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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/24/2008 10:02:37 PM
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lw9
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quote:
Crankius: Edit to add question:
Cult is such a strong term. Is there a reason why you (the OP) would think his ministries are a cult?
Agreed. Do the teachings raise some real concerns and red flags for me? Yes, definitely, and I think it's very possible that these types of teachings can be a jumping off point into some dangerous territory, but so far from what I'm seeing I would not classify this as a cult.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 9:51:10 AM
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THEREDCAPE
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So some of you would say that this is more of a case of doctrinal error ; perhaps out of ignorance of the teacher, than out and out heresy?
I think it needs to be pointed out that you can not always judge a teacher or writer by their adherants or fans.
Mr. Eldredge may have off base people that adhere to his teachings, that does not mean he himself approves of their lifestyles, actions, or words.
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Scripture must be the standard, not experience.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 10:10:57 AM
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earthless
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Let's put it this way.. with all of the stuff he has indeed said/taught - I would not waste any time lending an ear to him for spiritual/life input.
There are indeed some doctrinally sound preachers out there that I'd rather spend that time on.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 11:43:12 AM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
I. Proverbs 20:5
You begin your criticism by stating that Eldredge ‘edits’ scripture...
I can’t answer for Mr. Wingerd, the author of the review I quoted.
Pr 20:5 Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out.
I’ve examined the passage though, looking through lots of translations and examining the original language, and this is what it is saying:
The purposes in the heart of a man are like deep water (hard to see his purposes, designs, counsel); but another man of intelligence, understanding, or skill, can draw it out of him, to know his intents/purposes.
The verse is giving kudos to those with the skill and discernment to draw out of a man what his true thinking is. I like the note in my Geneva Bible—“…the wise man will know a man either by his words or manners.”
Eldredge really did edit the verse, but he is not the first Christian author to selectively quote words from verses to get the meaning he wants.
A post on the heart issue coming up...
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 11:50:19 AM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Let's put it this way.. with all of the stuff he has indeed said/taught - I would not waste any time lending an ear to him for spiritual/life input.
There are indeed some doctrinally sound preachers out there that I'd rather spend that time on.
Not wasting my time either! I've seen more than enough...red flags waving everywhere!
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~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
I weep for those who won't experience this because they have been deceived.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 11:51:45 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 1504
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quote:
ORIGINAL: THEREDCAPE
I think it needs to be pointed out that you can not always judge a teacher or writer by their adherants or fans.
Mr. Eldredge may have off base people that adhere to his teachings, that does not mean he himself approves of their lifestyles, actions, or words.
That's a fair and important thing to keep in mind always. I wish people would not judge Christ by my actions here on this earth. I know they do, and though I do my best to reflect well on Him, I often fail.
No different, really. The same can be said for those who regard John Piper, Sproul, (insert orthodox evangelical name here) as important teachers. It's a fight all Christians battle.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 4/25/2008 12:01:35 PM >
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 11:57:09 AM
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crankius
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Jer 17:9 - The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
Scripture makes it clear that the heart is deceitful and that we cannot even know our own heart. Only the Lord sees to our heart.
So I question when Eldredge states things like this:
quote:
Deep in a man's heart are some fundamental questions that simply cannot be answered at the kitchen table. Who am I? What am I made of? What am I destined for? It is fear that keeps a man at home where things are neat and orderly and under his control. But the answers to his deepest questions are not to be found on television or in the refrigerator. Out there on the burning desert sands, lost in a trackless waste, Moses received his life's mission and purpose. He is called out, called up into something much bigger than he ever imagined, much more serious than CEO or "prince of Egypt." Under foreign stars, in the dead of night, Jacob received a new name, his real name. No longer is he a shrewd business negotiator, but now he is one who wrestles with God. The wilderness trial of Christ is, at its core, a test of his identity. "If you are who you think you are ..." If a man is ever to find out who he is and what he's here for, he has got to take that journey for himself.
He has got to get his heart back.
And later, he states:
quote:
And thus the heart of a man is driven into the high country, into remote places, like a wounded animal looking for cover. Women know this, and lament that they have no access to their man's heart. Men know it, too, but are often unable to explain why their heart is missing. They know their heart is on the run, but they often do not know where to pick up the trail. The church wags its head and wonders why it can't get more men to sign up for its programs. The answer is simply this: We have not invited a man to know and live from his deep heart.
This is poor theology. We all know why we are here, and it has nothing at all to do with getting our hearts back. Our aim is to give glory to God forever. This is the desire God will satisfy within us—men and women—that we may delight ourselves in Him, and He will give us Himself (which is the desires of our heart when we delight ourselves in Him).
quote:
There are three desires I find written so deeply into my heart I know now I can no longer disregard them without losing my soul. They are core to who and what I am and yearn to be. I gaze into boyhood, I search the pages of literature, I listen carefully to many, many men, and I am convinced these desires are universal, a clue into masculinity itself. They may be misplaced, forgotten, or misdirected, but in the heart of every man is a desperate desire for a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue.
Fundamentally, I disagree with his assessment of the problem he describes, and I disagree with his solution.
I guarantee you the man who seeks to fulfill the desire of his heart through “…a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue” will only be unsatisfied, like a man always in a midlife identity crisis, seeking after a desire that cannot be fulfilled. Scripture makes it clear that the man who seeks satisfaction in women, in chariots, in actions, will only find emptiness. The man who chooses to pursue glorifying God with all his heart is the man who will be satisfied.
Ps 86:12 - I will praise You, O Lord my God, with all my heart, And I will glorify Your name forevermore.
If anyone would like to read an excerpt from the first chapter of his book, click here.
While I personally didn't like Wild at Heart, I cannot see how Ransomed Heart Ministries could possibly be a cult.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 12:17:11 PM
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GroupW
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I agree - the language he uses here doesn't work for me. To some degree though I think we get a bit tied up in words and miss the point he's trying to make. I don't think he would disagree that the heart of man in it's natural state is a very sorry sight. Nonetheless, his books are written to Christians. Christ is redeeming my heart as we speak, making things new. My job is to allow that, and seek it out. If Christ is redeeming my heart, will he not redeem my desires as well so that I might seek them out and pursue them? Not that I will ever attain this perfectly, but may I not make the attempt?
To a degree, his message has some timely features that are worth considering. Is it of any use to be doctrinally pure as the driven snow, but to fail to protect the weak, visit the imprisoned, feed the widow, and house the poor? Going back to C.S. Lewis' quote, if I focus too much on either one, I'm essentially trying to argue over which blade in a pair of scissors is most important. In some fashion, I tend to think the church generally has excised Matthew 25 from their collective bibles (drifting a bit on that one).
He has other writings that I disagree with as well, some quite strongly. His take on discerning God's will for example is not one that I can sign up for. Nonetheless, I would not put him in the category of cult, heretic, or even serious danger zone. He raises some interesting questions that are worthy of discussion, and he writes some things I'm not comfortable with. I find objectionable things in the writings of most Christian writers, though, so I'm not about to get too worked up.
I'm quite solidly in the camp that no writer has it 100% correct. Earthless does not have it 100% correct, and neither does GroupW. However, as long as we can all agree on Christ crucified and his grace toward us, I'm not inclined to get my unders in a bunch.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 4/25/2008 12:23:16 PM >
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 12:36:50 PM
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lw9
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Hi THEREDCAPE:
quote:
So some of you would say that this is more of a case of doctrinal error ; perhaps out of ignorance of the teacher, than out and out heresy?
The whole impression I'm coming up with from the book excerpts and his articles and views on the website is that he started out with an idea of how things should be and is bending scriptures to fit that idea. He wants to restore a 'lost message of the gospel' [June 02, June '05 newsletter]. Page after page I'm reading this strange over-emphasis on our hearts and presenting men as fantasy adventure warrior heroes [ala 'Lord of the Rings' type stuff], and this is what his ministry seems to revolve around. On the site, I'm seriously left wondering where Jesus Christ is in all of this since the focus is so heavily on our hearts and our desires.
On the website he shows a clear disdain for what he calls organized religion - and I'm thinking to him that might mean any established denomination since he talks about churches collectively - and this may have resulted in his trying to find a 'better path' to God. The problem lies in his proposed solution of following heart and desire, which contrary to scripture he repeatedly calls good and pure. This path is not sound, and one small error like that can so easily lead to major errors down the road.
I'm not calling it heresy and certainly not a cult. At this point I'll say that he's editing scripture to suit his ideas, as Crankius has pointed out. That's still not a good thing. As earthless wisely said, why waste time with this ministry when there are donctrinally sound ministries out there.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 4/25/2008 1:04:44 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 2:20:01 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
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Context. It's an important concept. And since Eldredge is being accused of taking Scripture out of context and, in some instances (as stated above), making it to fit his personal theology, let's look at a bit of Scripture in it's context:
Jeremiah 17:5-11 ~ 5 Here is what ADONAI says: "A curse on the person who trusts in humans, who relies on merely human strength, whose heart turns away from ADONAI. 6 He will be like a tamarisk in the 'Aravah - when relief comes, it is unaffected; for it lives in the sun-baked desert, in salty, uninhabited land. 7 Blessed is the man who trusts in ADONAI; ADONAI will be his security. 8 He will be like a tree planted near water; it spreads out its roots by the river; it does not notice when heat comes; and its foliage is luxuriant; it is not anxious in a year of drought but keeps on yielding fruit. 9 "The heart is more deceitful than anything else and mortally sick. Who can fathom it? 10 I, ADONAI, search the heart; I test inner motivations; in order to give to everyone what his actions and conduct deserve." (CJB)
Ezekial 11:14-21 ~ 14 Then the word of ADONAI came to me: 15 "Human being, it is to your kinsmen - your brothers, your relatives and the whole house of Isra'el - that the people living in Yerushalayim have said, 'Get away from ADONAI! This land has been given to us to possess!' 16 Therefore, say that Adonai ELOHIM says this: 'True, I removed them far away among the nations and scattered them among the countries; nevertheless, I have been a little sanctuary for them in the countries to which they have gone.' 17 Therefore, say that Adonai ELOHIM says this: '"I will gather you from the peoples and collect you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give the land of Isra'el to you." 18 Then they will go there and remove all its loathsome things and disgusting practices, 19 and I will give them unity of heart. "I will put a new spirit among you." I will remove from their bodies the hearts of stone and give them hearts of flesh; 20 so that they will live by my regulations, obey my rulings and act by them. Then they will be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts go after the heart of their loathsome things and disgusting practices, I will bring [the consequences of] their ways on their own heads,' says Adonai ELOHIM."
Isaiah 61:1-3 ~ 1 The Spirit of Adonai ELOHIM is upon me, because ADONAI has anointed me to announce good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted; to proclaim freedom to the captives, to let out into light those bound in the dark; 2 to proclaim the year of the favor of ADONAI and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn, 3 yes, provide for those in Tziyon who mourn, giving them garlands instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, a cloak of praise instead of a heavy spirit, so that they will be called oaks of righteousness planted by ADONAI, in which he takes pride.
The heart is more deceitful than anything else and mortally sick...ie, sick unto death. Who can fathom it? I, God, search the heart and test the inner motivations to give everyone what their actions and conduct deserve.
Hmmm...
There is MORE to this verse than that bit which is constantly quoted, yes? It seems to me that the Lord, through Jeremiah, is saying to us that we fool ourselves because, even when we have the best of intentions, the most altruistic of motives, our hearts are mortally sick. Only God can truly judge who we really are. This sounds like a call for true humility. Not post-salvific eternally depraved worm-hood.
But what else does Scripture say about this?
Matthew 5:17-20 ~ 17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
Luke 6:40-45 ~ 40 A talmid is not above his rabbi; but each one, when he is fully trained, will be like his rabbi. 41 So why do you see the splinter in your brother's eye, but not notice the log in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me remove the splinter from your eye,' when you yourself don't see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the log out of your own eye; then you will see clearly, so that you can remove the splinter from your brother's eye! 43 "For no good tree produces bad fruit, nor does a bad tree produce good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit -- figs aren't picked from thorn bushes, nor grapes from a briar patch. 45 The good person produces good things from the store of good in his heart, while the evil person produces evil things from the store of evil in his heart. For his mouth speaks what overflows from his heart.
John 12:37-41 ~ 37 Even though he had performed so many miracles in their presence, they still did not put their trust in him, 38 in order that what Yesha`yahu the prophet had said might be fulfilled, "ADONAI, who has believed our report? To whom has the arm of ADONAI been revealed?" 39 The reason they could not believe was -- as Yesha`yahu said elsewhere -- 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they do not see with their eyes, understand with their hearts, and do t'shuvah, so that I could heal them." 41 (Yesha`yahu said these things because he saw the Sh'khinah of Yeshua and spoke about him.)
Acts 2:14-36 ~ 14 Then Kefa stood up with the Eleven and raised his voice to address them: "You Judeans, and all of you staying here in Yerushalayim! Let me tell you what this means! Listen carefully to me! 15 "These people aren't drunk, as you suppose - it's only nine in the morning. 16 No, this is what was spoken about through the prophet Yo'el: 'ADONAI says: "In the Last Days, I will pour out from my Spirit upon everyone. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my slaves, both men and women, will I pour out from my Spirit in those days; and they will prophesy. 19 I will perform miracles in the sky above and signs on the earth below blood, fire and thick smoke. 20 The sun will become dark and the moon blood before the great and fearful Day of ADONAI comes. 21 And then, whoever calls on the name of ADONAI will be saved."'c 22 "Men of Isra'el! Listen to this! Yeshua from Natzeret was a man demonstrated to you to have been from God by the powerful works, miracles and signs that God performed through him in your presence. You yourselves know this. 23 This man was arrested in accordance with God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge; and, through the agency of persons not bound by the Torah, you nailed him up on a stake and killed him! 24 "But God has raised him up and freed him from the suffering of death; it was impossible that death could keep its hold on him. 25 For David says this about him: 'I saw ADONAI always before me, for he is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken. 26 For this reason, my heart was glad; and my tongue rejoiced; and now my body too will live on in the certain hope 27 that you will not abandon me to Sh'ol or let your Holy One see decay. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; you will fill me with joy by your presence.' 29 "Brothers, I know I can say to you frankly that the patriarch David died and was buried - his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, since he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that one of his descendants would sit on his throne, 31 he was speaking in advance about the resurrection of the Messiah, that it was he who was not abandoned in Sh'ol and whose flesh did not see decay. 32 God raised up this Yeshua! And we are all witnesses of it! 33 "Moreover, he has been exalted to the right hand of God; has received from the Father what he promised, namely, the Ruach HaKodesh; and has poured out this gift, which you are both seeing and hearing. 34 For David did not ascend into heaven. But he says, 35 'ADONAI said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."' 36 Therefore, let the whole house of Isra'el know beyond doubt that God has made him both Lord and Messiah - this Yeshua, whom you executed on a stake!"
Have we been set free from our captivity? healed of our disease? Have our hearts of stone been replaced with hearts of flesh? Are the foreskins of our hearts finally circumcised in the Lord (Jeremiah 4:4 ~ 4 "People of Y'hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim, circumcise yourselves for ADONAI, remove the foreskins of your heart! Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire, burning so hot that no one can quench it, because of how evil your actions are.)?
Romans 7:14-25 ~ 14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit; but as for me, I am bound to the old nature, sold to sin as a slave. 15 I don't understand my own behavior - I don't do what I want to do; instead, I do the very thing I hate! 16 Now if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am agreeing that the Torah is good. 17 But now it is no longer "the real me" doing it, but the sin housed inside me. 18 For I know that there is nothing good housed inside me - that is, inside my old nature. I can want what is good, but I can't do it! 19 For I don't do the good I want; instead, the evil that I don't want is what I do! 20 But if I am doing what "the real me" doesn't want, it is no longer "the real me" doing it but the sin housed inside me. 21 So I find it to be the rule, a kind of perverse "torah," that although I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me! 22 For in my inner self I completely agree with God's Torah; 23 but in my various parts, I see a different "torah," one that battles with the Torah in my mind and makes me a prisoner of sin's "torah," which is operating in my various parts. 24 What a miserable creature I am! Who will rescue me from this body bound for death? 25 Thanks be to God [, he will]! - through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord! To sum up: with my mind, I am a slave of God's Torah; but with my old nature, I am a slave of sin's "Torah."
Paul, in the "do-be-do-be-do" section of Romans, explains how sin, in the "old nature", has control of his "various parts". YET there is another part of Paul, in his "inner self" (eso: the internal inner man; the soul, conscience), that is "at war" with the "sin torah" that is operating "in my various parts".
So...
Is our inner self, our soul (heart? nous? perhaps?), transformed by the saving grace of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit through salvation in Christ and His redemptive work? OR are we still totally depraved, in our hearts, minds, and bodies, clothed in righteousness given us by Christ?
Tough question which goes to the heart of the matter. Theological worlds collide!
If Christ came to complete the Law and the Prophets, does that mean we are still that which is described under the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 17:9) Or do we take our identity from that which has been described under the New Covenant, that we are healed of our diseases, set free, with new hearts of flesh, washed clean, circumcised; we are to be holy because I am holy (1Peter 1:14-16 ~ 14 As people who obey God, do not let yourselves be shaped by the evil desires you used to have when you were still ignorant. 15 On the contrary, following the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in your entire way of life; 16 since the Tanakh {Leviticus 11:45, 19:2,20:26} says, "You are to be holy because I am holy.").
In any case, I think it disingenuous that a cathetical definition of who we are and what we are created for is inferred to be Scripture. (The chief end of Man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever...).
Is this what Scripture teaches or the Shorter Catechism? Are we careful not to elevate secondary standards to the level of Scripture?
But I digress...
Perhaps, the point that you'all may be missing, is that once a Man is saved in Christ then what? In the post-modern American Church, as I understand from what I have read and heard anecdotally, most men are bored to tears. Most marriages are failing miserably. Many men hate their jobs.
Why?
Could it be that there is something in the masculine heart that would like to find a way to bring the joy of the Lord into his daily, mundane, routine, commute? And so on and so on into every aspect of his life???
How?
John Eldredge is at least making a stab at an answer. Or, he's identified a bit of the problem: realising that men have abdicated the church in astonishingly large numbers for a long time now...
Francis Schaeffer, for example, chucked post-war America and (ad)ventured forth to start L'Abri with his Beauty, Edith, at his side, fighting the intellectual demons of nihilism and philosophical post-modernism. And, by God's Grace, getting accomplishing much.
What are you'all doing?
Aoi.
_____________________________
Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 2:47:32 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4833
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
What are you'all doing?
Aoi.
Last time I checked my Bible, I do not recall seeing a checklist of requirements I had to meet before I could test something in light of Scripture.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 2:51:27 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4156
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You are quite the defender of Eldredge.
I read your entire post, but it didn't change my opinion.
quote:
I guarantee you the man who seeks to fulfill the desire of his heart through “…a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue” will only be unsatisfied, like a man always in a midlife identity crisis, seeking after a desire that cannot be fulfilled. Scripture makes it clear that the man who seeks satisfaction in women, in chariots, in actions, will only find emptiness. The man who chooses to pursue glorifying God with all his heart is the man who will be satisfied.
Gee, Crankius, great post! 
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 3:37:32 PM
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AoibhinnGrainne
Posts: 103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne
What are you'all doing?
Aoi.
Last time I checked my Bible, I do not recall seeing a checklist of requirements I had to meet before I could test something in light of Scripture.
As it should be! Good for you!!! And that is not what my largely rhetorical question is referring to.
My Bible states that "faith without works is dead" James 2:26). And "where my treasure is, there also is my heart" (Matthew 6:21).
All I was asking is what you'all here are doing to enrich the Church, your Communities, your Families to stave off the problems inherent in post-modern America and the post-modern American Church.
Ie, anyone written any books lately?
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
You are quite the defender of Eldredge.
I read your entire post, but it didn't change my opinion.
quote:
I guarantee you the man who seeks to fulfill the desire of his heart through “…a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue” will only be unsatisfied, like a man always in a midlife identity crisis, seeking after a desire that cannot be fulfilled. Scripture makes it clear that the man who seeks satisfaction in women, in chariots, in actions, will only find emptiness. The man who chooses to pursue glorifying God with all his heart is the man who will be satisfied.
Gee, Crankius, great post!
Actually, there is quite a bit of irony in my defending Eldredge in this way...
And I defend pretty much anyone who is being misrepresented by a compendium of folk who've yet to read their works. I believe that to be intellectually dishonest.
I guess I am too Irish to not feel the heat of it when there is a lack of honesty in the "inner parts".
BTW, I am not interested in changing your mind. I don't come here with an agenda. I could care less what you think. What I do care about is how Eldredge and Ransomed Heart was misrepresented.
quote:
ORIGINAL: THEREDCAPE
From what I am reading at the site, life is sort of a medieval fantasy world where handsome knights ride up on horseback and rescue beautiful maidens whose real desire is to be rescued by the big strong men. 
sounds like some sanitized version of dungeons and dragons.
Yeah...there is quite a bit of that there. Each site has their own "flavour", their own "vocabulary". There is a lot of Lord of the Rings at Ransomed Heart. But then, so much of what I read here is cultural as well. Crosswalk.com has it's own vocab, it's own flavour as well...
It's the difference between a very dry red wine and a sweet dessert wine.
Or, if you like, a plain cup o'joe and sweet tea.
Aoi.
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Be a woman so wrapped up in the Heart of God, that a Man of God has to search the Heart of God to find you...
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 3:45:26 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4156
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
And I defend pretty much anyone who is being misrepresented by a compendium of folk who've yet to read their works. I believe that to be intellectually dishonest.
This would apply to me, except, I did read most of Wild at Heart. I say "most" because some parts bored me so I didn't read every word.
I also quoted his material and linked to it.
The reviews I linked also quoted directly from his material.
I don't think he is being misrepresented--I think there is an honest disagreement about his writings.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
IS CHURCH YOUR IDOL?
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 3:45:38 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3641
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
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I have read quite a bit of Eldridge and also his wife.
IMO, it's much more than a subtle difference or nuance, but I would not go so far as to say "cult."
However, I cannot in good conscience recommend their books.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 3:49:13 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 1504
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: online
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A fair and honest position.
So what makes you say "more than a nuance, less than a cult"?
Having read it, what words might you put on it to describe it?
Curious.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 4:14:45 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1207
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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AoibhinnGrainne: And I defend pretty much anyone who is being misrepresented by a compendium of folk who've yet to read their works. I believe that to be intellectually dishonest.
BTW, I am not interested in changing your mind. I don't come here with an agenda. I could care less what you think. What I do care about is how Eldredge and Ransomed Heart was misrepresented.
So... Eldredge's own newsletters and articles on Eldredges own webite don't count?? Is he lying or misrepresenting himself when he writes these things down and publishes them publically for all to see on his website?? I'm simply taking him at his word in reading through his material.
quote:
All I was asking is what you'all here are doing to enrich the Church, your Communities, your Families to stave off the problems inherent in post-modern America and the post-modern American Church.
That would be for another thread entirely since the topic of this particular one is about the writings of Eldredge.
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: RANSOMED HEART MINSTRIES & JOHN ELDREDGE: CULT? - 4/25/2008 4:34:06 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 1504
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
However, I think his ministry has much error within it.
Where? No axe to grind here, just wondering. There are some places where I see error and others where I think it's more an issue of language & style. At any rate, where I see error I don't perceive it as fatal and not a hill I would particularly choose to die on. Curious as to your opinions specifically.
(Edit: No hurry to answer. Traveling thru Monday)
< Message edited by GroupW -- 4/25/2008 4:46:41 PM >
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