RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (Full Version)

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mapachito13 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 11:20:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

While I agree that there are other ways to deal with this kind of situation, it appears that in this case those other ways were tried and failed to produce any results.


I wasn't aware that the school fired him! Did they?



Jhud -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 11:20:41 AM)

quote:

I agree. Another civil lawsuit is unnecessary but he should be (in the absolute minimum) warned that these types of comments are unwelcome in a school environment and he either should be fired now or warned that he will be if it happens again.


You do realize the lawsuit isn't for money, but to compel the school to act, the very result you are suggesting?

quote:

BTW, as Christians we should EXPECT this type of treatment by the world. Jesus warned us of it in the Book of John!


As tax paying citizens and parents, a failure to act would be an abdication of our duties.

quote:

The punishment should fit the crime and I think firing the guy is enough but some people want to take away his house and money just because he said some mean things!


Did you even read the article? No one is trying to take away his 'house or money'?



Jhud -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 11:24:06 AM)

quote:

No disrespect, but everyone in this world gets their toes stepped on, no matter what their religion. We can't go crying and fuming into court everytime our sensitivities are offended. There actually are other ways to deal with such matters.


They sought other remedies; it's not like they ran to the courts imediately.

In fact, a court is a good way to deal with a state entity that is unresponsive.



benelchi -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 11:38:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

While I agree that there are other ways to deal with this kind of situation, it appears that in this case those other ways were tried and failed to produce any results.


I wasn't aware that the school fired him! Did they?



No, the school didn't fire him (or apparently even discipline him) despite this being address by parents with the school administration. The reason that this was taken to the courts was that addressing this with the school had failed to produce any kind of positive results i.e. they simply defended the teacher.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 6:00:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Yes, what is clear is that you aren't familiar with case; they went to the school, even up to the district level and they failed to act to remove the teacher.

I am familiar with the case. The reality of the case is not the same thing as my opinion about how it should be.
Are we clear now?

quote:

It's not like they are suing the guy, they are compelling the school to act - so since they are suing for the result you suggest is best, then you must agree with this course of action.

No, I am not compelled to agree at all. The school is being charged with violating the amendment clause prohibiting laws respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

What laws did the school pass?



mapachito13 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 6:27:34 PM)

Well here's another solution. Go to a different school! If you can't take the heat, stay away from the school! Or shall we sue everyone we meet in life who thinks lowly of us Christians? I couldn't afford to keep that many lawsuits going!



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 7:01:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
The reason that this was taken to the courts was that addressing this with the school had failed to produce any kind of positive results i.e. they simply defended the teacher.

Defending the teacher was a public veneer that the school apparently felt compelled to don, but there was no reason to not take a different stance behind closed doors. The kind of justice required here cannot be found in the courts. It must come from parents and even students ready to grab the situation directly with the tenacity of a pitbull, and not settle for anything less than an apology at the very least.
The humiliation of dealing with disgruntled parents and teachers would eventually force the school to save face and do what they should've done in the first place. A court case will only force them to "lawyer up" against the backdrop of the teachers' union.
What will that solve?



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 7:11:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Well here's another solution. Go to a different school! If you can't take the heat, stay away from the school!

Actually, the school shouldn't be so hot in the first place. They are in the public's service. Everyone has a right to be dissatisfied with the teacher's comments and the school's brush-off at the tax payers' expense.

quote:

Or shall we sue everyone we meet in life who thinks lowly of us Christians?

Unfortunately, the U.S. is such a very, very litigious society. The Scope's "Monkey Trial" set an unfortunate precedence for schools. There are several ways to mount a compaign for real justice here, e.g. creating a media focus out of the situation generates negative p.r. for the school that no one can ignore.

Maybe that is the purpose of this lawsuit, but I can't advocate adding one more case to an already over-choked court docket just to generate a media buzz.



mapachito13 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 7:37:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

Actually, the school shouldn't be so hot. They are in the public's service. Everyone has a right to be dissatisfied with the teacher's comments and the school's brush-off at the tax payers' expense.


No it shouldn't be that "hot" but the world is not just and definitely not fair... otherwise horses would get to ride half the time.

This kid's history teacher is not going to be the last person he'll meet in life with those views. Maybe it's a good time for him to do research on his own to rebut his teacher's claims with historical fact. He might even learn something in the process.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 8:39:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

ANY group in America can be "safely" disparaged as long as there is a thing called freedom of speech, and as long direct libel or slander to an individual doesn't occur. This happens on right wing radio and television everyday. But let a teacher open his mouth a little too wide, and-- wham! It's a lawsuit.


The airwaves are an open venue while a teacher operates from a position of authority over a somewhat captive audience of young minds who are generally told to listen and obey the teacher… Night and day...

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 8:50:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13


My point in bringing up the Book of John is to actually agree with your statement about hypersensitivity. Jesus even told us to rejoice when we are persecuted! But now we have a sense of Christian militism that we HAVE TO fight back!


We can gleam from Paul’s actions in regards to his being beat and bringing up the fact he had Roman citizenship and what they were doing was wrong that a believer can use the system to deal with problems, especially if the powers to be don’t deal with it as they should…

The teacher should be fired for a terrible abuse of his authority...

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/24/2008 8:53:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
The reason that this was taken to the courts was that addressing this with the school had failed to produce any kind of positive results i.e. they simply defended the teacher.

Defending the teacher was a public veneer that the school apparently felt compelled to don, but there was no reason to not take a different stance behind closed doors. The kind of justice required here cannot be found in the courts. It must come from parents and even students ready to grab the situation directly with the tenacity of a pitbull, and not settle for anything less than an apology at the very least.
The humiliation of dealing with disgruntled parents and teachers would eventually force the school to save face and do what they should've done in the first place. A court case will only force them to "lawyer up" against the backdrop of the teachers' union.
What will that solve?


If it drains funds from the teacher's uinon that can't be a bad thing...

John



Jhud -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/25/2008 12:40:39 AM)

quote:

I am familiar with the case. The reality of the case is not the same thing as my opinion about how it should be.
Are we clear now?


So you are talking about a hypothetical case, and not the one in the OP?

quote:

No, I am not compelled to agree at all. The school is being charged with violating the amendment clause prohibiting laws respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

What laws did the school pass?


Wow. I would love it if that were the interpretation of the 1st amendment applied to schools. By that count, a Christian teacher could share the gospel with the class, and then offer to lead anyone in prayer who wanted to get saved.



Jhud -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/25/2008 12:47:16 AM)

quote:

Well here's another solution. Go to a different school! If you can't take the heat, stay away from the school! Or shall we sue everyone we meet in life who thinks lowly of us Christians? I couldn't afford to keep that many lawsuits going!


Yeah!

Don't like being sexually, harrassed by your boss?

Get a different job!

Don't like being denied service at a restaurant because you are black?

Move to a different state!

Don't like the government keeping you from excercising your rights to to speak or worship or publish grievances?

Move to a different country!

Dude, you have solved all our problems with one post. [8|]



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/25/2008 9:39:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
So you are talking about a hypothetical case, and not the one in the OP?

No, I am comparing my opinions to the facts. We all do that on forums, you know.

quote:

Wow. I would love it if that were the interpretation of the 1st amendment applied to schools. By that count, a Christian teacher could share the gospel with the class, and then offer to lead anyone in prayer who wanted to get saved.

I don't know where you get that.
All I am saying is that the school did not forbid nor enforce anyone's religion, and that the teacher is protected by the right to free speech.

The problem with this particular case is an ethical issue, not a legal one.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/25/2008 9:56:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Yeah!
Don't like being sexually, harrassed by your boss?
Get a different job!
Don't like being denied service at a restaurant because you are black?
Move to a different state!

Bad examples. These are blatant actions perpetrated against individuals directly.
This is far different from running to court just because someone encountered an opinion that they found offensive. In that case, everyone may as well lawyer up everytime they open up the op/ed section of the paper or are within earshot of talk radio.

quote:

Don't like the government keeping you from excercising your rights to to speak or worship or publish grievances?
Move to a different country!

Neither the school nor the teacher did this.

quote:

Dude, you have solved all our problems with one post.

One thing that I will agree with: don't cut and run in the face of intolerance. We can't change everyone, but a teacher is held to certain ethics and we have a right to demand that ethical standards be upheld in our schools.

Now, this is a hypothetical:
What if (and this has happened) a history teacher was lecturing the class on how the Holocaust was a hoax? This isn't illegal, it isn't against the Constitution, but it is contrary to truth and reason. It is also very, very offensive to the legacy of Holocaust survivors.
So, what's the answer-- go to court? Even you, Jhud, probably see that true justice in this hypothetical would not be found in a court of law.



mapachito13 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/25/2008 10:06:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Well here's another solution. Go to a different school! If you can't take the heat, stay away from the school! Or shall we sue everyone we meet in life who thinks lowly of us Christians? I couldn't afford to keep that many lawsuits going!


Yeah!

Don't like being sexually, harrassed by your boss?

Get a different job!

Don't like being denied service at a restaurant because you are black?

Move to a different state!

Don't like the government keeping you from excercising your rights to to speak or worship or publish grievances?

Move to a different country!

Dude, you have solved all our problems with one post. [8|]

So you are talking about a hypothetical case, and not the one in the OP?


It's tough when your own words can be used against you!

You are covering apples and oranges. I am covering the situation in the OP. Are the kid's grades in this class suffering because he's a Christian? Or did he have his feelings hurt because he found out that Christians aren't pure and good and have done some atrocities in the name of God and he found out that this has made some people dislike his religion. It's tough for a kids when your rose colored glasses get shattered. And yes, there are some people who ignore the bad and act like Christianity has done nothing but good in the world. The wars of the Reformation had Christians slaughtering each other by the thousands in "the name of true Chritianity".

Nevertheess, the teacher shouldn't be putting down anyone's religion. He could have shared the same history without interjecting loaded words and phrases. But hey, this school district has a history of discrimination lawsuits against it. They had another one in 2005.

BTW, anyone have a link to the claim filed by this group filed on behalf of this boy. What is said in "the news" and what is in the formal legal documents could be different. when the parents say they will "consider" dropping the lawsuit if the teacher has sensitivity training and apologizes means that those things aren't all they are after. Otherwise, they would have said that they would drop it,; not "consider it".



Jhud -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/25/2008 10:57:20 AM)

quote:

You are covering apples and oranges. I am covering the situation in the OP. Are the kid's grades in this class suffering because he's a Christian? Or did he have his feelings hurt because he found out that Christians aren't pure and good and have done some atrocities in the name of God and he found out that this has made some people dislike his religion. It's tough for a kids when your rose colored glasses get shattered. And yes, there are some people who ignore the bad and act like Christianity has done nothing but good in the world. The wars of the Reformation had Christians slaughtering each other by the thousands in "the name of true Chritianity".


The language of the teacher was obviously defamatory and prejudicial, just as it would have been if he were referring to Jews that way; in fact, if he did talk about Jews that way, no one would think twice about his firing.

And my response was appropriate to your proposed ‘solution’; it was exactly the same argument that is often used against anyone who criticizes the abusive exercise of power; it’s almost never a valid solution, and always antithetical to true liberty.



mapachito13 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/25/2008 3:21:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

You are covering apples and oranges. I am covering the situation in the OP. Are the kid's grades in this class suffering because he's a Christian? Or did he have his feelings hurt because he found out that Christians aren't pure and good and have done some atrocities in the name of God and he found out that this has made some people dislike his religion. It's tough for a kids when your rose colored glasses get shattered. And yes, there are some people who ignore the bad and act like Christianity has done nothing but good in the world. The wars of the Reformation had Christians slaughtering each other by the thousands in "the name of true Chritianity".


The language of the teacher was obviously defamatory and prejudicial, just as it would have been if he were referring to Jews that way; in fact, if he did talk about Jews that way, no one would think twice about his firing.

And my response was appropriate to your proposed ‘solution’; it was exactly the same argument that is often used against anyone who criticizes the abusive exercise of power; it’s almost never a valid solution, and always antithetical to true liberty.


If you read the Pope thread. CHRISTIANS were saying the same type of things about our brother/sister Catholic Christians. (e.g., Catholics killed 150 million people in the Middle Ages.) Should the Catholics lawyer up and sue those people for saying those types of defamatory things too?



Jhud -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/25/2008 3:40:48 PM)

quote:

If you read the Pope thread. CHRISTIANS were saying the same type of things about our brother/sister Catholic Christians. (e.g., Catholics killed 150 million people in the Middle Ages.) Should the Catholics lawyer up and sue those people for saying those types of defamatory things too?


Are you asking if they should sue people who lived in the Middle Ages?

Or if they should sue people posting on Crosswalk?



gengwall -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/25/2008 5:14:54 PM)

You folks (except Jhud) really need to brush up on your constitution. The teacher is THE STATE, and therefore is the very entity that the 1st amendment protects the people (i.e. the student) against. The teacher, as representative of the state, has no free speech rights - the amendment does not apply protection to him in any way. The amendment only protects the student's rights against any violation FROM the teacher's actions.

This case is purely being brought as an establishment clause case. The student is saying that just as the state can't establish one religion over another, it also can't establish NO religion over any particular one. The state, put simply, must be deaf, dumb, and blind to religion. It can not influence, advocate, or proscelytize either for or against any religion (or even religion in general).



gengwall -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/25/2008 5:19:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

BTW, anyone have a link to the claim filed by this group filed on behalf of this boy. What is said in "the news" and what is in the formal legal documents could be different. when the parents say they will "consider" dropping the lawsuit if the teacher has sensitivity training and apologizes means that those things aren't all they are after. Otherwise, they would have said that they would drop it,; not "consider it".
The complaint has not been published publically, except on the court's filing system. I listed in an earlier thread the entire list of quotes from the teacher that are contained in the complaint.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/26/2008 9:55:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gengwall
The teacher, as representative of the state, has no free speech rights - the amendment does not apply protection to him in any way.

No, all people in the United States are covered under the 1st Amendment; it does not allow for exceptions. We are talking about intrinsic rights here, not special circumstances.

quote:

The state, put simply, must be deaf, dumb, and blind to religion. It can not influence, advocate, or proscelytize either for or against any religion (or even religion in general).

He was guilty of miscontruing statistics, not of religious persecution.



Jhud -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/26/2008 10:33:10 AM)

quote:

No, all people in the United States are covered under the 1st Amendment; it does not allow for exceptions. We are talking about intrinsic rights here, not special circumstances.


Well, technically, what he doesn't have a right to is a job.

But just to see how consistent you are, if he were spewing overtly racist comments would you have a problem with him continuing to teach high school students?

quote:

He was guilty of miscontruing statistics, not of religious persecution.


He didn't even cite any statistics.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class (4/26/2008 1:45:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, technically, what he doesn't have a right to is a job.

BINGO! At last you made the correct distinction . . .

quote:

But just to see how consistent you are, if he were spewing overtly racist comments would you have a problem with him continuing to teach high school students?

Did you see my example in post #91 about the history teacher telling the class that the Holocaust was a hoax? That really happened in a school in the community I lived in about four years ago.
You know what happened to him?-- absolutely nothing.
Do I think that he had a right to continue teaching after saying what he said?-- absolutely not.
Would I take him and the school to court and try to argue that the 1st Amendment does not apply to him just because he is a teacher?-- absolutely not.

quote:

He didn't even cite any statistics.

He didn't pull those factoids out of thin air. The South does have the highest per capita instances of violent crime, and it is a major stronghold of Christian fundamentalism. Does this mean that these two facts share a direct correlation? Of course not.



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