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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/24/2008 1:15:32 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10541
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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Wow, RC...I'd agree that a situation you don't know the parties could be dangerous. But I guess if you're there on a God-mission, you don't worry so much about that.
I am amazed at the work you do, truly amazed.
_____________________________
For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants.
~Isaiah 44:3~
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/24/2008 3:50:19 PM
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hjemerson
Posts: 151
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This is a subject all pastor and lay should read and think on as a christian worker for the past 30 year I have been with family on these types of calls. I worked for a state ( Dept of Family and Children)a few years ago and had all the class to do with Abuse It i good to know most church will no longer cover it up as twn to twenty year ago they would under taking care of it in the Church,I saw so many faily and many youth living in fear and would not open up to other ,Yes Times have changed for the Best. As JR has spok of it should be dealed with . A Chruch wide activity as getting involed with supporting a shelter is s good way to start the church thinking about this problem .
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/25/2008 12:30:55 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1759
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quote:
was not suggesting that someone go to a house of a fringe-Christian.
What is a fringe christian?
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/25/2008 12:35:05 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3641
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
quote:
was not suggesting that someone go to a house of a fringe-Christian.
What is a fringe christian?
someone who may be attending a church or even a member, but is not or has no desire to be involved at all - meaning no one really knows them or what they are capable of.
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/28/2008 5:56:49 AM
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maddog4god
Posts: 265
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I think unless you've lived it - it's hard to deal with the deeper issues of shame. For exmaple, submission is called for in a marriage, but submission in this instance will not change anything. Too many times, "If you would only submit God would change your marriage" flies around the church. So on top of the "normal" shame issues, you have christian related issues - if you tell you may jepordize your spouse's ability to work in the church at a later time. (Can we be honest? Some people are VERY judgemental).
I had walked very alone in this subject for a long long time. I have brought a few select people who are now aware. It's still my choice what I will do but I know they will be there if I need them.
Abuse, incidentally is not always physical - it can be financial, verbal, sexual, etc. There are more ways (it seems) to abuse a person then not.
_____________________________
Fifty Two Weeks to change the world!
http://www.50-two-weeks.com/
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/28/2008 8:52:41 AM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10541
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
Abuse, incidentally is not always physical - it can be financial, verbal, sexual, etc. There are more ways (it seems) to abuse a person then not.
Good point. It took years for me to call my husband's many infidelities a form of sexual abuse. Other people could see it, but I couldn't for a long time.
A new monkey wrench for the discussion...what if the person being abused isn't willing to take action that is warranted (pressing charges, separation, etc.)? Should the church keep working with them indefinitely?
_____________________________
For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants.
~Isaiah 44:3~
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/28/2008 11:05:42 AM
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zoebob
Posts: 8915
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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Donna, are you talking about families where the whole family is a part of the church or also families where the abuser is not part of the church.
As for pastors being mandatory reporters, when I looked it up it appeared to me that if a member of your congregation comes to you and says "I'm being abused and need help" that a pastor is not required to report because it would break the confidentiality of pastor/congregant. However, if they witness the abuse they have to report it.
I know in my church, if the whole family was members of the church they would first attempt to get the abuser to voluntarily leave and work it out through the church first. If the abuser won't agree to that, then they would bring in legal authorities. If there are no physical marks (scars, bruises, etc) there is nothing that can be done as far as pressing charges, if there are no recent "attacks"
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/28/2008 11:17:07 AM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10541
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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I think I'm asking when the whole family is involved in the church (even just attending regularly on Sunday), or when the abuser has been at least not hostile toward the church and church authorities, and knows people from the church. I'm mostly focusing on what the church's role should be when the abuser and the victim are both involved in the church, because I think it is more clear cut when only the victim is involved in the church...then the church would offer her (presumably her) whatever assistance she may need and might be more concerned with her safety than anything else, at least in the immediate.
_____________________________
For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants.
~Isaiah 44:3~
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/28/2008 11:31:23 AM
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zoebob
Posts: 8915
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Then basically they would do what I said above. Try to get the abuser to submit to a voluntary, church imposed protection order and work with all members of the family to bring change and provide for their physical and spiritual needs. If the abuser won't submit to that then they would bring in authorities.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/28/2008 11:33:51 AM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10541
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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Makes sense. Thanks!
BTW, we had the woman I talked about earlier, the domestic violence worker, speak in church yesterday. Very timely for this discussion.
_____________________________
For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants.
~Isaiah 44:3~
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/28/2008 12:14:21 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
quote:
quote:
was not suggesting that someone go to a house of a fringe-Christian. What is a fringe christian? someone who may be attending a church or even a member, but is not or has no desire to be involved at all - meaning no one really knows them or what they are capable of. So you are saying that RC was out of line to go to that neighbor's house?
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/28/2008 12:47:59 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Thanks
RC
Thank you, RC, for the ways you have been involved in the lives of so many hurting people. We need more men like you who take the work of Christ into the world. Bless you! BTW, I've begun praying for you! The church needs more prayer for those in pastoral positions and I just want you to know that the Lord has asked me to be praying for you.  LL
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/28/2008 1:10:22 PM
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still4gvn
Posts: 606
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From: State of Grace, WA
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I'm not a ministry leader, but would like to comment. I've seen several cases of spouse (or girlfriend) abuse in various churches where the man was able to pretty much fool the church leaders into discounting what the wife was saying. A wife will often be very reticent to press her case and give graphic examples. One case, the wife had a stroke and was somewhat aphasic. The h convinced everyone she was nuts. Someone just left our church because her whole life group supported the h when she left him. He constantly kept them updated on what was wrong with her. She felt she shouldn't criticize him, and he had "forbiden" her to talk about the abuse. In case you're wondering, I'm friends with her Mom who is working on situation.
How do you guys handle it when the victim keeps returning to the abuser? That scenario drives us nuts.
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/29/2008 11:39:04 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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First, I do hope that this post will, in no way, detract from post #39 by still4gvn, which needs answers.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
We do have a woman in our church whose secular job is as a victims of abuse counselor. Would it be appropriate to make sure she and the victim were connected?
But additionally, it would be good to take another look at this question for answers from people with experience in this area. Depending upon the circumstances, it would seem that there could be very negative consequences in having the family see another church member. I can also see how having them deal with another church member would create a situation that would promote accountability in some cases. Anyone with experience in this regard?
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/29/2008 12:41:39 PM
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DenimDiva
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When I was married to my first husband, he was physically abusive. The church did nothing to stop it. I was told that I needed to learn how to submit. He didn't want a separation or a divorce. When I refused to go back to him, the church told me that I may want to find another place to worship. Neither my ex or I were Christians, but I was a regular church attender and that did leave quite a sting.
My second husband was a deacon in the church. The abuse was verbal. The intensity of it deepened when the church stepped in and they asked him to step down from his position as a deacon. It got worse when the law was called in. I had to move across the country to get it to stop. It still hasn't stopped completely, but at least I can hang up the phone when he starts down that path.
The church never condoned my leaving, but at least they were sympathetic as to why I did it. It was a big help to me to know that they cared enough to attempt to help.
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/29/2008 1:53:06 PM
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zamdad
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As someone who works in the justice system and serves in church leadership, this is a very complicated issue. Spousal abuse takes many forms and, all too often, the victims are unwilling to report it because they have too much at stake for the abuser to be discovered. I think churches run into difficulty in dealing with the issue because we no longer truly know each other. We have lost the meaning of discipleship. We deal with each other on very surface levels. When something comes to light that life within a home is not as it shoud be, we look for all sorts of back door means of dealing with it instead of having the courage to confront and demand repentance. Part of this is because the accused will often turn the tables and point out the sin in our own life/family. Therefore, it's easier to find ways of dealing with it that minimize the risk of self exposure.
We have to ask ourselves, who do we fear more? Man or God?
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/29/2008 4:09:04 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10541
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
I think churches run into difficulty in dealing with the issue because we no longer truly know each other. We have lost the meaning of discipleship. We deal with each other on very surface levels. When something comes to light that life within a home is not as it shoud be, we look for all sorts of back door means of dealing with it instead of having the courage to confront and demand repentance. Part of this is because the accused will often turn the tables and point out the sin in our own life/family. Therefore, it's easier to find ways of dealing with it that minimize the risk of self exposure.
Good point, Zamdad.
I think my particular church does pretty well at getting to know people and getting them connected, but there are always those who don't want to be known or connected, and therein lie many problems.
Roberta, I'm sorry your church treated you that way with your first husband. I cannot picture anyone in our church telling an abused spouse to just submit. 
I'm not sure what the church should do if a victim keeps returning to the abusive situation, which I know is a common occurence. Do you at some point just assume they don't want help? Is it different if children are involved?
_____________________________
For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants.
~Isaiah 44:3~
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/29/2008 4:11:18 PM
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DenimDiva
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
I'm not sure what the church should do if a victim keeps returning to the abusive situation, which I know is a common occurrence. Do you at some point just assume they don't want help? Is it different if children are involved? [/color]
I wonder how much of that is loss of self-esteem and how much of it is the abused wanting to make the marriage work?
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/29/2008 4:25:04 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10541
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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I think sometimes people would rather just live with it than to live with the stigma of divorce. Very sad, especially when children are being raised in it and will likely repeat some of these things.
_____________________________
For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants.
~Isaiah 44:3~
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/29/2008 4:28:05 PM
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DenimDiva
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Very true.
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/29/2008 6:01:59 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 8915
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From: land of limbo
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If anyone wishes to discuss this with me from my experience please PM me.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/30/2008 6:28:00 AM
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maddog4god
Posts: 265
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My spouse is an exceptional liar. I declined to talk to anyone because I was fearful of him making me look crazy - he does this in my house with me - in order to confront him with anything I have to have photographs or he will spin the conversation to make me look "mean" and "vindictive".
That is part of the issue.
Another issue is financial - I simply can not afford to pay all the bills on my own. When we seperated prior and even in our marriage now - he overspends. If I were to leave him or ask him to leave he would do everything in his power to ruin my life, literally. While my church family can support me emotionally, there isn't anything they can do about that (he dances around the illegal/legal line).
I have been told by a leadership person they can not tell me what to do - only I can make that decision.
There's an old saying, is the devil you are going to get worse then the one you have? In my case that is sadly very true. What I have now is bad, what I would get behind making that decision is worse. At this point in tme it is easier and less painful to NOT make that decision. Perhaps that will change in the future, I don't know.
It is rarely a simple jump up and get out of dodge situation. I was in an abusive relationship that ended quickly thanks to God as that person tried to kill me. This situation is entirely different in that it's been very subtle and over time - wearing me down, wearing down my self esteem, etc. Much more insidioius in my opinion.
I think we have a duty to support and build up abused persons. Much else? I do not know.
_____________________________
Fifty Two Weeks to change the world!
http://www.50-two-weeks.com/
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/30/2008 6:07:04 PM
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Ellie-Mae
Posts: 4255
Joined: 4/9/2005
From: The EMPIRE state!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
First, I do hope that this post will, in no way, detract from post #39 by still4gvn, which needs answers.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
We do have a woman in our church whose secular job is as a victims of abuse counselor. Would it be appropriate to make sure she and the victim were connected?
But additionally, it would be good to take another look at this question for answers from people with experience in this area. Depending upon the circumstances, it would seem that there could be very negative consequences in having the family see another church member. I can also see how having them deal with another church member would create a situation that would promote accountability in some cases. Anyone with experience in this regard?
I wanted to address this. The person that Donna is talking about is my victims advocate that I go to in response to dealing with issues stemming from growing up in a dysfunctional family and being sexually abused as a child. I also have another member of my family that goes to her seperately. It has been a very positive experience for us. It is nice because I don't have to explain as much since she knows us. She is also very good at catagorizing all of us. At church, we are just friends. She does not discuss what I say with my other family member and visa versa.
We don't have an abuser going to her so I cannot address that. I have seen really bad stuff come of that, but if you have someone who is truly wise and unbiased, then it can work.
I would deffinately connect other victims with her because even if she isn't able to help, she will get them in touch with someone who can. When I introduced my other family member to her (I didn't know her then), she connected that family member with counselors, group therapy, legal aid, and more.
That is my two cents about that anyway.
_____________________________
Isaiah 40:29
He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
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RE: Spousal abuse in church families - 4/30/2008 7:46:50 PM
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hnt
Posts: 550
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
I'm not sure what the church should do if a victim keeps returning to the abusive situation, which I know is a common occurence. Do you at some point just assume they don't want help? Is it different if children are involved?
You need to understand the mind of an abused individual. Its NOT that they don't want help, but their realities have also been twisted by this person that is hurting them. At times they feel they must deserve this treatment, or people won't really help them, people will abandon them, and as the abuser tells them the world will find out their are NOT perfect either...and then they think they are NUTS as well!
There is alot of fear and shame involved. It may unrealistic to many, but its real to them. They are dealing with a dangerous person, and they don't have to be smacked around to cause huge gaping hurts in their lifes. Their trust for others is hard as well.
You have to get inside their heads to understand this. I would recommend you do some reading this type of thing.
Its NOT different always when children are involved. The abuser normally shows the children that the other parents is really the problem. The victim also knows they will make their lifes miserable at every turn they can, and if you read enough about court systems.....you will find that abusers that have been convicted of domestic violence do also get custody of their children. They have the money and resources to fight for it, and the courts say..."HEY he didn't hit the kids!" The ladies in alot of circumstances feel staying IN they are going to be able to protect their children because they are there to take the brunt of things, and if they leave those children are unprotected if visitation is worked out.
There are ALOT of dynamics that most people don't stop to think about. Its not surface things like........don't they want help?? LOL as much as it may seem like it! 
There are secular and faith supported ministries that give resources, and answers to your questions about HOW to handle this. Seek them out!
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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