RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pledge to Flag
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/26/2008 5:31:34 PM
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lightshineon
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I do not pledge to those things. I pledge to be under God. I pledge unity being under God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
well what do you suggest? I mean I do not believe in those things, just like you. So are we not walking in unity.
If you don't believe in those things why pledge to them? Or is the pledge whatever a person makes of it? If so, does it really have any meaning? And if that's the cas, why bother?
John
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 4/26/2008 5:37:36 PM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/26/2008 6:10:23 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2956
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I do not pledge to those things. I pledge to be under God. I pledge unity being under God.
So the pledge it whatever you wish it to be...
John
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/26/2008 6:55:52 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3311
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Yes that is what I want it to be. Is that not acceptable?
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I do not pledge to those things. I pledge to be under God. I pledge unity being under God.
So the pledge it whatever you wish it to be...
John
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/26/2008 7:07:34 PM
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lightshineon
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My kids know what they are saying, when I was a kid, I also understood, besides, it called us all to order in the classroom.
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
I believe her act is unchristian! The Bible teaches us to "Give what to Cesar to Cesar and what is to God to God." Her behaviour implies trouble-making nature, creepy, and misrepresentation of Christianity that teaches us to love and respect one another including the government.
It is sad to say that those negative Christians are the very ones who spoil the reputation of Christianity and Christians.  
Even if you were taking that verse in context, which you aren't, the law explicitly gives students the right to abstain from saying the pledge. "Caesar" isn't even saying that you owe allegiance to "him," "he" says it's optional.
What I find creepy is that so many people think it's perfectly acceptable to have children mindlessly recite a pledge of allegiance to any organization w/o having much idea of what it is that they're saying.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/26/2008 8:45:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2956
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Yes that is what I want it to be. Is that not acceptable?
You surely have the right to have the pledge mean whatever it is to you, but doesn't that make it something other than what it is?
Given this revelation of sorts is there still a matter of reciting the pledge that has anything to do with the following?
Loyalty to the nation? Service and sacrifice of those who have been and are in the Armed Forces? Things you mentioned prior...
And on what grounds do you believe the act of not swearing allegiance to the flag is unchristian as you agreed with another post? You make the pledge into something of your own and yet it’s unchristian for a Christian to recite the pledge? I don’t understand that logic…
John
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/26/2008 11:23:19 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3311
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I am sorry, I do not undestand what you are saying.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Yes that is what I want it to be. Is that not acceptable?
You surely have the right to have the pledge mean whatever it is to you, but doesn't that make it something other than what it is?
Given this revelation of sorts is there still a matter of reciting the pledge that has anything to do with the following?
Loyalty to the nation? Service and sacrifice of those who have been and are in the Armed Forces? Things you mentioned prior...
And on what grounds do you believe the act of not swearing allegiance to the flag is unchristian as you agreed with another post? You make the pledge into something of your own and yet it’s unchristian for a Christian to recite the pledge? I don’t understand that logic…
John
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/26/2008 11:38:08 PM
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ReadingAlong
Posts: 4
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
She has the right to sit during the pledge.
She has the right to sit but I don't see any theological reason not to recite it. There is nothing in the pledge that says you are worshipping the state. Allegiance does not equal homage. JW's, I thought, were the only major sect that advocated this.
I think the theological reason is a literal reading from Matthew 5:
33 "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.'
34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;
35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black.
37 Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
I think, based on this, that some Christians won't swear an oath in court either; and that is also their legal right.
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/26/2008 11:41:43 PM
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lightshineon
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I have my opinion, and I guess we all just have to do what we have to consider is the right thing.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/27/2008 3:00:10 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 324
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
I Pledge Alligence to the Flag of the (United) States of America, and to the Republic in which (we )stand, (One) nation (under,) God (indivisible), with liberty and justice for all. Now that suggest Unity, not worship, we under God, are like minded. So what is wrong with it? No bowing offering sacrifices to the flag, but a pledge to unity, which without, we will fail. Are we unified under God?
That pledge is about being unified as a nation, under some vaguely referenced divine figure. I very much doubt God is all that concerned about us being unified as nations in this world. Unified as the citizens of the kingdom of Christ, sure, but that has nothing to do with allegiance to any worldly government.
Plus, in my opinion, this "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" business is a bit irrelevant. Jesus was talking about money, not allegiance. I cannot serve two masters.
All of this before the question of whether, theologically, we should be giving oaths or pledges to begin with.
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/27/2008 3:23:46 AM
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dbark
Posts: 120
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
I Pledge Alligence to the Flag of the (United) States of America, and to the Republic in which (we )stand, (One) nation (under,) God (indivisible), with liberty and justice for all. Now that suggest Unity, not worship, we under God, are like minded. So what is wrong with it? No bowing offering sacrifices to the flag, but a pledge to unity, which without, we will fail. Are we unified under God?
That pledge is about being unified as a nation, under some vaguely referenced divine figure. I very much doubt God is all that concerned about us being unified as nations in this world. Unified as the citizens of the kingdom of Christ, sure, but that has nothing to do with allegiance to any worldly government.
Plus, in my opinion, this "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" business is a bit irrelevant. Jesus was talking about money, not allegiance. I cannot serve two masters.
All of this before the question of whether, theologically, we should be giving oaths or pledges to begin with.
Good post, I agree. The fact that God is referred to seems to be a decisive factor to some despite the fact that the nation is not united under God - our God (the Christian God), the United States does not have a state religion and was intentional in the very beginning to take steps to prevent a theocracy in America. There is no unity under God in America, so why pretend there is by swearing allegiance to a nation that does not recognize God's Lordship?
To those who believe it is un-Christian to not recite the pledge of allegiance, what will you do if you find your country behaving immorally or instructing you to behave immorally? Refuse to obey the nation you swore your allegiance to? That doesn't seem very "Christian" to me.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/27/2008 4:42:30 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2258
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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I don't understand pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth. I do understand being grateful for the United States of America and the good things in and about this country that God has blessed us with. I thank God for this country.
Amish and Mennonites do not say the Pledge of Allegiance. Do people believe that absolutely none of them are Christians?
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/27/2008 2:20:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2956
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I am sorry, I do not undestand what you are saying.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Yes that is what I want it to be. Is that not acceptable?
You surely have the right to have the pledge mean whatever it is to you, but doesn't that make it something other than what it is?
Given this revelation of sorts is there still a matter of reciting the pledge that has anything to do with the following?
Loyalty to the nation? Service and sacrifice of those who have been and are in the Armed Forces? Things you mentioned prior...
And on what grounds do you believe the act of not swearing allegiance to the flag is unchristian as you agreed with another post? You make the pledge into something of your own and yet it’s unchristian for a Christian to recite the pledge? I don’t understand that logic…
John
Real quick...
You change the meaning of the pledge to fit your view of things... No problem there.. Certainly your prerogative..
In prior posts you spoke of, loyalty to the nation and sacrifice of those who have been and are in the Armed Forces in regards to people not wishing to recite the pledge... Given you bend the pledge to fit your personal view of things what does loyalty to the nation and sacrifice of those who have been and are in the Armed Forces have to do with anything?
In post 42 you posted...
That is my unpopular opinion also.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
I believe her act is unchristian. The Bible teaches us to be "Give what to Cesar to Cesar and what is to God to God." Her behaviour implies trouble making nature, creepy and misrepresentation of Christianity that teaches us to love an respect every one including the governmental.
It is sad to say that those negative Christians are the very ones who spoil the reputation of Christianity and Christians
On what grounds do you believe the act of not swearing allegiance to the flag is unchristian as you agreed with another post?
You make the pledge into something of your own and yet it’s unchristian for a Christian to recite the pledge?
I don’t understand that logic…
John
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/27/2008 5:33:14 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3311
Joined: 4/11/2005
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I did not bend anything John, I believe that is what the pledge always stood for. I am not saying someone is not a Christian if they think different, just wondering someones motavation ( the real one) Do you sit when, the National Anthem is played? If this is too personal, don't comment. I am just wondering about you, and others who stated your views on the flag? Would you salute the flag, or sit? Only comment if you feel you want to. Blessings 
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I am sorry, I do not undestand what you are saying.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Yes that is what I want it to be. Is that not acceptable?
You surely have the right to have the pledge mean whatever it is to you, but doesn't that make it something other than what it is?
Given this revelation of sorts is there still a matter of reciting the pledge that has anything to do with the following?
Loyalty to the nation? Service and sacrifice of those who have been and are in the Armed Forces? Things you mentioned prior...
And on what grounds do you believe the act of not swearing allegiance to the flag is unchristian as you agreed with another post? You make the pledge into something of your own and yet it’s unchristian for a Christian to recite the pledge? I don’t understand that logic…
John
Real quick...
You change the meaning of the pledge to fit your view of things... No problem there.. Certainly your prerogative..
In prior posts you spoke of, loyalty to the nation and sacrifice of those who have been and are in the Armed Forces in regards to people not wishing to recite the pledge... Given you bend the pledge to fit your personal view of things what does loyalty to the nation and sacrifice of those who have been and are in the Armed Forces have to do with anything?
In post 42 you posted...
That is my unpopular opinion also.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
I believe her act is unchristian. The Bible teaches us to be "Give what to Cesar to Cesar and what is to God to God." Her behaviour implies trouble making nature, creepy and misrepresentation of Christianity that teaches us to love an respect every one including the governmental.
It is sad to say that those negative Christians are the very ones who spoil the reputation of Christianity and Christians
On what grounds do you believe the act of not swearing allegiance to the flag is unchristian as you agreed with another post?
You make the pledge into something of your own and yet it’s unchristian for a Christian to recite the pledge?
I don’t understand that logic…
John
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 4/27/2008 5:41:00 PM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/27/2008 8:44:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2956
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I did not bend anything John, I believe that is what the pledge always stood for.
You said:I do not pledge to those things. I pledge to be under God. I pledge unity being under God.
I asked:So the pledge it whatever you wish it to be...
You replied:Yes that is what I want it to be. Is that not acceptable?
I am not saying you bend anything... You said you make the pledge into something you wish it to be...
That's fine, but the pledge is what it is, and I don't understand how you can judge others regarding it if you make it out to be something personal...
I take from your view of the pledge to the flag that it's all about God, is that correct?
Btw.. I believe from past threads on this subject the origins of the pledge was to sell flags...
quote:
I am not saying someone is not a Christian if they think different, just wondering someones motavation ( the real one)
You agreed with another poster that said the act of not reciting the pledge is unchristian, creepy even...
Based on what did you agree with that person?
quote:
Do you sit when, the National Anthem is played? If this is too personal, don't comment. I am just wondering about you, and others who stated your views on the flag? Would you salute the flag, or sit? Only comment if you feel you want to. Blessings
I don't stand, nor do I do I salute the flag...
John
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/27/2008 11:10:08 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3311
Joined: 4/11/2005
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John like I said we have to do what we think is right. I do not want to argue with you, Please understand, I just will submit to you, as far as you thinking you are doing, what is right for you. I will respect that, as I am sure you will respect my way of thinking I as I am doing what is right for me. Christians being hostile to each other on this CE thread is getting old for me. I hope you have a blessed week.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/28/2008 12:36:49 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2956
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
John like I said we have to do what we think is right. I do not want to argue with you, Please understand, I just will submit to you, as far as you thinking you are doing, what is right for you. I will respect that, as I am sure you will respect my way of thinking I as I am doing what is right for me. Christians being hostile to each other on this CE thread is getting old for me. I hope you have a blessed week.
I don't respect the view it's unchristian to not make a pledge to a flag... It's a false charge not supported by Scriptures...
John
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/28/2008 1:49:57 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1756
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
John like I said we have to do what we think is right. I do not want to argue with you, Please understand, I just will submit to you, as far as you thinking you are doing, what is right for you. I will respect that, as I am sure you will respect my way of thinking I as I am doing what is right for me. Christians being hostile to each other on this CE thread is getting old for me. I hope you have a blessed week.
I don't respect the view it's unchristian to not make a pledge to a flag... It's a false charge not supported by Scriptures...
John
Romans 13:1-7
Verse 2 & 7 in particular: 2 "As a consequence, the man who opposes authority rebels against the ordinance of God; those who resist thus shall draw condemnation down upon themselves."
7 "Pay each one his due: taxes to whom taxes are due; toll to whom toll is due; respect and honor to everyone who deserves them."
If the flag is the symbol of our nation and the authority of laws and statutes we are choosing to live under, and we are to give respect and honor to that authority since "all authority that exists is established by God" (Verse 1) are we then disrepecting that authority that God's Word has told us to respect by not saluting or honoring the flag?
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/28/2008 2:27:14 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 616
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
She has the right to sit during the pledge.
She has the right to sit but I don't see any theological reason not to recite it. There is nothing in the pledge that says you are worshipping the state. Allegiance does not equal homage. JW's, I thought, were the only major sect that advocated this.
Allegiance, according to one of th4e on-line dictionaries is: " devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause". In this case the "devotion" is to the flag and the country but I submit that the only allegiance that we, as Christians, should have is to Christ.
For this reason I have not said the pledge for the past 30 years
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/28/2008 2:32:52 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 616
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I Pledge Alligence to the Flag of the (United) States of America, and to the Republic in which (we )stand, (One) nation (under,) God (indivisible), with liberty and justice for all. Now that suggest Unity, not worship, we under God, are like minded. So what is wrong with it? No bowing offering sacrifices to the flag, but a pledge to unity, which without, we will fail. Are we unified under God?
If you are going to quote the pledge shouldn't you at least get it right???
The part in red should read " and to the Republic for which it stands" which gives a totally different meaning to what you claim
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/28/2008 3:04:03 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1756
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
She has the right to sit during the pledge.
She has the right to sit but I don't see any theological reason not to recite it. There is nothing in the pledge that says you are worshipping the state. Allegiance does not equal homage. JW's, I thought, were the only major sect that advocated this.
Allegiance, according to one of th4e on-line dictionaries is: " devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause". In this case the "devotion" is to the flag and the country but I submit that the only allegiance that we, as Christians, should have is to Christ.
For this reason I have not said the pledge for the past 30 years
Devotion according to Webster is defined as: 1, act of devoting; dedication; consecration. 2 piety, godliness. 3 affection, love, zeal
So devotion doesn't have to be religious.
BTW, the word zeal was defined as: fervent ardor; eagerness; enthusiasm; diligence. No religious significance there.
But for whatever reason, it is your right not to say it. I still think there isn't any theological reason for abstaining from saying it.
_____________________________
Three Nails to protect us!
And Justice for all!
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/28/2008 3:23:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2956
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
John like I said we have to do what we think is right. I do not want to argue with you, Please understand, I just will submit to you, as far as you thinking you are doing, what is right for you. I will respect that, as I am sure you will respect my way of thinking I as I am doing what is right for me. Christians being hostile to each other on this CE thread is getting old for me. I hope you have a blessed week.
I don't respect the view it's unchristian to not make a pledge to a flag... It's a false charge not supported by Scriptures...
John
Romans 13:1-7
Verse 2 & 7 in particular: 2 "As a consequence, the man who opposes authority rebels against the ordinance of God; those who resist thus shall draw condemnation down upon themselves."
7 "Pay each one his due: taxes to whom taxes are due; toll to whom toll is due; respect and honor to everyone who deserves them."
If the flag is the symbol of our nation and the authority of laws and statutes we are choosing to live under, and we are to give respect and honor to that authority since "all authority that exists is established by God" (Verse 1) are we then disrepecting that authority that God's Word has told us to respect by not saluting or honoring the flag?
God ordained the civil government, yet that doesn't mean that all the laws of man are lawful when held to the word of God. God's law is supreme over that which He ordained. My only obligation is to obey those laws that are not in conflict with God's law.
The pledge isn't lawful given the term god is not speaking of God as He is described in His word. Given the laws of the land in regards to religion the term god in the pledge is universal and not specific.
As well I will not swear any pledge and or oath to a government that doesn't hold Christ as its King... As you posted, respect and honor to everyone who deserves them.
Given various actions of the authority in question I don't believe it deserves it...
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 4/28/2008 3:30:40 PM >
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RE: Christian Student Suspended for Sitting During Pled... - 4/28/2008 3:28:36 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2956
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
But for whatever reason, it is your right not to say it. I still think there isn't any theological reason for abstaining from saying it.
Given the term god in the pledge isn't the God of the bible I can think of a host of reason not to...
John
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