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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:52:40 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Duh.
Pardon me, did you just say "duh" to me?
So compare 2 fictionalized characters to each other. Not a real person and find the reality lacking and encourage people to be the fairy tale.
Many things can speak to us. That doesn't mean we're to model our lives on them.
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When I have a little money I buy Books.
If any left over I buy food and clothes.
Erasmus
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:54:53 PM
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crankius
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I'm a HUGE fan of fine literature, but I don't build my theology or my identity on fine literature.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 4:59:24 PM
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crankius
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quote:
Dr Francis Schaeffer found that God spoke to us through art, music, literature. The demise of modern man is written in the output of our culture: dark, twisted, alienated. Man lost, and separated from God in a dark and twisted abyss.
Literature, art, and music...the output of our culture, can do very well at identifying some of the traits of the human condition.
However, scripture gives us the solid truth about our fallen condition, and in addition, scripture gives us the solution to our fallen condition.
Eldredge identified some problems for some men, but he didn't provide a scriptural answer, from what I read.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 5:06:28 PM
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crankius
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Some concerns about Wild at Heart:
quote:
* Open Theism - Though Eldredge denies he is an open theist, the evidence does not support his claim. Time and time again he speaks of God in ways that can only be explained if you hold such views. "God is a person who takes immense risks” (p. 30). “It’s not the nature of God to limit His risks and cover His bases” (p.31). “As with every relationship, there’s a certain amount of unpredictability…. God’s willingness to risk is just astounding…. There is definitely something wild in the heart of God” (p. 32).
* View of Satan - Eldredge views Satan as the one who is to blame when we sin. He seems to believe that we are little more than victims rather than being fully, 100% responsible for our own sins.
* View of Jesus - According to Eldredge Jesus failed at something he attempted. When He encounters the guy who lives out in the Gerasenes tombs, tormented by a legion of spirits, the first rebuke by Jesus doesn’t work. He had to get more information to really take them on” (Luke 8:26-33) (p. 166). This, of course, is a complete misrepresentation of what happens in that passage.
* Use of Scripture - Eldredge does what is becoming all too common in the evangelical world these days. He uses verses and passages from the Bible without giving any context simply to make it sound like this is a Biblically-based book. Time and time and time again he assigns meanings to passages that are completely foreign to their true sense. At one point Garry Gilley says about the particularly ridiculous interpretation of the book of Ruth, "after all, no one else, to my knowledge, in the history of conservative biblical exegesis has ever come up with it before." Eldredge seems to make up meanings as he goes along.
* Revelation - Eldredge says that God talks to him directly. He also speaks to him through movies, books and so on.
From a review at Discerning Reader.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 5:08:05 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
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I agree, Kat_D, it's not about us, it's about HIM!!!
Always, only, Him...
So what do you'all know about the doctrines of the RPCNA???
But I digress...
Doctrine cops are those folk who major in the minors. You know, folk who question if nail polish is biblical...or whether Jesus turned water into grape juice...or if baptising infants is heretical...or of the Catholic Church is a cult...
Or tongue-speakers, post-millenialists, what-have-you.
John Eldredge doesn't pretend to be for everyone. All I know is that the doctrine of "man is a worm" is not Scriptural.
Scripture says: Ezekial 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
But, what do I know? I am probably all wrong...
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 5:11:13 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 6491
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
And, BTW, Scripture is full of metaphor, anthropomorphising God, who is Pure Spirit: Father, Everlasting Arms, Walking in the Cool of the Evening...
Does this mean that all metaphor, anthropomorphising God, is good, accurate and beneficial? Of course not.
_____________________________
When I have a little money I buy Books.
If any left over I buy food and clothes.
Erasmus
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 5:30:54 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Duh.
Pardon me, did you just say "duh" to me?
So compare 2 fictionalized characters to each other. Not a real person and find the reality lacking and encourage people to be the fairy tale.
Many things can speak to us. That doesn't mean we're to model our lives on them.
No. I was stating the obvious and commenting upon it re: how we are wired to seek out metaphors for the redemption we have been seeking and then given since Adam and Eve were created.
I"ve not said to base your life on fiction or to create your theology on the outpourings of a culture. God "speaks" to us through His Final Word, logos, Jesus, and through the writings He has left us, Scripture. Our understanding is illumined by the Holy Spirit.
Period. Full stop.
Yet, God can "speak" to us through His creation. And through the creative outputs of Man. Read Schaeffer, Rookmaaker, et al about how Man's desire to be imitatively creative is a reflection of the Creator.
For example, Johann Sebastian Bach is wildly popular in Japan. He is often referred to as the "Fifth Gospel Writer" because of the depth of his music and the soundness of the Scriptures that are set to this music. Can God use this music to reach a pagan nation? Yes. As long as there are churches and pastors and believers there for those that are seeking Him.
Crankius, as near as I can tell, you've read most of one book. So why aren't you going to the Ransomed Heart site for your information rather than those sites specifically designed to rebute his writings?
Here is a recommended reading list from Ransomed Heart Ministries:
Ransomed Heart: Recommended Reading
You will find CS Lewis, GK Chesterton, Thomas a Kempis, Francis Schaeffer, Larry Crabb...a definite mix, quite eclectic.
Most of us, I believe, are mixed bags of this type of eclecticism.
Regardless of what you think of John Eldredge, Ransomed Heart Ministries, or the RH Forum, I challenge each of us to read the original sources rather than those who write about what they heard or partially read. Especially those writings that seek to slash and burn such authors out of context.
As I said, I do not agree with everything Eldredge writes either. I don't agree with everything I read anywhere...except Scripture!
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 5:58:24 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
Posts: 103
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FYI:
Who are the folk that are looking at the theology of John Eldredge (not a theologian, but a trained counselor)? Are they theologians? Apologists?
The Bobgans have spoken on psychology and Christianity at numerous conferences and churches and on radio and television. Together they have authored 18 books. Deidre has also written Lord of the Dance: The Beauty of the Disciplined Life (Harvest House; EastGate).
Educational Background * Martin: University of Minnesota, B. A., B. S., M. A.; University of Colorado, Doctorate in Educational Psychology * Deidre: University of Minnesota, B. S.; University of California, M. A. in English.
Psycho-Heresy
Tim Challies is a blogger, author and web-designer from Ontario, Canada.
Discerning Reader
Just thought you'all would like to know...
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 6:01:23 PM
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draexo
Posts: 698
Joined: 1/26/2007
From: Saratoga County, New York
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quote:
ORIGINAL: THEREDCAPE
Any information on this group? I was linked to their website, and saw them refer the the Holy Spirit as the "wild goose", lot of celtic symbolism, and odd statements.
It was hard to see exactly what they believe, however. Does anyone have any information? Seemed very new agey to me.
"Scripture trumps" - John Eldredge
When referring to a revelation from God, it will never violate scripture.
As far as the Celts go, the Celt's called the Holy Spirit the "Wild Goose" - meaning God is free, wild, not domesticated.
I have found Randsomed Hearts teachings to be biblically based.
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The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 6:08:28 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4141
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quote:
Crankius, as near as I can tell, you've read most of one book. So why aren't you going to the Ransomed Heart site for your information rather than those sites specifically designed to rebute his writings?
The site I linked is a general book review site called Discerning Reader. They review all sorts of Christian books, and generally I agree with their reviews. Since I don't own a copy of Wild at Heart, I went there to see what they had to say about it, and I thought their review was interesting. BTW, Discerning Reader is not a site specifically built to rebut Eldredge.
I didn't like Wild at Heart, so I'm not really interested in reading more of his material.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 6:16:13 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
Posts: 103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
Crankius, as near as I can tell, you've read most of one book. So why aren't you going to the Ransomed Heart site for your information rather than those sites specifically designed to rebute his writings?
The site I linked is a general book review site called Discerning Reader. They review all sorts of Christian books, and generally I agree with their reviews. Since I don't own a copy of Wild at Heart, I went there to see what they had to say about it, and I thought their review was interesting. BTW, Discerning Reader is not a site specifically built to rebut Eldredge.
I didn't like Wild at Heart, so I'm not really interested in reading more of his material.
I stand corrected. Well, sit actually.
I am quite new here, and I got you and another poster mixed-up re: two different web-sites. Please accept my apologies.
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 6:27:07 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Now I'm gonna go over here into this corner and play with my Legos. Anyone care to join me?
May I join you?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 6:40:38 PM
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GroupW
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No sweat. For the record, I haven't swallowed any legos in at least the past half hour.
BT
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 7:23:54 PM
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lw9
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quote:
AoibhinnGrainne: I mean, this web-site is anti-Catholic. Anti-Willow Creek. Anti-everyone and everything who doesn't ascribe to the Five Basic Doctrines of The Fundamentals of 1909.
This website is made up of distinct individuals with distinct thoughts and personalities. This is not a forum of one. Some individuals are against certain things, others are not. I have never found this site to be a hive mind where everyone conforms to one opinion. You have only to look in any thread to see that. Everyone is allowed to ask questions, express their opinions and their thoughts, and all are welcome [and challenged] to back those opinions up scripturally.
There are those of us who do point out red flags when we see them. We do this for the benefit of others who might not be aware. Call it what you like, but openly and reasonably discussing theological problems is not a crime. We are not anti-everything. We are to stick to discussing and debating the issues rather than attacking individuals personally or resorting to abhorrent name calling and backstabbing.
Personally, I'm glad that kind of cowardly behavior is not tolerated here. We are free to test and compare everything to God's word here, and to do it in a Christian manner. If you disagree or agree with a particular view, you are free to respond in a Christian manner. That's how it works.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 4/24/2008 7:44:52 PM >
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 7:34:45 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4141
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
Tim Challies is a blogger, author and web-designer from Ontario, Canada.
Discerning Reader
Just thought you'all would like to know...
Aoi.
I already know who Tim is.
Discerning Reader linked to three other reviews. One problem with the theology in Wild at Heart is consistently cited by many reviewers--here it is noted by this reviewer, Mr. Wingerd:
quote:
His quote reads like this: "The heart of a man is like deep water . . ." The meaning of the sentence, as quoted by Eldredge, is that the subject "heart" is described and explained by the adjective phrase, "like deep water." The heart is like deep water, Eldredge claims. But the NKJ text actually reads like this: "Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water." In the biblical text, the subject of the sentence is not "heart," but rather, "Counsel." The simile, "like deep water," refers to the subject, "Counsel," not to the object of the prepositional phrase, "in the heart of man." So the Bible teaches us that counsel is like deep water.
To conclude and teach, as John Eldredge does, that "The heart of a man is like deep water," especially when his quotation of the verse capitalizes the first word as if it were actually the beginning of the sentence, is not to merely misinterpret the meaning of the text; it is to change and misrepresent the meaning of the text. This would not all be quite so serious if he had not built the entire theme of chapter one (and really, the whole book) on the meaning of his edited version of Proverbs 20:5.
This reviewer also made this interesting comment:
quote:
I was also fascinated when I learned what Eldredge says went wrong in the first place—how man's (deep) heart got lost, and why men feel the need to find it. I was disturbed to find that it didn't seem to have anything to do with sin. His understanding of the problem could be summarized like this: Eve (woman) is perfectly happy being domesticated because she was created inside the Garden of Eden. Adam (man) on the other hand, has always felt restless. He has always had this inner need for adventure, exploration, danger, etc.
Why does man have this need? Eldredge explains on pages 3 and 4: "Man was born in the outback, from the untamed part of creation. Only afterward is he brought to Eden. And ever since then boys have never been at home indoors, and men have had an insatiable longing to explore . . . The core of a man's heart is undomesticated and that is good. "
Do you hear what he is saying? Adam was better off—more suited to his environment— before God brought him to (or confined him in) the Garden of Eden. If Eldredge is right, then in a way it seems that God cursed Adam before he sinned. He took him out of the environment in which he would have been fulfilled, and placed him in an environment that would repress his deepest inner longings. And when Adam sinned—when he was kicked out of the garden—he actually got what he wanted. What the Bible portrays as a curse was really a blessing to Adam.
If you are really wanting to know about Eldredge, you should pick this book up and read through it. You'll get a pretty quick idea of his theology and how he views God and man.
Edit to add question:
Cult is such a strong term. Is there a reason why you (the OP) would think his ministries are a cult?
< Message edited by crankius -- 4/24/2008 8:43:01 PM >
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 7:38:52 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3396
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quote:
I mean, this web-site is anti-Catholic. Anti-Willow Creek. Anti-everyone and everything who doesn't ascribe to the Five Basic Doctrines of The Fundamentals of 1909.
Well, this thread isn't about CW, it's about Eldredge, so perhaps you might defend some of the things we've posted in opposition to his books/teachings with...oh, I don't know...SCRIPTURE! Would that be asking too much?
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
I weep for those who won't experience this because they have been deceived.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 7:38:53 PM
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ta_mosquito
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lw9 - she's talking about the link she quoted, not THIS forums web site.
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"When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the fire department generally uses water." ~Unknown
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 7:42:14 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
Posts: 103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
AoibhinnGrainne: I mean, this web-site is anti-Catholic. Anti-Willow Creek. Anti-everyone and everything who doesn't ascribe to the Five Basic Doctrines of The Fundamentals of 1909.
This website is made up of distinct individuals with distinct thoughts and personalities. This is not a forum of one. Some individuals are against certain things, others are not. I have never found this site to be a hive mind where everyone conforms to one opinion. Everyone is allowed to ask questions, express their opinions and their thoughts, and all are welcome [and challenged] to back those opinions up scripturally.
There are those of us who do point out red flags when we see them. We do this for the benefit of others who might not be aware. Call it what you like, but openly and reasonably discussing theological problems is not a crime. We stick to discussing and debating the issues rather than attacking individuals personally and resorting to abhorrent backstabbing.
Personally, I'm glad that kind of cowardly behavior is not tolerated here.
Forgive me...did I misunderstand something here?
The site to which I was referring in the bit you quoted me, above, is "Apologetics Coordination Team", a compendium of critical writers (nothing wrong with that) that all, in their own way, ascribe to a particular set of doctrinal beliefs, best articulated by The Fundamentals as originally published in 1909 (nothing wrong with that either).
Perhaps my inferrence is that the site managers are finding these essays and placing them in one place so as to facilitate the furtherance of their particular world-view (and there is certainly nothing wrong with that). Like Ransomed Heart.
But I am not talking about you'all here. Not at all!!!
Are you, perhaps, alluding to a particular thread on a particular web-site when you mention "abhorrent backstabbing"? I am not on that thread. And, if you like, you are welcome to go to Ransomed Heart's Forum and look me up:
Aoi's Profile
You will see that I no longer post there and haven't done since January 2008.
Perhaps you see what happens when words are taken out of context..."this" does not mean crosswalk.com...it means "http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel18.html". And I, personally, am taken aback by the manipulation of my post.
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 7:43:10 PM
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lw9
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quote:
ta_mosquito: lw9 - she's talking about the link she quoted, not THIS forums web site.
Ah!! If that's the case, then I totally misunderstood and truly apologize for my mistake!! Thank you for pointing this out!!
quote:
Perhaps you see what happens when words are taken out of context..."this" does not mean crosswalk.com...it means "http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel18.html". And I, personally, am taken aback by the manipulation of my post.
Honestly, I was not looking to take your words out of context but simply taking them as I read them. The 'This site' of your post sounded to me like you were referring to this site, and I do apologize. I will try to read more carefully in the future!
< Message edited by lw9 -- 4/24/2008 7:55:19 PM >
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 8:08:55 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
Posts: 103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
I mean, this web-site is anti-Catholic. Anti-Willow Creek. Anti-everyone and everything who doesn't ascribe to the Five Basic Doctrines of The Fundamentals of 1909.
Well, this thread isn't about CW, it's about Eldredge, so perhaps you might defend some of the things we've posted in opposition to his books/teachings with...oh, I don't know...SCRIPTURE! Would that be asking too much?
No, of course not. I just didn't think that's what you'all wanted since you are recommending I read about Eldredge's theology from someone NOT Eldredge!!!
quote:
His quote reads like this: "The heart of a man is like deep water . . ." The meaning of the sentence, as quoted by Eldredge, is that the subject "heart" is described and explained by the adjective phrase, "like deep water." The heart is like deep water, Eldredge claims. But the NKJ text actually reads like this: "Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water." In the biblical text, the subject of the sentence is not "heart," but rather, "Counsel." The simile, "like deep water," refers to the subject, "Counsel," not to the object of the prepositional phrase, "in the heart of man." So the Bible teaches us that counsel is like deep water.
To conclude and teach, as John Eldredge does, that "The heart of a man is like deep water," especially when his quotation of the verse capitalizes the first word as if it were actually the beginning of the sentence, is not to merely misinterpret the meaning of the text; it is to change and misrepresent the meaning of the text. This would not all be quite so serious if he had not built the entire theme of chapter one (and really, the whole book) on the meaning of his edited version of Proverbs 20:5.
I. Proverbs 20:5
You begin your criticism by stating that Eldredge ‘edits’ scripture. As your first example, you give Proverbs 20:5 regarding John’s claim that the heart is like deep water. Below, I have listed several translations of the same verse. Please bear with me.
5 The purposes of a man's heart are deep waters,
but a man of understanding draws them out. – NIV
5A plan in the heart of a man is like deep water,
But a man of understanding draws it out. – NAS
5 Though good advice lies deep within the heart,
a person with understanding will draw it out. – NLT
5 Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out - KJV
5 Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water,
But a man of understanding will draw it out. – NKJV
5 Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; But a man of understanding will draw it out - ASV
5 The heart's real intentions are like deep water; but a person with discernment draws them out. CJB
Counsel: etsah: counsel, advice, purpose
Heart: Leb:
inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
inner part, midst
midst (of things)
heart (of man)
soul, heart (of man)
mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
conscience
heart (of moral character)
as seat of appetites
as seat of emotions and passions 1a
as seat of courage
You quote the NKJV by writing “Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water…” However, it is just as important to include the rest of the verse which reads “But a man of understanding will draw it out.” The rest of this verse confirms the origin of this ‘Counsel’ (or ‘purpose’ or ‘plan’) as coming from within the heart.
If the purpose or counsel of a man’s heart is like deep water, does it not stand to reason that the heart which contains it is also like deep water, or perhaps more so? Even if you say ‘no,’ it is clear the rest of the verse suggests an act of reaching deep within something in order to draw out the counsel or plan or purposes.
The adjective, as you say, does refer to Counsel in the sentence structure, but the entire verse is referring to the act of understanding which is like drawing something out of deep water, not just the counsel. This is clear by the rest of the verse (which you omit in your criticism). This means the heart is like deep water from which counsel is drawn.
I believe the ‘heart’ Eldredge refers to includes the ‘counsel’ of the heart. It is this ‘counsel’ or ‘purpose’ or ‘plan’ that he is referring to when he discusses ‘desires’ given to us by God in order to provide direction. In short, your criticism regarding Proverbs 20:5 does not change the message, intent, or meaning of the book. In truth, it validates it even further, which, I believe, is the reason Eldredge did not feel the need to include the entire verse. The meaning is the same but for the purpose of the book, it is much simpler to bypass the process and go right to the result…the heart is like deep water.
Again, Eldredge is not a theologian. He is not Jonathan Edwards. He is not Augusatine. He is not RC Sproul.
Right now, I am late picking my Husband up from the airport. I will happily take more of this on as I am able.
And, again, I do not agree with everything that Eldredge writes.
But I also think it's bad form to do a hit and run on another's web-site and criticise the same when you've not been there, read the books, or experienced the ministry...
But that's just me, I guess.
Aoi.
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Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 8:17:43 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 1433
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: offline
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In fairness, there was a bit of bad form in evidence everywhere on that score. I see noone that is innocent.
BT
(Feel free to delete if deemed inappropriate. Just a comment from a not so innocent observer.)
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