RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (Full Version)

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SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/17/2008 8:36:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: john_mark

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe


If babies are innocent enough for salvation what allowed Joshua to put them to the sword... I know God commanded him to do so... What is the reason they were put to the sword... The bible is clear on why and when live can be taken... What lawful reason were the people of Jericho put to death... Anyone?

John


what of God's children who are killed, hebrews 11

37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. 39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what Fwas promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

God controls every life, the manner in which a person dies does not indicate their salvation. perhaps i am misunderstanding your position


Their treatment was not done by God or by His command... They suffered for His sake... They were murdered for His sake... Sound evidence they were of God. How can we connect that to those put to the sword in Jericho and those who perished in the Flood?

John




stellaluna -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/17/2008 8:41:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Yes... God is just... And the people of Jericho were put to the sword... God being just would treat them all the same, correct? You are making a case that God is excusing a group within those He ordered Joshua to put to the sword... What is your basis for this?

In regards to the Flood... Are you granting the babies outside the Ark the same relief you gave to those in Jericho? And what of those who are not babies?

John

You are making the assumption that if God orders one killed, one automatically goes to hell. I'm not.

I do fully believe that God is just, so if there are babies in hell, I believe He has a reason for that. I'm just not presupposing that infants or children killed along with their sinful parents went straight to hell.

I'm basing that on "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." Tiny children and babies do not have choices. And there are also worse things that death.




SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/17/2008 9:11:19 PM)

quote:


You are making the assumption that if God orders one killed, one automatically goes to hell. I'm not.


In the two accounts I pointed outo you have not given one shred of anything to prove other wise...

quote:


I do fully believe that God is just, so if there are babies in hell, I believe He has a reason for that. I'm just not presupposing that infants or children killed along with their sinful parents went straight to hell.


You are presupposing that infants and children are not sinful... It interesting that you have no issue with claiming the parents are sinful... The bible speaks of mankind and doesn't exclude children in that term and it uses the same mankind in regards to sin... If you remove infants and babies from mankind for one reason you can't insert them back into mankind regarding salvation... Christ said... One must be born again and spoke of no exceptions... If children are truly without sin there is no need for them to be born again...


quote:


I'm basing that on "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."


You need to find something else... Christ was using the children as examples... Children need everything from their parents; they need everything and offer nothing in return. That is how we approach God(well how we should), in need of everything and nothing to offer that which all things stem from, the Creator…

quote:


Tiny children and babies do not have choices.


Where does it say that? Scripture?

quote:


And there are also worse things that death.


Of course there is... The point of regarding the Flood and Jericho is that everyone regardless of age and gender was treated the same...

John




stellaluna -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/17/2008 9:29:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:


You are making the assumption that if God orders one killed, one automatically goes to hell. I'm not.

In the two accounts I pointed outo you have not given one shred of anything to prove other wise...

And there is no scriptural proof either that all the children went to hell. It can't be argued.

quote:


quote:


I do fully believe that God is just, so if there are babies in hell, I believe He has a reason for that. I'm just not presupposing that infants or children killed along with their sinful parents went straight to hell.

You are presupposing that infants and children are not sinful... It interesting that you have no issue with claiming the parents are sinful... The bible speaks of mankind and doesn't exclude children in that term and it uses the same mankind in regards to sin... If you remove infants and babies from mankind for one reason you can't insert them back into mankind regarding salvation... Christ said... One must be born again and spoke of no exceptions... If children are truly without sin there is no need for them to be born again...


quote:


Tiny children and babies do not have choices.

Where does it say that? Scripture?

I'm sorry, have you not spent any time around children? Can one put an infant in the middle of the room and say, "You have the choice whether to eat?" Can one put an infant to bed and say, "You have the choice to remove yourself from the crib?" Can one tell a sick toddler, "You have the choice to go to the doctor. Here are the keys?" You made the argument yourself that children receive/need everything from their parents. Where are their choices?

I have no issue claiming parents were sinful because scripture tells us they were. Scripture does not tell us that all the children were killed and sent directly to hell. I'm curious about why you are so insistent that these little ones were damned for all eternity.




SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/17/2008 10:20:18 PM)

quote:


And there is no scriptural proof either that all the children went to hell. It can't be argued.


The flood was a judgment and a remnant was saved.... So it can and is argued...


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I'm sorry, have you not spent any time around children?


I have four of them...

quote:


Can one put an infant in the middle of the room and say, "You have the choice whether to eat?" Can one put an infant to bed and say, "You have the choice to remove yourself from the crib?" Can one tell a sick toddler, "You have the choice to go to the doctor. Here are the keys?" Where are their choices?


Salvation isn't based on one's ability or not to make a choice so this angle isn't valid... You are so fixed on the temporal that you're ignoring the eternal...

quote:


You made the argument yourself that children receive/need everything from their parents.


I explained the gist of the scripture you posted... Christ using needy children as an example of how we come to Him. and more so our condition.

quote:


I have no issue claiming parents were sinful because scripture tells us they were.


Scripture speak of mankind being sinful... Are you removing babies/infants from mankind in an attempt to make your point?

And I have no issue subjecting mankind to the wrath of God because the bible says and states He does so...

quote:


Scripture does not tell us that all the children were killed and sent directly to hell.


It does tell us they were treated like everyone else and a judgement was handed down... You are the one placing a exception into the equation not I...

quote:


I'm curious about why you are so insistent that these little ones were damned for all eternity.


Because they were treated like everyone else in the examples I gave... Jericho and the Flood...

As well I speak against the idea because it inevitably leads to people posting of a special form of salvation for those they believe to be without sin…

John




stellaluna -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/18/2008 9:23:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Scripture does not tell us that all the children were killed and sent directly to hell.

It does tell us they were treated like everyone else and a judgement was handed down...

A judgment of death...not a judgment of eternal damnation.


I think you're simply determined to argue that there is no grace for babies based on biblical accounts that are silent on the eternal destination of children.

Yes, temporally, babies have no choices. Eternally, they may have. (TheoJunkie has an excellent post about this in the age of accountability thread, which is along the lines of what I believe.) Either way, I don't believe your conjecture that the children in these two accounts must have gone to hell and I don't find scriptural basis for it either.

You'll get no more argument from me.




john_mark -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/18/2008 11:43:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

Their treatment was not done by God or by His command...
John


so the treatment of God's saints is outside of God's control?




SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/18/2008 11:44:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna


I think you're simply determined to argue that there is no grace for babies based on biblical accounts that are silent on the eternal destination of children.


I think you are driven by your emotions on this...

quote:


Yes, temporally, babies have no choices. Eternally, they may have.


Choice isn't the issue...

quote:


(TheoJunkie has an excellent post about this in the age of accountability thread, which is along the lines of what I believe.)


I know what John believes inside and out...

quote:


Either way, I don't believe your conjecture that the children in these two accounts must have gone to hell and I don't find scriptural basis for it either.


Are you saying that people outside the ark were saved? You have scripture for that?


quote:


You'll get no more argument from me.


You never gave any argument...

John




SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/18/2008 11:50:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: john_mark

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

Their treatment was not done by God or by His command...
John


so the treatment of God's saints is outside of God's control?


Nothing is outside God's control... Yet it still stands that you are trying to make what God ordered and what He did by his very hand the same as someone unlawfully killing someone... Joshua didn't commit murder, yet the spoke of in Hebrews 11 were murdered...

As well the people spoke of in Hebrews 11 are said to be people of God, while those in spoke of in Jericho and those outside of the are not...

John




john_mark -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/18/2008 12:07:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: john_mark

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

Their treatment was not done by God or by His command...
John


so the treatment of God's saints is outside of God's control?


Nothing is outside God's control... Yet it still stands that you are trying to make what God ordered and what He did by his very hand the same as someone unlawfully killing someone... Joshua didn't commit murder, yet the spoke of in Hebrews 11 were murdered...

As well the people spoke of in Hebrews 11 are said to be people of God, while those in spoke of in Jericho and those outside of the are not...

John


i probably misunderstood you when i first posted. it seemed to me that you were making an argument that the way in which someone dies is evidence of whether or not they are saved. if i got that wrong i apologize




SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/18/2008 2:19:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: john_mark

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: john_mark

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

Their treatment was not done by God or by His command...
John


so the treatment of God's saints is outside of God's control?


Nothing is outside God's control... Yet it still stands that you are trying to make what God ordered and what He did by his very hand the same as someone unlawfully killing someone... Joshua didn't commit murder, yet the spoke of in Hebrews 11 were murdered...

As well the people spoke of in Hebrews 11 are said to be people of God, while those in spoke of in Jericho and those outside of the are not...

John


i probably misunderstood you when i first posted. it seemed to me that you were making an argument that the way in which someone dies is evidence of whether or not they are saved. if i got that wrong i apologize


What I am saying is that the idea/concept/belief of ALL babies going to heaven has to take into account the FACT that babies/infants in two clear cases were treated just like the adults regarding judgement. And if people wish to believe the flood was just a temporal judgement I can't help that... Or even Jericho...

I am not the one making exceptions, nor a special form of salvation for a portion of mankind. I believe that babies, people that are said to be unable to understand, and everyone else are in the same boat... We all, MANKIND need a Savior... And all of mankind regardless of age or ability cannot apart from the Holy Spirit understand things of the Spirit. There is no basis for babies to recieve mercy over anyone esle... That would make God a respector of persons... And the idea that intellect is key to salvation is going in the wrong direction... Salvation defies the wisdom of the flesh, only the understanding brought by the Holy Spirit can wrap itself around eternal life and a being that is not bound by time...

John




john_mark -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/18/2008 2:30:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

What I am saying is that the idea/concept/belief of ALL babies going to heaven has to take into account the FACT that babies/infants in two clear cases were treated just like the adults regarding judgement.
John


how does the case where the children were treated differently then the adults play into this?

numbers 14

1 Then all the congregation lifted up their voices and cried, and the people wept that night. 2 All the sons of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron; and the whole congregation said to them, " Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness! 3 "Why is the LORD bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become plunder; would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?" 4 So they said to one another, " Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt."

31 ' Your children, however, whom you said would become a prey--I will bring them in, and they will know the land which you have rejected. 32 ' But as for you, your corpses will fall in this wilderness. 33 'Your sons shall be shepherds for forty years in the wilderness, and they will suffer {for} your unfaithfulness, until your corpses lie in the wilderness. 34 'According to the number of days which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day you shall bear your guilt a year, {even} forty years, and you will know My opposition. 35 ' I, the LORD, have spoken, surely this I will do to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be destroyed, and there they will die.' "




dboutwell -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/18/2008 11:46:13 PM)

What are the children/babies being judged for anyway...the sin that was passed down from Adam?

If so, that judgment was death not eternity in Hell. Wouldn't God have said to Adam, "Thou shalt surely go to Hell forever and ever" instead of "Thou shalt surely die"??? Seriouly? If Hell is the destiny of all who (1) don't accept Jesus as savior or (2) aren't chosen to receive salvation??

There is good news... as in Adam ALL DIED, so also in Christ ALL are made alive. Jesus tasted death for every man.

Because of Christ we all get to live again. Some of us will be greatly rewarded for what we did with the knowledge we were given and some will. with great sorrow, regret not losing their own agenda and bowing their knee to the Lord of Lords.

Some will be beaten with many stripes, some with few..depending on what is deserved and only God knows that. An infant will not be judged with the same judgment a 60 year old Bible teacher will be judged with.

When Paul spoke to the non believers at Athen, he never made mention of Hell to them...why in the world not, if he could have possible kept one from going there? That, along with a lot of our thinking on Hell, makes no sense at all.

Look at who was really talked to about Hell.....was it sinners? Was it the disciples?

Answer this question.... If Jesus had decided not to die on the cross what would be mankind's destiny?

(1.) Hell
(2.) Death with no resurrection

Answer: (2.) Death, with no resurrection.

This will really free you up if you are inclined to look into it.

Debbie
ps..... we won't have to try to make excuses for God's burning tiny little babies anymore either....




TheoJunkie -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 6:57:50 AM)

Debbie,

Without getting into universalism (or even "universal reconciliationism")...

I find it puzzling that you can say that Jesus paid for the sins of people, and yet also state that everybody will be beaten and incur "stripes" for their transgressions.

Please provide the scripture that says anyone in Christ will be beaten or "striped."

On the contrary, it appears to me that Jesus SATISFIED ALL judgement for those who are in Him.




greatdivide46 -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 8:31:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dboutwell

What are the children/babies being judged for anyway...the sin that was passed down from Adam?

If so, that judgment was death not eternity in Hell. Wouldn't God have said to Adam, "Thou shalt surely go to Hell forever and ever" instead of "Thou shalt surely die"???

I agree somewhat with dboutwell. I find it difficult to believe the babies are really born in sin. If that were actually true, wouldn't that mean the Adam's sin was more powerful that Christ's sacrifice. It seems to me that if "in Christ all are made alive" then infants are born in original grace not original sin. Otherwise the sacrifice of Christ is of no consequence. But, hey, as Bill O'Reilly is wont to say, "I could be wrong." [:)]




URForgiven -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 9:12:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: dboutwell

What are the children/babies being judged for anyway...the sin that was passed down from Adam?

If so, that judgment was death not eternity in Hell. Wouldn't God have said to Adam, "Thou shalt surely go to Hell forever and ever" instead of "Thou shalt surely die"???

I agree somewhat with dboutwell. I find it difficult to believe the babies are really born in sin. If that were actually true, wouldn't that mean the Adam's sin was more powerful that Christ's sacrifice. It seems to me that if "in Christ all are made alive" then infants are born in original grace not original sin. Otherwise the sacrifice of Christ is of no consequence. But, hey, as Bill O'Reilly is wont to say, "I could be wrong." [:)]


We are all born in the image of Adam, dead spiritually, devoid of the Spirit of God.

Everyone is born with the same need, we are dead and need life.

"In Christ, all are made alive", means just that. All those "in Christ" are made alive. It does not mean that all are in Christ.

Do babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? No

Do babies automatically go to Hell when they die? No

All are saved in the same way, by receiving Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and receiving Jesus is a choice. Jesus alone saves, because Jesus alone has eternal life. This includes all people who have ever been, throughout the ages.

"... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev 13:8

How does God deal with those who for whatever reason, do not have the capability for awareness? I do not know. But, I do know my God. And my God is Merciful, and Just and my God is Love. However He deals with these, the one thing I do know is that He deals with them perfectly.




greatdivide46 -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 12:24:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

We are all born in the image of Adam, dead spiritually, devoid of the Spirit of God.
So, does that mean that the image of Adam is supreme over the Spirit of God until a person is able to choose the Spirit of God for themselves?




dboutwell -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 12:31:00 PM)

John,

Here is the verse I was referring to..

Lu 12:47
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Death, has been conquered for us, tasted by Christ for every man. But, the way I see it, those who are in Christ are held more responsible for what they have been given...like the parable of the talents... Really, most of the Hell scriptures are directed at people who should be the people of God... Why should a sinner care if he hears..depart I never knew you???

You see it differently? I am like Bill too...I could be wrong. I don't think I am wrong on God creating anyone knowing their fate would be burning forever though. He did invite to "reason" with Him.... I just think it's time to go back to the drawing board with a clean slate.

Debbie




URForgiven -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 12:57:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

We are all born in the image of Adam, dead spiritually, devoid of the Spirit of God.
So, does that mean that the image of Adam is supreme over the Spirit of God until a person is able to choose the Spirit of God for themselves?


It means there is a choice to be made, for sure. The question is, is that choice limited to only life on this side of physical death?




SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 1:13:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: john_mark

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

What I am saying is that the idea/concept/belief of ALL babies going to heaven has to take into account the FACT that babies/infants in two clear cases were treated just like the adults regarding judgement.
John


how does the case where the children were treated differently then the adults play into this?

numbers 14

1 Then all the congregation lifted up their voices and cried, and the people wept that night. 2 All the sons of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron; and the whole congregation said to them, " Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness! 3 "Why is the LORD bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become plunder; would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?" 4 So they said to one another, " Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt."

31 ' Your children, however, whom you said would become a prey--I will bring them in, and they will know the land which you have rejected. 32 ' But as for you, your corpses will fall in this wilderness. 33 'Your sons shall be shepherds for forty years in the wilderness, and they will suffer {for} your unfaithfulness, until your corpses lie in the wilderness. 34 'According to the number of days which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day you shall bear your guilt a year, {even} forty years, and you will know My opposition. 35 ' I, the LORD, have spoken, surely this I will do to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be destroyed, and there they will die.' "


The above makes clear distinctions, right? The verses separate the children from a specific SIN of the parents, not sin itself...

Now... I ask you, how does the above grant any relief to anyone in the Flood and or Jericho?

John




SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 1:23:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greatdivide46

quote:

ORIGINAL: dboutwell

What are the children/babies being judged for anyway...the sin that was passed down from Adam?

If so, that judgment was death not eternity in Hell. Wouldn't God have said to Adam, "Thou shalt surely go to Hell forever and ever" instead of "Thou shalt surely die"???

I agree somewhat with dboutwell. I find it difficult to believe the babies are really born in sin. If that were actually true, wouldn't that mean the Adam's sin was more powerful that Christ's sacrifice. It seems to me that if "in Christ all are made alive" then infants are born in original grace not original sin. Otherwise the sacrifice of Christ is of no consequence. But, hey, as Bill O'Reilly is wont to say, "I could be wrong." [:)]


Christ said one must be born again... He might a point to say it twice... No exceptions... Man isn't born in the Spirit from his or her mother.... The second birth, the one of the Spirit is the birth of true and eternal life...

It's not the sin of Adam that is powerful but how disgusted God is with sin that is powerful and what it took to pay the price for it(The blood of His only begotten Son) is clear evidence of that... As well, it's God who decreed that Adam's sin was to be passed down, not Adam...

John




SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 1:34:29 PM)

Here's an another angle on this...


It's clear the God numbers our days and if ALL babies go to heaven I claim foul if we are using the one must profess Christ in order to be saved concept... How can He be just and a NOT a respecter of persons if the above is true?

I know if the above were true I wouldn't care to live for the millisecond on this earth compared to eternity...

And I consider my four children... As a loving parent wanting the best for them wouldn't I rather have God take them for sure into eternity as opposed to have them live to some(never mentioned) age of accountability?


John




john_mark -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 5:04:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

The above makes clear distinctions, right? The verses separate the children from a specific SIN of the parents, not sin itself...

Now... I ask you, how does the above grant any relief to anyone in the Flood and or Jericho?

John


we see that God can seperate the children from specific sin, so we are left with the question of sin. do we die for adam's sin or our own sin? two passages display the difficulty in answering this question.

the first is the standard response found in romans 5

5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
5:13
for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

discussion of this passage has to be weighted against God's words in ezekiel 18, rather than post the whole passage i will post some excerpts

1 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 " What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, ' The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. 4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul Fof the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

most notably the soul that sins will die

20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

as a son of adam (your father), do you die for adam's sin or do you die for your sins?




greatdivide46 -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 5:11:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

It's not the sin of Adam that is powerful but how disgusted God is with sin that is powerful and what it took to pay the price for it(The blood of His only begotten Son) is clear evidence of that... As well, it's God who decreed that Adam's sin was to be passed down, not Adam...
Yes, I agree. But don't you agree that whatever the whole human race got (or would have gotten) from Adam has been completely canceled out for the whole human race by the gracious atoning work of Jesus Christ? Or is there still something that we have to do to make that gracious atoning work applicable to us?

It just seems to me that Christ's "one act of righteousness" (Romans 5:18) has completely intercepted, nullified, negated, canceled, and conteracted whatever was destined to be ours because of Adam.




SovereignIsHe -> RE: Do ALL babies automatically go to Heaven when they die? (4/19/2008 5:40:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: john_mark

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

The above makes clear distinctions, right? The verses separate the children from a specific SIN of the parents, not sin itself...

Now... I ask you, how does the above grant any relief to anyone in the Flood and or Jericho?

John


we see that God can seperate the children from specific sin,


I said that...


quote:


as a son of adam (your father), do you die for adam's sin or do you die for your sins?


We are condemned by Adam's and responible for our own...



John




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