't willingly comply they will burn in hell.
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A stepford wife is spooky but it is not against the law to be one.
Unless it is the result of abuse from birth. For me the women's lack of emotions would be yet another "proof" that abuse has been long term and very systematic on that compound.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/22/2008 9:44:16 AM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 9:41:08 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
To be honest with you it's not suppose to "line up" yet.
Yes, you are a social worker
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And because children are involved it may never "line up" for us on the outside.
Children are not protected from the authorities under the Constitution?
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What we have to do is trust them to hire lawyes who will protect their interest.
Now there is a government answer. We are gong to charge you on weak evidence, now lose everything you have to defend it.
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The ACLU is also on the cult's side now.
Do not care if the ACLU were supporting Hitler if Hitler were possibly in the right
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As a social worker I have to do what I believe is in the best interest of the children's safety. Even if that means that later on we discover that my beliefs were wrong.
Once again, what if you are a nut. What if you have a built in bias?
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Better safe than attend a funeral of have a children systamatically raped.
Do you really want me to start listing the failures of CPS, becasue I am happy to do so?
......
Something may have and most likely did go on in there.
Something is not lining up here
I do not trust CPS
< Message edited by TomTurn -- 4/22/2008 9:48:04 AM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 9:48:29 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
For me the women's lack of emotions would be yet another "proof" that abuse has been long term and very systematic on that compound.
All you have seen so far is what has been alllowed to be on TV. But lack of emotion is against the law?
What is your education in human psychology ?
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 9:53:09 AM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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The women probally grew up in that cult therefore grew up thinking that the outside world especially the authorities are evil.
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<-------- She really loves her daddy!
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 9:55:29 AM
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P31W
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quote:
What is your education in human psychology ?
I began taking psychology and social work courses when I was a senior in HS at the local college. I did get my social work degree (major) with a minor in both sociology and psychology. Then I began working on my masters in Counseling Psychology when I decided that I did not want to do that fulltime. In all I took about 7 years of pyschology courses. It's always been an interest of mine.
quote:
But lack of emotion is against the law?
It's not against the law. However to have an entire group of people lack emotions over what for most would be the worse time of their life can give us a glimpse into their mindset.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/22/2008 10:04:30 AM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 9:58:34 AM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
The women probally grew up in that cult therefore grew up thinking that the outside world especially the authorities are evil.
Yep.
I think it's common knowledge that when the compound was built near Eldorado, only the most "devout" were selected to go and live there, along with children who were young enough that they would not remember life outside the compound. (I've read that several places over the years.) If that's true, we could not expect anything different than what is happening. I am not necessarily a fan of how the government does things; HOWEVER, the very nature of the people involved in this case are hindering the investigation and until the state is satisfied, the situation will remain as it is.
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"Everything Stellaluna said (I do agree with her, honest)." -- miasma
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 10:00:20 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
If there is nothing to hide, why act as if there's something to hide?
That bothers me and know you do not mean it this way. But it harkens to to a gestapo type tactic.
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Why would a parent hinder an investigation if the parent knew that not cooperating would only guarantee their child would be taken away? They have dozens of children who keep pointing to different adults when asked who their parents are. They have adults intentionally trying to trip and injure the social workers who are trying to help them.
Using Waco as an example, "ok guys, what we have here is a "cult" who believes that an armagedon is on the way. So let's go in with many armed men and demand they give up"....."hey they are not welcoming us, lets get some tanks and even more armed people"....."hey, they are just fighting us more, don't they know we are here to help them?"
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 10:01:42 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
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quote:
the very nature of the people involved in this case are hindering the investigation
They are hindering the investigation because they know they have been involved in illegal activiy.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 10:08:28 AM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
the very nature of the people involved in this case are hindering the investigation
They are hindering the investigation because they know they have been involved in illegal activiy.
This is what I think.
TomTurn--thank you for knowing what I meant to say.  Perhaps I wasn't clear. Some years back, my SIL was accused of abuse because a little boy she babysat fell down and went home to a paranoid mother with a bruise on his arm. When CPS showed up, they stated why they were there, told her the charge against her and she opened her door wide to let them in and see that there was nothing wrong. The caseworker could quickly tell the complaint had nothing to do with child abuse and it was quickly wrapped up.
I suspect that is how most (not all, but most) complaints are handled by the state. There's a tip, they investigate, cooperation leads to quick resolve, no cooperation leads to this.
But now they have more than 400 children who, for whatever reason, cannot help them by telling them who their parents are. It's a nightmare and these FLDS members aren't doing anything to change that.
_____________________________
CW Underground
"Everything Stellaluna said (I do agree with her, honest)." -- miasma
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 10:13:22 AM
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P31W
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Pologamy is illegal. They "know" this is illegal and that is one of the reasons so many of the fathers have hit the road and why the women refuse to give their last names.
They are also more than likely involved in welfare fraud. By giving their last name that would be investigated as well.
< Message edited by P31W -- 4/22/2008 10:20:05 AM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 10:15:41 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
TomTurn--thank you for knowing what I meant to say
No problem, is just friendly conversation.
quote:
Pologamy is illegal
Being the child of a polygamist is not
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 10:17:36 AM
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P31W
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You are correct.
The children are not being held in protective custody because they have committed a crime. Rather they are views as possible victoms.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 11:16:19 AM
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TomTurn
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Man in Idaho is charged by the government with a crime about as serious as a traffic ticket. Authorities have opportunitiesy to arrest him for not paying as he goes through day to day life , but will not, they want something more. He will not play their game. Result. Authorities invade his property, lie about other charges, kill is wife, son and dog.
Authorities say they have charges against "Church members" in Texas. Have opportunities to arrest the leader as he goes through day to day life, but they will not, they want something more. They want a press shot and they get it. Church believes armagedon is at hand and for some reason will just not open the door tas two trailer loads of agents storm towards them The government returns with tanks, helicopters and various other weapons. To add insult to injury, agent charged with killing above mentioned wife is brouught in as a sniper. Result. 74 men, women and children killed.
My trust for the government in these cases is not high.
< Message edited by TomTurn -- 4/22/2008 11:26:09 AM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 11:17:49 AM
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TomTurn
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quote:
The children are not being held in protective custody because they have committed a crime. Rather they are views as possible victoms.
I see a court case evolving on the Constitutional rights of children.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/22/2008 11:20:36 AM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TomTurn
Authorities say they have charges against a "Church members" in Texas. Have opportunities to arrest the leader as he goes through day to day life, but they will not, they want something more. They want a press shot and they get it. Church believes armagedon is at hand and for some reason will just not open the door to as two trailer loads of agents storm towars them The government returns with tanks, helicopters and various other weapons. Result. 74 men, women and children killed.
Dude...they've been working this group for YEARS, waiting to get enough evidence to go in. It may seem like one phone call got the job done, but that was just the final catalyst.
_____________________________
CW Underground
"Everything Stellaluna said (I do agree with her, honest)." -- miasma
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