RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign

RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (Full Version)

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[Poll]

War in Iraq

We are in Iraq because of oil

27% (116)

We are in Iraq to liberate the less fortunate

8% (36)

We are in Iraq to protect Israel

4% (18)

We are in Iraq to stop terrorists

33% (144)

We are in Iraq for some other reason

26% (113)

Total Votes : 427

(last vote on : 9/26/2008 12:04:25 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

jkdjr25 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/14/2008 12:46:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 And my arguement has been and always will be that our leaders do not bear all the responsibility for this conflict. There never has been nor will there ever will be such facts/ "truth" to support such an arguement that our leaders are fully and totally responsible for this conflict, or any conflict. Your argument is erroneous. The administration and the congress are both to be held accountable for getting us into the war in Iraq. Congress voted to give the President the power to declare war and declare war he did. By every definition this makes him responsible for us being in this war, and it makes him accountable for the things that have been done wrong.

RichLP -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/14/2008 1:14:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 And my arguement has been and always will be that our leaders do not bear all the responsibility for this conflict. There never has been nor will there ever will be such facts/ "truth" to support such an arguement that our leaders are fully and totally responsible for this conflict, or any conflict. Please forgive me for the bluntness of what I'm going to say, Leon_Figg3, but if you honestly believe what you just wrote, I will not engage you any further, as it won't be worth my time. If you honestly think there will never be such facts or 'truth' to support that our leaders bear the responsibility for this war, then it just seems to me that: 1. You don't want American leaders to be seen as guilty even when they are 2. You are just copping out, which is, frankly, cowardly. Again: this is not to create ill-will, hostility, or tension; but, if you think there are no established "facts" or "truth" when we have a plethora of testimony from officials within government and military who saw ineptitude, all the way to officials on the ground working for first ORHA and then the CPA - then it may be wisest for you and I to cease debating this war.

cow451 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/14/2008 2:14:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 As far as Iraq, much of the same questions that existed before we went in have yet to be fully answered. Yes, we have not found WMD, but what happened to the weapons, and technology we, and the rest of the world believed they had, in fact did have at one time? Had WMD's existed in Iraq in 2003, somebody would have been using them by now, given the brutality of the sectarian violence. There's no evidence operable weapons existed or were shipped to Syria, Iran or anywhere else. Saddam wanted everyone to believe he still had WMD's as a ploy to keep his enemies from acting. Saddam wasn't exactly considered "Brother Love" by his countrymen or his neighbors. He also wanted to save face (an extremely important cultural value). He miscalculated the neocons would be smart enough to keep military intervention at a reasonable level. So he outsmarted himself as did his counterpart, Mr. Bush. Mr. Dictator meets Mr. Arrogant. Most likely, the WMDs that existed after Gulf War were used up against the Kurds, et al , dismantled and/or deteriorated. I agree the "truth" is sometimes a bit murky. That's why I prefer facts and evidence. The preponderence of the evidence is that the neocon brain trust ran amuck and the Congress and the public were too trusting in the aftermath of 9/11. Hence Quagmire Redux.

Kath -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/14/2008 3:50:27 PM)
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Kath -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/14/2008 3:52:57 PM)
stamper_ben An email has been sent to your account. If you did not receive it please contact community@salemwebnetwork.com Sincerely Kath Volunteer Assistant Administrator Please do not reply to this message within the Community. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns allowing time for a response during normal business hours. Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service. Please review our FAQ for an explanation of this policy.

mrwrench -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/14/2008 5:57:56 PM)
I did not read of the post and I do not know if any one else has been there but I can say that I have. I do not expect everyone to think that I am special because of that. it is hard me to say that we belong there or not having been there I learned one thing you have been to one military funeral that is one to many. The reason we are there I could not tell you, but that will be a debate that will never end. It hard to give an opinion on that seeing I have seen both side of the coin. On one side I think we belong there to keep our country safe from any other terrorist attack. On the other hand I tend to think that all troops need to come home because we really do not belong there and there is really no reason for us not being there. So as far as putting in on the poll I can not decide, all I know is that we need to pray for the troops there until it is decided that we will be pulled out.

rlj -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 7:59:01 AM)
Nothing to add really just caught my attention: quote: PARIS (AP) � Seven men were convicted on terror charges Wednesday in Paris for helping funnel fighters to Iraq � a case that exposed how the war has sucked in radical youths from Europe. The judge handed down sentences of up to seven years in prison. The suspects � five Frenchmen, a Moroccan and an Algerian � were convicted of "criminal association with a terrorist enterprise," a blanket charge used in many French terrorist cases that carries a maximum 10-year prison term. Most acknowledged going to Iraq after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, or planning to go, but all denied involvement in a cell accused of recruiting French fighters for Iraq's insurgency. The men went on trial in March after years of investigation by French authorities. The case struck a nerve because it demonstrated how young devout Muslim Frenchmen were abandoning what they saw as bleak prospects in secular France for Iraqi battlefields. It also raised fears that French fighters could use those battlefield skills in terror attacks back home in Europe. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g0eE068nO8xtYwNDSkvCoOYhKayQD90LC4S00

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 10:15:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 And my arguement has been and always will be that our leaders do not bear all the responsibility for this conflict. There never has been nor will there ever will be such facts/ "truth" to support such an arguement that our leaders are fully and totally responsible for this conflict, or any conflict. The people who initiated the war in Iraq are 100% responsible for the conflict. How can they not be? The United States in invaded a sovereign nation with at best questionable reasons, removed its leader, and now is using the country to fight a war against terrorism on the soil of that nation. quote: As far as Iraq, much of the same questions that existed before we went in have yet to be fully answered. Yes, we have not found WMD, but what happened to the weapons, and technology we, and the rest of the world believed they had, in fact did have at one time? We didn't have an issue with Iraq when they used WMD on Iran... Of course we ourselves have WMD's, but that's ok, we are the good guys... [8\|] quote: Yes, it is unfortuneate that individuals in our government connected Iraq as strongly with 9/11 as they did but purhaps Islamic extrmeism is such a reality and such a threat that such a connection, or the possibility of such a connection could not be ruled out. The last thing that was ever in Iraq was Islamic extremism... Of course that's not the case now... John

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 10:32:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jkdjr25 quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 And my arguement has been and always will be that our leaders do not bear all the responsibility for this conflict. There never has been nor will there ever will be such facts/ "truth" to support such an arguement that our leaders are fully and totally responsible for this conflict, or any conflict. Your argument is erroneous. The administration and the congress are both to be held accountable for getting us into the war in Iraq. Congress voted to give the President the power to declare war and declare war he did. By every definition this makes him responsible for us being in this war, and it makes him accountable for the things that have been done wrong. I fail to see how my arguement can really be seen as erroneous. It takes two to dance (at least it used to) It takes two parties to have a relationship. It at least takes two parties to carry on some sort of diplomacy. It takes two parties to engage in conflict/war. About the only ways that my arguement can be seen is erroneous a. You just look at the events just prior to conflict/war. You do not look at history. You do not look at individuals and events that have led up to the situation in question. You do not look at the big picture (the possibilities)as best you are able. b. You believe the other party is totally innocent and bears absolutely no responsibilty for his actions, decisions.

jkdjr25 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 11:24:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 quote: ORIGINAL: jkdjr25 quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 And my arguement has been and always will be that our leaders do not bear all the responsibility for this conflict. There never has been nor will there ever will be such facts/ "truth" to support such an arguement that our leaders are fully and totally responsible for this conflict, or any conflict. Your argument is erroneous. The administration and the congress are both to be held accountable for getting us into the war in Iraq. Congress voted to give the President the power to declare war and declare war he did. By every definition this makes him responsible for us being in this war, and it makes him accountable for the things that have been done wrong. I fail to see how my arguement can really be seen as erroneous. It takes two to dance (at least it used to) It takes two parties to have a relationship. It at least takes two parties to carry on some sort of diplomacy. It takes two parties to engage in conflict/war. About the only ways that my arguement can be seen is erroneous a. You just look at the events just prior to conflict/war. You do not look at history. You do not look at individuals and events that have led up to the situation in question. You do not look at the big picture (the possibilities)as best you are able. b. You believe the other party is totally innocent and bears absolutely no responsibilty for his actions, decisions. That makes no sense at all. By your logic you seem to think that the Iraqis should have just let us come in and kill Hussein then allow us to take over. There wouldn't have been a war then right? Iraq did not attack us. Iraq did not have anything to do with 9/11 as many independent investigations have shown. Iraq may have had WMDs at some point but intelligence, that the administration ignored mind you, showed that they didn't have any prior to us invading Iraq. The actions of the administration has brought about the birth of al Quaeda in Iraq.The actions of the administration have led to the deaths of 4000 Americans in a war we had no business starting. Defending oneself in a conflict in no way makes you responsible for the war itself. It's aggressor that is at fault and I'd like to think that you know that. We have a responsibility to our soldiers to get them out of this mess and get them the medical care that many of them desperately need.

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 11:44:57 AM)
You've just proven my point. What about the first Gulf War and the peace terms that were agreed to and signed? What about the 12 years of UN resolutions to get Saddam and Iraq to abide by the peace agreement? Even then he refused until threatened with some kind of military force. What about the growth and accptance of Islamic extremism throughout the world that dates back too the 1930s? What about the increased advocacy of terrorism of all kinds by jhadists like Osama bin Laden-men of intelligence, charisma, power, and money? etc etc etc.

jkdjr25 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 11:51:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 You've just proven my point. What about the first Gulf War and the peace terms that were agreed to and signed? What about the 12 years of UN resolutions to get Saddam and Iraq to abide by the peace agreement? What about the growth and accptance of Islamic extremism throughout the world that dates back too the 1930s? What about the increased use of terrorism of all kinds by jhadists like Osama bin Laden ? etc etc etc. How have I proven any point but my own? We cannot police the world to destroy Islam. If Saddam broke the UN sanctions, and we all know he very likely did, then the UN should have gone in. Not us. They didn't want a war and for some incomprehensible reason the administration opened a second war before the first was won. So, again, the responsibility for the war falls on the government of the United States. How is this hard to understand unless you are unwilling to do so?

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 12:25:28 PM)
The UN didn't go in basically because they lack the ability and willingness to go in militarily, which has always been it's main weakness. They depend on the willingness and ability of member countries, largely US to "go in" No we can not and should not have to be the "policemen" of the world. I believe that that is why Woodrow Wilson was so dedicated to the idea of the US being instrumental in establishing a forum through which countries could resolve issues before they developed into conflicts. He did not wish either for the US to fill that role, or be looked upon, and expected to act as such. Unfortuneately we are. That is our role in this world. Like it or not, for the most part, we are the only country in the world (argueably) with the ability, ideals, resources, people, wealth, and willingness to carry out that role. Why else do you think millions of people, throughout the world, tend to flock to this country legally and illegally? quote: So, again, the responsibility for the war falls on the government of the United States. How is this hard to understand unless you are unwilling to do so? It's not hard to understand. I just refuse to believe that historic events just happen. Historic events do not happen in a vaccuum. There is always a trail of previous events that lead up to and cause events like war, which in turn cause still other events. The conflict in Iraq did not happen just because a handful of people had nothing better to do. Granted, in the past such things seemed to have happened, but if you look closely at situations you would see that there were a host of other things at work that led up to a given conflict/ situation.

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 12:40:36 PM)
quote: We cannot police the world to destroy Islam. Who said anything about destroying Islam? The fight is against extremist/ fundamentalistic Islam. The kind of Islam that insists that there is no way Moslems may share this world with a non-Moslems unless all non-Moslems be seen and treated as a second class citizens, if they are allowed to live at all.

cow451 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 4:21:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 What about the growth and accptance of Islamic extremism throughout the world that dates back too the 1930s? What about the increased advocacy of terrorism of all kinds by jhadists like Osama bin Laden-men of intelligence, charisma, power, and money? etc etc etc. Neither had anything of substance to do with Iraq.

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 6:02:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 What about the growth and accptance of Islamic extremism throughout the world that dates back too the 1930s? What about the increased advocacy of terrorism of all kinds by jhadists like Osama bin Laden-men of intelligence, charisma, power, and money? etc etc etc. Neither had anything of substance to do with Iraq. Cow451, I willing to conceed your point, to a point. 1. I do not have any information readily available to dispute you. 2. This may be where the truth gets a little mirky. 3. Because the truth of the matter may not be as clear cut as we would like, we were, and are drawn into "what if" scenarios" more so than in the realities of the matter. Iraq may prove to have been a no-win situation for us. However, it was a situation that required action if for no other reason than to forstall the "what if scenarios" it seemed to forshadowed.

cow451 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 6:06:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 quote: ORIGINAL: cow451 quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 What about the growth and accptance of Islamic extremism throughout the world that dates back too the 1930s? What about the increased advocacy of terrorism of all kinds by jhadists like Osama bin Laden-men of intelligence, charisma, power, and money? etc etc etc. Neither had anything of substance to do with Iraq. Cow451, I willing to conceed your point, to a point. 1. I do not have any information readily available to dispute you. 2. This may be where the truth gets a little mirky. 3. Because the truth of the matter may not be as clear cut as we would like, we were, and are drawn into "what if" scenarios" more so than in the realities of the matter. Iraq may prove to have been a no-win situation for us. However, it was a situation that required action if for no other reason than to forstall the "what if scenarios" it seemed to forshadowed. By that logic we should invade Syria, Iran, Somalia, Nigeria, Russia and France. Iraq was chosen because of the neocon agenda, the public's trust after 9/11, W's need to one-up Dad and because it was believed to be an easy mark.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 7:31:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 The conflict in Iraq did not happen just because a handful of people had nothing better to do. The party that invades another sovereign nations is the one who the majority of the responsibilities falls on... Iraq posed NO threat to the United States, we had no just cause to invade... The real sad part of all this is that the debacle in Iraq as taken from the real issue of fighting terrorism elsewhere in so many ways and on some many levels... I wonder how many more people would be supporting our efforts regarding terrorism if we weren't in Iraq... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 7:34:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 Iraq may prove to have been a no-win situation for us. However, it was a situation that required action if for no other reason than to forstall the "what if scenarios" it seemed to forshadowed. That's some real weak reasoning for invading another country... John

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/15/2008 10:14:15 PM)
Looks like it's time for me to bow out of this discussion. It is really getting frustrating seeing the logic of my arguements be twisted and taken to weird extremes without being addressed and discussed, and then read other "logic" used to support a contrary view and not be able to respond witout feeling I will violate TOS in some way. Before I leave, I woud like to say we did not choose Iraq, history did. Iraq positioned itself as a Pandora's Box of concerns and questions that needed to be addressed that no other country in the area posed at that time.

jkdjr25 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/16/2008 12:47:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 Looks like it's time for me to bow out of this discussion. It is really getting frustrating seeing the logic of my arguements be twisted and taken to weird extremes without being addressed and discussed, and then read other "logic" used to support a contrary view and not be able to respond witout feeling I will violate TOS in some way. Before I leave, I woud like to say we did not choose Iraq, history did. Iraq positioned itself as a Pandora's Box of concerns and questions that needed to be addressed that no other country in the area posed at that time. History did nothing. History is a concept, it's the sum total of the past leading to the present and creating the future God has in store for us. Our leaders chose to invade Iraq. They chose to send them in without the proper equipment and they chose to send back 43000 soldiers who were declared medically unfit to serve. It's all about choice and our leaders made the wrong ones.

P31W -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/16/2008 9:09:37 AM)
I have said from day one and continue to say and believe that the reason we are in war with Iraq is becaue someone Or many people in Iraq were seeking to know the One True God and he chose to answer their prayers. God chose to open up that country so that those who chose to know him could hear the good news of Jesus Christ. Those 28 million people now have a chance to hear about Christ and have eternal life. They inturn will tell their children and grandchildren about him. Meaning millions more will know how they can have "peace with God".

jkdjr25 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/16/2008 10:41:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W I have said from day one and continue to say and believe that the reason we are in war with Iraq is becaue someone Or many people in Iraq were seeking to know the One True God and he chose to answer their prayers. God chose to open up that country so that those who chose to know him could hear the good news of Jesus Christ. Those 28 million people now have a chance to hear about Christ and have eternal life. They inturn will tell their children and grandchildren about him. Meaning millions more will know how they can have "peace with God". Contrary to popular belief there are Christians in Iraq, Iran and other countries in the middle east. However it is illegal to be one and that's a crime punishable by beheading. So it's not like that they had zero chance to hear the Gospel prior to the war. It's just a situation much like China, North Korea, and the old USSR. You have to bring the message in secretly and allow it to spread like it did in the old days. 28 million people may have the chance, but that doesn't mean they will accept. 2000+ years of Islam and hating the Jews and Christians will make that difficult.

rlj -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/16/2008 12:39:24 PM)
quote: I have said from day one and continue to say and believe that the reason we are in war with Iraq is becaue someone Or many people in Iraq were seeking to know the One True God and he chose to answer their prayers. God chose to open up that country so that those who chose to know him could hear the good news of Jesus Christ. Those 28 million people now have a chance to hear about Christ and have eternal life. They inturn will tell their children and grandchildren about him. Meaning millions more will know how they can have "peace with God". Sadly the chances for Iraqi christians to live their faith under Saddam were much better then they are now. Saddams removal was the worst thing that could have happened to them: quote: Under Saddam Hussein, in overwhelmingly Muslim Iraq, some Christians rose to the top, notably Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz, and the Baathist regime kept a lid on anti-Christian violence. But this started to change after the removal of Saddam Hussein and the US-led occupation of Iraq. A spate of attacks on Christian targets in Mosul, Baghdad and elsewhere in 2004 and 2005 accompanied a more general breakdown in security in Iraq. It is thought that proportionally more Christians left. Clerics and members of their congregations who have stayed have continued to face the threat of kidnapping by some extremist Muslim groups as well as targeted attacks. They are sometimes accused by extremists of collaborating with the "crusading" US forces. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3526386.stm

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Bush pays price for 'Mission Accomplished' sign (5/16/2008 12:56:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 Iraq may prove to have been a no-win situation for us. However, it was a situation that required action if for no other reason than to forstall the "what if scenarios" it seemed to forshadowed. That's some real weak reasoning for invading another country... John It may seem weak to you and some others, but doesn't conflict and war , at least in part, involve struggles with "what if"? Doesn't life itself, of which conflict is a part of, involve struggles with what if? What if I rely too much on conventional wisdom to the total avoidance of other possibilities? What if I rely so much on my emotions and perceptions/ interpretations of facts and people that I can not bring or even entertain the possibility that I may be wrong about something? If memory serves me right Winston Churchill, prior to World War II tried to warn England that Hitler would not be content with his domination of the continent of Europe. He was hated and reiviled for his views so much so that he was forced out of government service. He was later proven correct. FDR also was ridiculed and berated for his stand that America needed to become the "Arsenal of Democracy" prior to our entrance into World War II. He too was proven correct for the stand he took. Some people see Iraq as the key to the war on terror, while others do not. Some believe we need to go after the head (bin Laden) and leave the body (Iraq) alone. Some see no connection between Al Quada and Iraq. Others believe that there just may have been on some level that can neither be proven, nor disproven, or totally ruled out. Some believe that the Bush administration took the easy route by invading Iraq instead of concentrating on going after bin Laden. Others do not. Which course of action is indead the easier route- the more productive route. What do you actually accomplish by first taking out the head? Almost nothing. You take out the person at the top and he will just be replaced by the next member in the chain-of-command. You may disrupt and cripple the network for a time, but it will continue to function. I am not a boxer, but somewhere in the course of my education I rememeber something someone said about boxing. You attack on all sides, but you're best chance of winning is to tear down the body. Wear the opponent out to the point that the head becomes virtually defenseless/ vitually unimportant. Saying that you are going to make sure that all those responsible for a horrific event are brought to justice makes a very good sound bite, but it doesn't always work out as conventional wisdom dictates, or as people expect it to, especially when that horrific event does not fall neatly into the catagory of just being a crime, or an act of war.

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