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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/5/2008 5:06:38 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
No I did not contradict myself. I believe that instead of normal jails we should have italian styled prisons but with fewer years in prison. Once released they would undergo evaluation and, if they are no longer a threat, be released back into society on probation. I realize that this would not work for everyone so some should be given a life sentence. The point is not all crimes are equal and not all criminals are the same.
There you go again - so you do, indeed, believe in life sentences. Yes, for some like you said - but the point is that you do.
The crime that all humans have is equal - we're all sinners, no one is above anyone else and no amount of "good deeds" will ever meet the standard of God's perfection and justice.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/5/2008 5:32:51 PM
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xc279
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
No I did not contradict myself. I believe that instead of normal jails we should have italian styled prisons but with fewer years in prison. Once released they would undergo evaluation and, if they are no longer a threat, be released back into society on probation. I realize that this would not work for everyone so some should be given a life sentence. The point is not all crimes are equal and not all criminals are the same.
There you go again - so you do, indeed, believe in life sentences. Yes, for some like you said - but the point is that you do.
The crime that all humans have is equal - we're all sinners, no one is above anyone else and no amount of "good deeds" will ever meet the standard of God's perfection and justice.
Yes, I am a supporter of life sentences instead of the death penalty. I never said I wasn't. They still have a chance to change their ways in prison whereas the death penalty is final. And no, not all crimes are equal. Stealing a pack of gum is not equal to violently murdering someone.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/5/2008 6:04:38 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
Yes, I am a supporter of life sentences instead of the death penalty.
I don't see how or why you would be a supporter of life sentences when you're against someone being eternally separated from God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
I never said I wasn't. They still have a chance to change their ways in prison whereas the death penalty is final.
How would you determine when someone has "changed" and can then be relieved of their life sentence?
quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
And no, not all crimes are equal. Stealing a pack of gum is not equal to violently murdering someone.
You are correct that stealing a pack of gum is not akin to heinous murder one. But that's missing the point I originally made - that all of us are guilty of the same and equal sin. And that sin is not something you or I could ever blot out ourselves.
A perfect example is the story of the rich man and a beggar named Lazarus. Both died and the rich man went to hell while Lazarus went to heaven (called Abraham’s bosom in Luke 16).
Of course the rich man was aware that his sins were only committed during his lifetime. But interestingly, he never says: "How did I end up here?"
That question is never asked in hell. He doesn't say, "Did I really deserve this?" "Don't you think this is a little extreme? A little over the top?"
He doesn't say any of that. He only asks that someone go to his brothers who are still alive and warn them not to come there.
Like the rich man, every sinner has a full realization of his wretchedness in hell, a fully informed, acutely aware, and sensitive conscience which becomes his own tormenter.
This is the experience of torture in hell - a soul fully aware of his or her sin with a relentlessly accusing conscience, hammering without relief for one moment.
The guilt of that sinner produces shame and everlasting self-hatred and loathing. The rich man knew that eternal punishment for a lifetime of sins is justified and deserved. That’s why he never protested or questioned being in hell.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/5/2008 7:54:52 PM
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xc279
Posts: 57
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
Yes, I am a supporter of life sentences instead of the death penalty.
I don't see how or why you would be a supporter of life sentences when you're against someone being eternally separated from God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
I never said I wasn't. They still have a chance to change their ways in prison whereas the death penalty is final.
How would you determine when someone has "changed" and can then be relieved of their life sentence?
quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
And no, not all crimes are equal. Stealing a pack of gum is not equal to violently murdering someone.
You are correct that stealing a pack of gum is not akin to heinous murder one. But that's missing the point I originally made - that all of us are guilty of the same and equal sin. And that sin is not something you or I could ever blot out ourselves.
A perfect example is the story of the rich man and a beggar named Lazarus. Both died and the rich man went to hell while Lazarus went to heaven (called Abraham’s bosom in Luke 16).
Of course the rich man was aware that his sins were only committed during his lifetime. But interestingly, he never says: "How did I end up here?"
That question is never asked in hell. He doesn't say, "Did I really deserve this?" "Don't you think this is a little extreme? A little over the top?"
He doesn't say any of that. He only asks that someone go to his brothers who are still alive and warn them not to come there.
Like the rich man, every sinner has a full realization of his wretchedness in hell, a fully informed, acutely aware, and sensitive conscience which becomes his own tormenter.
This is the experience of torture in hell - a soul fully aware of his or her sin with a relentlessly accusing conscience, hammering without relief for one moment.
The guilt of that sinner produces shame and everlasting self-hatred and loathing. The rich man knew that eternal punishment for a lifetime of sins is justified and deserved. That’s why he never protested or questioned being in hell.
And once again you are bringing in the Bible to argue your point. Not logic. If you ignore the Bible for just a second and actually consider this, and the logic behind it, you can see that it is false.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/5/2008 8:01:12 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
And once again you are bringing in the Bible to argue your point. Not logic. If you ignore the Bible for just a second and actually consider this, and the logic behind it, you can see that it is false.
As a Christian, on a Christian message board, I am using a Christian worldview, yes. As a former agnostic/atheist, I see your questions from a mile away and find many of them very basic. Not saying that in a negative manner or a disrespectful manner, but being forthright with you about the meaning behind a lot of what you're arguing about.
The evidence for the Bible being God's Word for all of mankind is really something... when I actually started on the path of, once and for all, wanting to prove that Christianity was just a mindless sham of adult fairy tales I saw something very different.
The evidences ranging from manuscript, archaeological, etc all brought me to a point where I no longer had enough blind faith to continue being an agnostic/atheist.
I am not sure what you're seeking to discuss here because I am not one that is going to "argue" you into becoming a born-again believer. You wanting to become a buddist, a sufi, a Muslim, whatever is not cause for me to feel I need to jump into this thread and rescue you.
So, let's try this conversation this way, what exactly do you want to discuss or what specific question do you have for me and other Christians? It's obvious it will be one or the other (if not both) because you continue to visit here.
So please let me know what it is.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/5/2008 8:04:53 PM
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xc279
Posts: 57
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
And once again you are bringing in the Bible to argue your point. Not logic. If you ignore the Bible for just a second and actually consider this, and the logic behind it, you can see that it is false.
As a Christian, on a Christian message board, I am using a Christian worldview, yes. As a former agnostic/atheist, I see your questions from a mile away and find many of them very basic. Not saying that in a negative manner or a disrespectful manner, but being forthright with you about the meaning behind a lot of what you're arguing about.
The evidence for the Bible being God's Word for all of mankind is really something... when I actually started on the path of, once and for all, wanting to prove that Christianity was just a mindless sham of adult fairy tales I saw something very different.
The evidences ranging from manuscript, archaeological, etc all brought me to a point where I no longer had enough blind faith to continue being an agnostic/atheist.
I am not sure what you're seeking to discuss here because I am not one that is going to "argue" you into becoming a born-again believer. You wanting to become a buddist, a sufi, a Muslim, whatever is not cause for me to feel I need to jump into this thread and rescue you.
So, let's try this conversation this way, what exactly do you want to discuss or what specific question do you have for me and other Christians? It's obvious it will be one or the other (if not both) because you continue to visit here.
So please let me know what it is.
None. I started this thread to get a Christian view on Buddhism and to hopefully clear some of the doubt I was having. It failed. And since no one seems willing to discuss things logically, I am done here.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/5/2008 8:08:02 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
None. I started this thread to get a Christian view on Buddhism and to hopefully clear some of the doubt I was having. It failed. And since no one seems willing to discuss things logically, I am done here.
Seems a bit dishonest to now leave this thread when I have been more than open and sincere in asking you what your question(s) are.
You just said you wanted a Christian view, yet bashed my responses to you because they were from a Christian view, odd.
Well, if you are still interested in a discussion just let me know.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/6/2008 10:14:38 AM
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eaglesfeather
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For those choosing the Atheist religion or any other religion that does not believe in a creator than you can't possibly believe in a true spirit. A spirit can not be created from matter. According to your beliefs even your thoughts are only matter (energy is matter) so why care about what direction they take? Why allow them to take a direction? It's senseless...
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/6/2008 4:25:03 PM
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xc279
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eaglesfeather
For those choosing the Atheist religion or any other religion that does not believe in a creator than you can't possibly believe in a true spirit. A spirit can not be created from matter. According to your beliefs even your thoughts are only matter (energy is matter) so why care about what direction they take? Why allow them to take a direction? It's senseless...
Well, for starters, atheism is no more a religion than bald is a hair color. And why can't I believe in a spirit without believing in a creator? Isn't the creator a spirit? And can you clarify your last statement? That about "why care what direction they take"? I am not following your logic.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/6/2008 4:58:58 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5315
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We all have and adhere to a belief system and every single person on this planet practices a level of faith, blind faith even.
For some to claim they do not is simply empty rhetoric meant to appease their own belief system. The irony.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/8/2008 1:45:01 PM
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worthaboverubies
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xc, noone here can work out your faith for you. If you still have doubt I urge you to cling to faith and seek God. Ask him to replace your doubt with unwavering faith.
Us Christians see everything from a Christian perspective. We cannot prove that God exists, thats were faith comes in.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/8/2008 10:59:30 PM
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faroukfarouk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
Hi, I was a Christian for basically all my life. I went to a Christian school until junior high at which point I moved and started going to public school. I read the Da Vinci Code which (I know it is fiction) was enough for me to start doubting. I did research on my own to try and figure out the truth. I discovered that there are no historical records of anything that Jesus did outside of the Bible. The Bible also had no proof to support it.
On a spiritual level I also had my doubts. I never asked to be created. How can a loving God send people to Hell just for not loving him? I know that the reason for this was because all have sinned and fallen short the glory of God. But if he created sin (since he created everything), he created hell, he made the laws and decided that if anyone disobeyed them and chose not to love him that they would spend eternity in hell, then why should I love him?
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Yes, what about your sins, and mine?
John 3.16 tells of the way not to be punished with the punishment we richly deserve. The Bible has stood the test of time, and reading other books to try to decide if we feel like believing it won't work, sorry.
May I encourage you to read God's Word regularly and learn about the loving Saviour.
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Trust the Bible.
Trust the Lord.
Don't trust the appearance of things.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/14/2008 9:07:41 AM
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DeeAnnBailey
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quote:
Well, for starters, atheism is no more a religion than bald is a hair color. And why can't I believe in a spirit without believing in a creator? Isn't the creator a spirit? And can you clarify your last statement? That about "why care what direction they take"? I am not following your logic.
I read this thread a week or so back and almost posted but then I didn't. Since then I kept coming back to one thought on this. If you are right (there is no God, there is not hereafter) and I am wrong - I've lost nothing. If I am right (There is a God, Jesus is my Savior, I will live eternally in heaven because I accepted His offer of salvation and without accepting that I would spend eternity in hell) and you are wrong - you have lost everything.
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'When you stand beside my coffin, just know that I'll be walking Safe On The Glory Side'.
<<<Matt Holt, My Favorite Pianist of the Year!!!!
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/14/2008 10:47:59 AM
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Lurker
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just addressing the original post, I might think you'd enjoy a book by GK Chesterton called The Everlasting Man. It's quite cheap and a good read. He makes a good case on why it's logical to believe in Christ. He even addresses Buddhism fairly respectfully but points out what he sees as some flaws.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/14/2008 5:00:26 PM
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xc279
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeeAnnBailey
quote:
Well, for starters, atheism is no more a religion than bald is a hair color. And why can't I believe in a spirit without believing in a creator? Isn't the creator a spirit? And can you clarify your last statement? That about "why care what direction they take"? I am not following your logic.
I read this thread a week or so back and almost posted but then I didn't. Since then I kept coming back to one thought on this. If you are right (there is no God, there is not hereafter) and I am wrong - I've lost nothing. If I am right (There is a God, Jesus is my Savior, I will live eternally in heaven because I accepted His offer of salvation and without accepting that I would spend eternity in hell) and you are wrong - you have lost everything.
Unless of course it turns out Islam is right in which case we have both lost everything.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/14/2008 7:53:11 PM
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facedown
Posts: 993
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xc279
any thoughts on the previous posts directed towards your attention? most should be on the previous page, me thinks.
lurker
chesterton is a pretty good author. only read a few of his works. a little dry in moments. i think merton has a lot of good insights towards this direction. 'birds of appetite' is an excellent, albeit short, read
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/14/2008 9:49:29 PM
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xc279
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I'm sorry, there are a lot of posts on the previous page. Could you give me a specific one? Also have you ever seen the video called Zeitgeist? You can watch it for free on google video. The first fourty minutes are about the history of Christianity.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/14/2008 10:25:03 PM
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facedown
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xc279
post 54
post 60
the movie Zeitgeist makes serious historical errors. it argues, for instance, that jesus isn't a historical figure, in addition to other errors regarding misc myths. much of the "evidence" is anecdotal, unidentified, undated, and unsourced. there are cetainly a few witty statements, a bunch of fear tactics, and a seemingly convincing argument for those seeking their own answers.
further, the film argues that jesus never existed, that jesus is/was an invention of biblical writers who simply copied pagan dieties. here are a few historical errors:
the movie claims that horus was born on dec 25 of a virgin, and that the eastern star proclaimed his arrival, that (3) kings came to adore the new born savior; that he became a teacher at 12, at 30, he was baptized, that he had (12) disciples, he was betrayed, crucified, buried for (3) days, and resurrected after (3) days.
each point has issues:
horus is said to be born of isis, but there is nothing in the myth to attribute her as a "virgin"
issus wasn't the virgin, osiris was. horus was born in the month of khoiak (october/november), not december 25 - in addition, the bible never claims a birth date to christ. there is no star or three kings in the story of horus, no description of horus being the savior. and the only account of water that i'm aware of is regarding osiris. further, no "ministry", no 12 disciples, but 4 demi-gods that followed and possibly 16 followers and a few others. further, horus wasn't crucified. some accounts exist of osiris being brought back to life, but not horus, and not (3) days. no bodily resurrection.
::
what did you make of the film? do you question that which is presented, or accept it, for whatever reason?
look, i'm no fan of much of what the "church" has to say regarding a lot of things, becuase many times, the same approach is taken, albeit in "defense", rather than in "attack". but i'm aware of no scholar who questions the things this movie does (essentially that jesus never existed, for example). i'm all for folks asking tough questions, but when you're seeking historical and scholastic insight, stick to those whose credentials are a little better than these movie makers. there are a lot of scholars, and there are several popular writers who do a fair job (both conservative and liberal). read though both arguments, and go from there.
pax
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/15/2008 1:04:06 AM
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xc279
Posts: 57
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[Admin's Note: link to false teaching removed.]
I knew about similarities between Krishna and Hercules but the others were new to me. I have not made a decision yet regarding the film and will not do so until further research. I do question it, I would be a fool to not question anything presented as truth. It does look convincing and based off of the research I've done, which I admit, is little, it appears to be legit. They did make a few errors such as Horus having twelve disciples. The kings that you referred to are part of the tale of Horus; they are just presented as three stars. And as to the use of fear tactics, which one is threatening to through people into hell for not believing?
EDIT: I will try to reply to the other posts you gave me in the next day or two. In the mean time I'll do some more research.
< Message edited by Fritzpw_Admin -- 5/15/2008 12:15:03 PM >
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/15/2008 12:07:04 PM
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phreddy
Posts: 232
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xc279,
I am glad that you are willing to research the answers to your questions, but how can you fairly research something without reading the source materials (ie The Bible). I know that at this point in your life, you do not belive it, but without having reading the entire Bible yourself, you are putiing a lot of faith in other people you have never even met. I am not asking you to read The Bible uncritically, but just to read it.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/15/2008 1:24:22 PM
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xc279
Posts: 57
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Phreddy: I have read most of the Bible. I used to be a Christian. I read all of the New Testament and most of the Old Testament.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/15/2008 2:19:43 PM
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facedown
Posts: 993
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From: the urban desert
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xc279
religious tolerance could very well be the backdrop for the info for the zeitgist movie. again, notice the same lack of credible resources or data. also notice the same witty statements - there is no "tolerance" about it at all. it simply argues against historicity.
let's look at what some other folks have to say about horus, and more importantly, what isn't said:
notice that msnu doesn't mention any of the religious tolerance data
read touregypt - it tells the story of horus. again - nothing to confirm the movies claims. and the only mention of 'savior' is 'savior of the father' - as in horus avenges the death of his father. there are also quite a few resources posted at the bottom.
but the point is, if someone makes a claim (horus=jesus=horus), then validation is required. if you can point to (1) credible source documentation that would be awesome.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/16/2008 10:35:45 AM
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phreddy
Posts: 232
Joined: 3/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
Phreddy: I have read most of the Bible. I used to be a Christian. I read all of the New Testament and most of the Old Testament.
My apologies. I interpreted your post #53 to mean you did not see any value in reading The Bible. I still encourage you to include it in your research.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/18/2008 1:43:25 AM
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xc279
Posts: 57
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quote:
ORIGINAL: xc279
[Admin's Note: link to false teaching removed.]
I knew about similarities between Krishna and Hercules but the others were new to me. I have not made a decision yet regarding the film and will not do so until further research. I do question it, I would be a fool to not question anything presented as truth. It does look convincing and based off of the research I've done, which I admit, is little, it appears to be legit. They did make a few errors such as Horus having twelve disciples. The kings that you referred to are part of the tale of Horus; they are just presented as three stars. And as to the use of fear tactics, which one is threatening to through people into hell for not believing?
EDIT: I will try to reply to the other posts you gave me in the next day or two. In the mean time I'll do some more research.
Link to false teaching? Is it really that threatening?! Here's some more then:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread290806/pg1
www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/flaws.html
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1563.htm
www.ffrf.org/about/bio_dan.php
This is directed solely towards Fritzpw_Admin.
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RE: Thinking of converting to Buddhism - 5/18/2008 12:58:43 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1762
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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It appears you have your mind made up and are wanting to justify your decision. I did check out that first link you posted and did a google search and an atheist of all people debunked the theory that Jesus = Horus. I would post the link but the language is a TOS. When you signed up for this site you agreed to abide by the TOS and that means not linking to sites that argue against Christianity.
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Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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