RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth.

RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (Full Version)

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swan42 -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/6/2008 5:22:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unclemonkey ORIGINAL:StephenJ quote: quote: What would S.E.T.I. consider as indisputable evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence? A clearly artificial signal from a clearly non terrestrial source. An encrypted code would be accepted then as indisputable evidence of an intelligent source? It depends. An encrypted code in the mathematical sense is indistinguishable from random noise, otherwise the code could be decoded by expert code breakers using pattern analysis. In any case, even the S.E.T.I. program is not expecting an "FM" or "AM" style encoding as those styles of encoding require significant amounts of power to be detected above noise. So, in a limited sense, the signals S.E.T.I. is looking for may be encoded with a method that improves the signal/noise ratio but yet not formally encrypted. Yes, an encoded signal is suggestive of intelligence and an encrypted signal may be encoded and the signal may be detected as encoded and recognized as encrypted without ever needing to be be decrypted. Whew! Frequency Modulation is a simple encoding, while Caesar Cypher is a simple encryption.

swan42 -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/6/2008 5:36:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unclemonkey It is proper to consider DNA an encrypted code, is it not? No, it is not proper, convenient perhaps but not proper. The technical term for how DNA describes information is encoding. Encryption is an entirely different concept. A brief example of two encodings for the same number. You should easily recognize them, hence they are not encrypted. 12 XII For fun I'll add a few more encodings for twelve that I recognize. (guess the encoding scheme if you can) 1100 14 C 7477656c7665

unclemonkey -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/6/2008 7:04:07 PM)
ORIGINAL:swan42 quote: Yes, an encoded signal is suggestive of intelligence and an encrypted signal may be encoded and the signal may be detected as encoded and recognized as encrypted without ever needing to be be decrypted. Whew! I stand corrected. Thank you. However, you do agree that DNA is encoded do you not?

swan42 -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 2:05:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unclemonkey ORIGINAL:swan42 quote: Yes, an encoded signal is suggestive of intelligence and an encrypted signal may be encoded and the signal may be detected as encoded and recognized as encrypted without ever needing to be be decrypted. Whew! I stand corrected. Thank you. However, you do agree that DNA is encoded do you not? Yes agreed. The encoding is quite interesting and is occasionally inconsistent between different species. Most people think there are 20 natural amino acids, but actually there are 22. One of the extra two amino acids is synthesized by a rare bacterium that lives on the ocean floor. The amino acids are encoded by triplets of DNA. The first DNA in the triplet is highly susceptible to mutation. The last DNA in the triplet is resistant to mutation. What I mean is that if the last DNA in the triplet is mutated, the resultant amino acid has a strong chance of being unaffected by the mutation. If the first DNA in the triplet is mutated, there is a strong chance that the resultant amino acid would be different.

unclemonkey -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 3:55:37 AM)
ORIGINAL:swan42 quote: quote: I stand corrected. Thank you. However, you do agree that DNA is encoded do you not? Yes agreed. Not that the rest of you post isn’t interesting because it is. It is just that it strays from the point I am making. The point being that ID is every bit as scientific as S.E.T.I.

Method -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 11:43:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unclemonkey Not that the rest of you post isn’t interesting because it is. It is just that it strays from the point I am making. The point being that ID is every bit as scientific as S.E.T.I. SETI is exploration, not science. ID is religion, not science.

Jhud -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 12:04:13 PM)
quote: SETI is exploration, not science. ID is religion, not science. What sort of exploration would SETI be?

unclemonkey -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 12:42:24 PM)
ORIGINAL:Method quote: SETI is exploration, not science. Science doesn't explore? quote: ID is religion, not science. ID is the exploration of the concept that the origin of life requires an intelligent source. Since ID uses the scientific process to make that exploration and has been demonstrated to be falsifiable ID is science. Sure ID has religious implications, but so does evolution. The big difference is that ID has empirical support and is falsifiable while evolution meets neither of those scientific requirements.

unclemonkey -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 12:45:37 PM)
ORIGINAL:Jhud quote: What sort of exploration would SETI be? Scientific?

Jhud -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 12:47:43 PM)
quote: Scientific? Well, yes, exactly. I can't imagine all those scientists involved in the project are scanning the stars simply because they think they are pretty twinkly lights.

Method -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 12:59:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud What sort of exploration would SETI be? It's spelled out in the acronym. It's a search for extraterrestrial intelligence, not that different from Cook's exploration of the South Pacific.

Method -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 1:01:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud Well, yes, exactly. I can't imagine all those scientists involved in the project are scanning the stars simply because they think they are pretty twinkly lights. They are searching for a strong, narrowband EM signal. I think they have also begun to search for coherent light (aka lasers) as well.

unclemonkey -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 1:07:05 PM)
ORIGINAL:Method quote: It's a search for extraterrestrial intelligence, not that different from Cook's exploration of the South Pacific. Cook was searching for ET? COOL!

Jhud -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 1:13:50 PM)
quote: It's spelled out in the acronym. It's a search for extraterrestrial intelligence, not that different from Cook's exploration of the South Pacific. Or Darwin's trip around the Galapagos in the Beagle? quote: They are searching for a strong, narrowband EM signal. I think they have also begun to search for coherent light (aka lasers) as well. And are these seareches based on any scientific considerations?

Method -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 1:30:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud Or Darwin's trip around the Galapagos in the Beagle? I haven't read much about that trip, but from what I have read the Beagle trips were aimed at cataloguing species on islands and other continents. quote: And are these seareches based on any scientific considerations? In as much as Cook's exploration of the South Pacific was based on scientific considerations.

Jhud -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 1:40:43 PM)
quote: I haven't read much about that trip, but from what I have read the Beagle trips were aimed at cataloguing species on islands and other continents. Wouldn't such 'cataloguing' require exploration? quote: In as much as Cook's exploration of the South Pacific was based on scientific considerations. Well Cook's first journey was commissioned by The Royal Society of London for the Improvement of Natural Knowledge, a scientific society, which sent him to observe and record the transit of Venus across the sun. How much more scientific can an endeavor get?

Method -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 1:52:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud Well Cook's first journey was commissioned by The Royal Society of London for the Improvement of Natural Knowledge, a scientific society, which sent him to observe and record the transit of Venus across the sun. How much more scientific can an endeavor get? Collecting data isn't science. The goal of science is to produce theories, not collect data.

Jhud -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 2:06:56 PM)
quote: Collecting data isn't science. The goal of science is to produce theories, not collect data. But collecting data is a scientific endeavor is it not? I mean it is critical to the process of science, is it not?

Method -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 3:48:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud But collecting data is a scientific endeavor is it not? I mean it is critical to the process of science, is it not? It is important to have a laboratory, but building a lab is not a scientific endeavour. Testing a hypothesis is science, and this does include collecting data. However, the act of collecting data is not science just as building a lab is not science.

Jhud -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 4:17:55 PM)
quote: It is important to have a laboratory, but building a lab is not a scientific endeavour. Testing a hypothesis is science, and this does include collecting data. However, the act of collecting data is not science just as building a lab is not science. Well, what are the minimum elements needed to consider an endeavor to be a scientific one?

unclemonkey -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 4:25:06 PM)
ORIGINAL:Method quote: I haven't read much about that trip, but from what I have read the Beagle trips were aimed at cataloguing species on islands and other continents. Hmmm. Sounds a lot like exploration to me. I guess Darwin’s theory must not be science. Just following your logic here.

Method -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 4:26:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud Well, what are the minimum elements needed to consider an endeavor to be a scientific one? A testable hypothesis and experiments which test the hypothesis (specifically, experiments which produce results that will either fulfill the predictions of the hypothesis or null hypothesis).

Method -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 4:28:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: unclemonkey Hmmm. Sounds a lot like exploration to me. I guess Darwin’s theory must not be science. Just following your logic here. Cataloguing species was not science. It is the equivalent of stamp collecting. Darwin's science was in producing a theory which explains the data. For example, Darwin sought to explain why species on islands most resembled the fossils found on those islands (island endemism). He sought to explain why finches has adapted to so many niches that were otherwise filled by different species in Europe. Explaining data through testable theories is science.

Jhud -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 4:31:34 PM)
quote: A testable hypothesis and experiments which test the hypothesis (specifically, experiments which produce results that will either fulfill the predictions of the hypothesis or null hypothesis). So is abiogenesis a scientific idea? Was the human genome project a scientific endeavor?

Method -> RE: S.E.T.I and Intelligent life outside of Earth. (5/7/2008 4:46:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud So is abiogenesis a scientific idea? It's a field of study that bridges chemistry and biology. quote: Was the human genome project a scientific endeavor? As much as the Apollo Space Project was a scientific endeavor. The real science started once the HGP data was compared to genomes of other species, especially the chimp genome which came out in 2005. The greatest achievement of the HGP, IM(somewhat)HO, is in driving DNA sequencing technology. The human proteome, the human haplotype project, and the human regulatory network are all much more important and much more science intensive. For the HGP, the only science used was in quality control.

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