Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (Full Version)

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dawgFan_42 -> Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/17/2008 4:37:35 PM)

I was reading an article where two brothers died in the Iraq War, and the sole surviving sibling was allowed a discharge. Now they are trying to recoup the signing bonus. I also remember back in 1976 when a Vietnam Veteran returned from his tour of duty. The company fired him,and refused to grant him his full GI Bill Benefits. He took hostages because of all the red-tape. The Veterans Homes resemble prisons. So why do we treat those whom fight our wars so badly? Yet we treat the Pope like a king? I am not minimizing those who died on 9/11 but they recieved on the avg of $2 million each. How much does a family of a Iraq War soldier get? Also alot of families have to move because the National Guard was not meant to fight foreign wars and,yet they are sent to Iraq. The income is sorely missed. The national guard was meant for localized emergencies...



relady -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/17/2008 8:04:40 PM)

Vets know when they get a signing bonus that if they don't complete the enlistment period that they will owe at least a portion of that money back to the military. That is standard procedure and has been for as long as I can remember. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about the vet not getting full GI benefits? Which benefits? Was that a Vietnam vet or the kid whose brothers got killed? Can you elaborate?



phosadaud -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/17/2008 8:17:26 PM)

I'm not in the military but I agree that it sickens me how so many of our vets are treated. Those who risk their lives should be given the best - not the leftovers. I think it's better than it used to be, but we still have a long way to go...



jkdjr25 -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/17/2008 8:39:25 PM)

I'm not sure why our veterans get treated so shabbily but I'm really sick of it. The things that have been done are a disgrace.

What's even worse is that John McCain, a Vietnam Vet himself, is against the updated G.I. Bill that 54 senators have signed up on. President Bush is against it as well.

The reason you ask? Because it makes things too good for them when their time is up. It's so good that they won't want to sign up for another tour of duty.

Yup. You read correctly. The updated G.I. Bill is too good for them. So much for caring about the troops huh?



phosadaud -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/17/2008 9:14:44 PM)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the reason the GI bill is being threatened to be vetoed is that it's not a GI bill. It's a bill to cut funding to Iraq and to try to get it passed, the dems ADDED the education benefits for GI's to make those who oppose it look bad. I'm not sure what's worse, but playing games with our troops like that is completely disgusting to me.



jkdjr25 -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/17/2008 9:20:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the reason the GI bill is being threatened to be vetoed is that it's not a GI bill. It's a bill to cut funding to Iraq and to try to get it passed, the dems ADDED the education benefits for GI's to make those who oppose it look bad. I'm not sure what's worse, but playing games with our troops like that is completely disgusting to me.


That's not what I've heard on the news. The new G.I. bill is sponsored by John Kerry of all people and a republican senator. The bill would increase benefits for the troops and is supported by vitually every veterans rights groups there is. It speaks volumes for the bipartisan efforts behind the bill that 54 senators have gotten behind it. The fact that the President isn't willing to sign it, and has said that the benefits are too good because not enough people would sign back up is repulsive to me.



iluvatar -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/17/2008 9:24:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the reason the GI bill is being threatened to be vetoed is that it's not a GI bill. It's a bill to cut funding to Iraq and to try to get it passed, the dems ADDED the education benefits for GI's to make those who oppose it look bad. I'm not sure what's worse, but playing games with our troops like that is completely disgusting to me.


That's not what I've heard on the news. The new G.I. bill is sponsored by John Kerry of all people and a republican senator. The bill would increase benefits for the troops and is supported by vitually every veterans rights groups there is. It speaks volumes for the bipartisan efforts behind the bill that 54 senators have gotten behind it. The fact that the President isn't willing to sign it, and has said that the benefits are too good because not enough people would sign back up is repulsive to me.


Do you have a source for him saying that? I'm no W fan, but I have a hard time believing that 1) he'd actually hold that position and 2) he'd be stupid enough to say that (said with full conscience of his tendency to say dumb things).

-Dan.



jkdjr25 -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/17/2008 9:35:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iluvatar

quote:

ORIGINAL: jkdjr25

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the reason the GI bill is being threatened to be vetoed is that it's not a GI bill. It's a bill to cut funding to Iraq and to try to get it passed, the dems ADDED the education benefits for GI's to make those who oppose it look bad. I'm not sure what's worse, but playing games with our troops like that is completely disgusting to me.


That's not what I've heard on the news. The new G.I. bill is sponsored by John Kerry of all people and a republican senator. The bill would increase benefits for the troops and is supported by vitually every veterans rights groups there is. It speaks volumes for the bipartisan efforts behind the bill that 54 senators have gotten behind it. The fact that the President isn't willing to sign it, and has said that the benefits are too good because not enough people would sign back up is repulsive to me.


Do you have a source for him saying that? I'm no W fan, but I have a hard time believing that 1) he'd actually hold that position and 2) he'd be stupid enough to say that (said with full conscience of his tendency to say dumb things).

-Dan.


The story where I first heard about the objections to the new G.I. Bill was on Countdown with Keith Olberman. Yes I do realize that the show is left leaning but I've found it to be fairly accurate on acutal news. I'm probably parapharsing and I don't know the actual statement but the logic seems to be that if we give too many benefits when they leave the service then no one will sign back up.



phosadaud -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/17/2008 9:42:13 PM)

I'm trying to find the actual bill, but I'm having a hard time, which always leads me to the conclusion that folks don't want us to see the full picture.[;)] This gives some more detail though and shows that the GI bill is simply an amendment added to a larger bill. It's the larger bill that the President objects to. The full picture is that this GI part of the bill is only one small piece of a larger bill that has nothing to do with GI benefits. It's how Washington operates: put something that everyone wants on to a bill that includes stuff that is highly controversial, then when someone objects to the controversial part, say they are rejecting the part that everyone wants. It's called - politics and it makes me ill.

This also illustrates how the media twists things (both ways) and why it's SOOOOO important to go to the facts and all the facts instead of letting partisan media hounds tell you what to think. [;)]



cow451 -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/18/2008 10:46:11 AM)

There's a thread going on the GI Bill already. It has links and some good information.

A Rand study just published noted that about 1 in 6 GI's returning from Iraq and Afghanistan have significant mental health problems. Few get good treatment, even when treatment is available. I think the blame falls more on the general public, frankly. The same people that rah-rah active duty and the war effort are loath to support the medical and mental health costs. Because more vets survive explosions, we have many more brain-injured vets coming home requiring long-term care. Where is that money going to come from. Not from Middle East oil, for sure. It has to come from taxes, that war supporters are not wanting to pay. That's why I want to heave every time somebody gets on the "support the troops" baloney. Rant over.



phosadaud -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/18/2008 1:01:25 PM)

Some people who support the war are like that just like some people who are against the war are like that. Both are inexcusable.



dawgFan_42 -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/18/2008 5:09:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: relady

Vets know when they get a signing bonus that if they don't complete the enlistment period that they will owe at least a portion of that money back to the military. That is standard procedure and has been for as long as I can remember. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about the vet not getting full GI benefits? Which benefits? Was that a Vietnam vet or the kid whose brothers got killed? Can you elaborate?

He at the time (1976) was a Vietnam veteran who was fired upon his return from Vietnam. He now works at a Veterans home in West Virgina..



relady -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/18/2008 9:03:45 PM)

quote:

He at the time (1976) was a Vietnam veteran who was fired upon his return from Vietnam. He now works at a Veterans home in West Virgina..
OK, by "fired" do you mean discharged? Do you know why, exactly? I'm sorry, many vets were discharged when they came home, some elected not to reinlist, some were medically discharged, I'm just trying to figure out what happened here that was so bad for him? Or was he fired from his civilian job he had before he went to Vietnam? I think that is against the law now, if I'm not mistaken.



ljmac -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/18/2008 11:27:07 PM)

Maybe they're treated badly because they've been called Nazis (Dick Durbin, D-IL), called cold blooded murderers (Murtha, D-PA) and stupid people who terrorize women and children (Kerry, D-MA).

Liberals in the government and press accuse them of mass killings of innocent citizens without even noticing that our soldiers put themselves at great risk by using tactics to avoid huring innocent people, they very people that our enemy targets.

Liberals in the government and the press favorite moment of the Iraq war was when they found pictures of the Abu Gharib prison abuse. Instead of pointing out that it was isolated, they spread it around like it was widespread, the same tactic John Kerry used against our soldiers in Vietnam.

Liberals routinely accuse our soldiers of torture.

Liberals call them occupiers and fight to close military recruiting centers. They fight ROTC programs.

Was the original question serious?



wing2000 -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/19/2008 12:00:57 AM)

quote:

A Rand study just published noted that about 1 in 6 GI's returning from Iraq and Afghanistan have significant mental health problems. Few get good treatment, even when treatment is available. I think the blame falls more on the general public, frankly. The same people that rah-rah active duty and the war effort are loath to support the medical and mental health costs. Because more vets survive explosions, we have many more brain-injured vets coming home requiring long-term care. Where is that money going to come from. Not from Middle East oil, for sure. It has to come from taxes, that war supporters are not wanting to pay. That's why I want to heave every time somebody gets on the "support the troops" baloney. Rant over.


I 2nd that rant.



TomTurn -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/19/2008 9:54:49 AM)

quote:

Maybe they're treated badly because they've been called Nazis (Dick Durbin, D-IL), called cold blooded murderers (Murtha, D-PA) and stupid people who terrorize women and children (Kerry, D-MA).

Liberals in the government and press accuse them of mass killings of innocent citizens without even noticing that our soldiers put themselves at great risk by using tactics to avoid huring innocent people, they very people that our enemy targets.

Liberals in the government and the press favorite moment of the Iraq war was when they found pictures of the Abu Gharib prison abuse. Instead of pointing out that it was isolated, they spread it around like it was widespread, the same tactic John Kerry used against our soldiers in Vietnam.

Liberals routinely accuse our soldiers of torture.

Liberals call them occupiers and fight to close military recruiting centers. They fight ROTC programs.

Was the original question serious?


Ditto

and

Maybe electing people to the highest office in the U.S with the attitude, "I loath the military", is not helping things



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/20/2008 6:33:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451

There's a thread going on the GI Bill already. It has links and some good information.

A Rand study just published noted that about 1 in 6 GI's returning from Iraq and Afghanistan have significant mental health problems. Few get good treatment, even when treatment is available. I think the blame falls more on the general public, frankly. The same people that rah-rah active duty and the war effort are loath to support the medical and mental health costs. Because more vets survive explosions, we have many more brain-injured vets coming home requiring long-term care. Where is that money going to come from. Not from Middle East oil, for sure. It has to come from taxes, that war supporters are not wanting to pay. That's why I want to heave every time somebody gets on the "support the troops" baloney. Rant over.

cow451,
I think I would tend to aggree with you that the general public is generally at fault for the bad treatment veterans tend to get. Not to get too deep into the agendas of politicians and a lazy media more interested in shaping history that accurately and fully reporting it, I would say that there are a number of reasons for that.

I would disaggree with you as to who is more at fault- the pro war people, or the anti-war people. I believe that when it comes to pocket book issues, Veterans medical benefits fall to the bottom of everyone's priority list. I remember an uncle relating that everytime he went to the VA hospital he discovered changes to how the system was being run, as well as to what catagory his military related injuries fell in, and what treatment he could get.

I hesitate to mention that I contribute to charities assisting veterans with medical issues as much as I am able to. I imagine a lot of people do regardless of how they may define "support" for the troops, or whether they are for or against the war in Iraq.

I would also tend to agree with you, if I am understanding your emphasis on medical treatment veterans get, that the emphasis should be more on improving the medical treatment veterans get. From my own experience veteran benefits for education have been and are more than generous on a national and state level.

I suspect that all the hoopla about this new GI Bill has more to do with the war, how people define "support" for the troops, and the guilt some people may feel about both, than either the bill itself, or the veterans.



rlj -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/20/2008 6:44:49 PM)

Cow's point as I understand it is that when we went to Iraq no one- not the administration, not the military and definately not the supporters had enough foresight to say "Man, if this thing goes on we should probably do something about Veteran's health care". No one can deny and it can't be denied that after 5+ years no one seems to bothered by it.

Oliphaunt had a sad but excellent cartoon about this a week or so ago:

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20080409/cx_po_uc/po20080409



phosadaud -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/20/2008 6:55:07 PM)

Again, I hate blanket statements. There are many folks out there doing a great work for veterans and pushing for changes (and bringing to light deficits). Are we where we should be? Absolutely not! But, I have a hard time with sweeping condemnations that brush everyone with the same broad brush when there are folks who are working hard to make a difference - and have been well before this war began.

And by the way: while I am a big critic of how we treat our veterans, if we are honest, we will admit that we have never done well by our veterans, and honestly, we are probably doing better now that we have ever done. This is nothing new and it didn't start with Iraq. And it has nothing to do with whether you were for or against the war. I'm not saying that I'm pleased with where we are at - just that if we spent as much energy actually doing something for our veterans as we do whining about it and finger-pointing, we'd be looking at an entirely different situation and maybe, just maybe, our vets would be getting better treatment.

And as someone who was/is a supporter of the war and someone who knows some of those veterans - and even ones heading back, I am personally offended that some of you think none of us cared/currently care nor did we think about the cost. Some of us most certainly did.



cow451 -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/20/2008 11:11:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

And as someone who was/is a supporter of the war and someone who knows some of those veterans - and even ones heading back, I am personally offended that some of you think none of us cared/currently care nor did we think about the cost. Some of us most certainly did.


Apparently none of you were having any influence on the Bush administration.



phosadaud -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/20/2008 11:21:47 PM)

#1 So the Bush administration is to blame for how veterans have been treated since this nation was formed a few hundred years ago? Wow. They ARE powerful! [8D]

#2 Bush has increased spending and accountability for the VA (while he was in office, funding for the VA was increased by 95%).

#3 If you are referring to this current bill, look at the ENTIRE bill and why he's threatening to veto it. Here's a hint - it has nothing to do with his support or lack of support of the troops.

Are we there yet? Absolutely not. But let's stop the political garbage and blame game and actually DO something instead of trying to get political points and news quips for the next campaign.

Oh, and no, strangely, the Bush administration does not listen to me. Kind of like how he didn't listen to a whole bunch of us on immigration...



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/20/2008 11:35:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

And as someone who was/is a supporter of the war and someone who knows some of those veterans - and even ones heading back, I am personally offended that some of you think none of us cared/currently care nor did we think about the cost. Some of us most certainly did.


Apparently none of you were having any influence on the Bush administration.

There are different ways of looking at the cost of going to war. You could look at the monitary cost, the cost in lives taken as a result of taking action, the cost of lives saved by taken action, or the cost of lives taken as a result of not taking action in regard to what is believed to be a real and present danger.



cow451 -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/21/2008 12:35:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

And as someone who was/is a supporter of the war and someone who knows some of those veterans - and even ones heading back, I am personally offended that some of you think none of us cared/currently care nor did we think about the cost. Some of us most certainly did.


Apparently none of you were having any influence on the Bush administration.

There are different ways of looking at the cost of going to war. You could look at the monitary cost, the cost in lives taken as a result of taking action, the cost of lives saved by taken action, or the cost of lives taken as a result of not taking action in regard to what is believed to be a real and present danger.

And events have shown that the administration was not even close to reality in their projections.



cow451 -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/21/2008 12:47:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

#1 So the Bush administration is to blame for how veterans have been treated since this nation was formed a few hundred years ago? Wow. They ARE powerful! [8D]

Your hyperbole is in response to nothing anyone has said so far.
quote:


#2 Bush has increased spending and accountability for the VA (while he was in office, funding for the VA was increased by 95%).

The President and Congress. A large increase passed by Congress has been approve by the President.
quote:


#3 If you are referring to this current bill, look at the ENTIRE bill and why he's threatening to veto it. Here's a hint - it has nothing to do with his support or lack of support of the troops.

I'm not sold on the current bill, either.



BlackCapnHarlock -> RE: Veterans -Why are they treated so badly? (4/22/2008 3:53:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: retro-dorx41

I was reading an article where two brothers died in the Iraq War, and the sole surviving sibling was allowed a discharge. Now they are trying to recoup the signing bonus. I also remember back in 1976 when a Vietnam Veteran returned from his tour of duty. The company fired him,and refused to grant him his full GI Bill Benefits. He took hostages because of all the red-tape. The Veterans Homes resemble prisons. So why do we treat those whom fight our wars so badly? Yet we treat the Pope like a king? I am not minimizing those who died on 9/11 but they recieved on the avg of $2 million each. How much does a family of a Iraq War soldier get? Also alot of families have to move because the National Guard was not meant to fight foreign wars and,yet they are sent to Iraq. The income is sorely missed. The national guard was meant for localized emergencies...


Correct post. Great post.

We don't care about our Veterans or the Troops. Since most Americans don't serve in the military anymore, no need to respect it or them.

To us they are just folks who couldn't find other jobs out of high school.



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