"Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (Full Version)

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Marcus. -> "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 1:02:31 AM)

By Zachary Gappa
Sunday, April 27, 2008

Many people today are concerned about the "separation of church and state." More often than not, this means keeping religion out of the public sphere. They say the public sphere ought to be "secular," free from talk of religion lest someone be offended. Religious freedom is interpreted as the freedom not to hear another person's religious convictions.

Unfortunately, this freedom of religion is freedom from religion. The Founders specifically guaranteed the free exercise of religion and freedom of speech by demanding that the government not make any laws to limit these freedoms. The first amendment in the bill of rights states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech…." The Founders understood that these freedoms were in danger of being eliminated from the public square.

Sadly, these freedoms of the individual are no longer respected. The ultimate freedom is no longer the freedom to speak or practice one's religion, but the freedom to not be offended by anyone else. It is now seen as rude if one person defends their religious beliefs publicly. Beliefs about morality are no longer welcome in the public sphere. The only place left for religion is within the walls of a person's home or church. This new understanding of religion's place in culture has destroyed the freedom of religion which the Founder's sought to protect. Worse yet, Americans have ceased to understand religion altogether.

Continued



tracydolls -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 1:41:26 AM)

Have you ever seen "Expelled" ?



SonInMe1 -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 3:02:00 AM)

People are too thin skinned.



Veritas -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 8:00:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

Have you ever seen "Expelled" ?

I haven't seen "Expelled". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the movie was about ID, and that ID claims to be science, not religion. If we are to suppose that ID is not religious, what does "Expelled" have to do with discrimination against religion?



Jhud -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 10:40:31 AM)

quote:

I haven't seen "Expelled". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the movie was about ID, and that ID claims to be science, not religion. If we are to suppose that ID is not religious, what does "Expelled" have to do with discrimination against religion?


That is rather the ironic part of it; it's the persecutors who are claiming it's 'religious', and then preceding to discriminate in the name of secularism.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 10:46:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
That is rather the ironic part of it; it's the persecutors who are claiming it's 'religious', and then preceding to discriminate in the name of secularism.

But the "persecutors" didn't bring it up here.
tracydolls did.



Jhud -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 11:13:26 AM)

quote:

But the "persecutors" didn't bring it up here.
tracydolls did.


So?



tracydolls -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 12:11:54 PM)

quote:

haven't seen "Expelled". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the movie was about ID, and that ID claims to be science, not religion. If we are to suppose that ID is not religious, what does "Expelled" have to do with discrimination against religion?


you right you have not seen it then, let me see if I can get link to a clip



earthless -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 12:20:38 PM)

EXPELLED



cow451 -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 12:21:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

People are too thin skinned.

Christians have become chronic whiners and complainers. So I get to use my favorite smiley today: [sm=crystreams.gif]



Veritas -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 1:45:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

I haven't seen "Expelled". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the movie was about ID, and that ID claims to be science, not religion. If we are to suppose that ID is not religious, what does "Expelled" have to do with discrimination against religion?


That is rather the ironic part of it; it's the persecutors who are claiming it's 'religious', and then preceding to discriminate in the name of secularism.

What I find ironic is that ID proponents claim ID is not religious, and then try to claim religious discrimination.



Jhud -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 2:46:49 PM)

quote:

What I find ironic is that ID proponents claim ID is not religious, and then try to claim religious discrimination.


Actually, the 1st amendment right they claim has to do with freedom of expression, not religious observation.



Jhud -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 2:52:22 PM)

quote:

Christians have become chronic whiners and complainers. So I get to use my favorite smiley today:


While I have no desire to be part of a victim group, I have never understood why the slightest remark about a racial group, or sexual orientation, or non-Christian religious group causes incredible consternation amongst those who claim to care about civil liberties, but when it comes to denigrating Christians, even Christians themselves are expected to say nothing. It’s not the denigration that bothers me as much as it is the hypocrisy of those who say we should be silent.



tracydolls -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 4:07:21 PM)

quote:

While I have no desire to be part of a victim group, I have never understood why the slightest remark about a racial group, or sexual orientation, or non-Christian religious group causes incredible consternation amongst those who claim to care about civil liberties, but when it comes to denigrating Christians, even Christians themselves are expected to say nothing. It’s not the denigration that bothers me as much as it is the hypocrisy of those who say we should be silent.



say it again Brother Jhud, I don't think they heard you.



gengwall -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 6:24:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus.

By Zachary Gappa
Sunday, April 27, 2008

Many people today are concerned about the "separation of church and state." More often than not, this means keeping religion out of the public sphere. They say the public sphere ought to be "secular," free from talk of religion lest someone be offended.
Actually, this has not been my experience. I have never been prohibited by the state, or individuals, from the free exercise of my religion in the "public sphere". I know of no one who advocates (successfully) the expulsion of religious discussion between citizens. And so, I know of no one of influence who believes the public square should remain secular. All that they argue is that the state should not promote any religion (or, for that matter, no religion). But that is a far cry from advocating exclusively non-religious public discourse.



lightshineon -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 6:47:40 PM)

Since you claim Christ, does this whinner group include you?
quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

People are too thin skinned.

Christians have become chronic whiners and complainers. So I get to use my favorite smiley today: [sm=crystreams.gif]



Veritas -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 7:58:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

What I find ironic is that ID proponents claim ID is not religious, and then try to claim religious discrimination.


Actually, the 1st amendment right they claim has to do with freedom of expression, not religious observation.

I support their of freeddom of expression. They seem to have no trouble exercising that right.

My question is: What does "Expelled" have to do with discrimination against religion?



Jhud -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 10:47:21 PM)

quote:

My question is: What does "Expelled" have to do with discrimination against religion?


As I have said before, it doesn't matter what the people persecuted claim, it matters what the persecutors claim.

If I don't get hired somewhere because I 'look Jewish', I have been discriminated against even if I am not in fact Jewish.



lightshineon -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 10:53:38 PM)

Well I do not get hired because I am blonde. No really Jack my DD boyfriend looks Jewish, he is not, and people do the same thing.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

My question is: What does "Expelled" have to do with discrimination against religion?


As I have said before, it doesn't matter what the people persecuted claim, it matters what the persecutors claim.

If I don't get hired somewhere because I 'look Jewish', I have been discriminated against even if I am not in fact Jewish.



tracydolls -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/28/2008 11:41:06 PM)

quote:

My question is: What does "Expelled" have to do with discrimination against religion?



Whoa, I must have totally missed something, isnt expelled about scientist getting fired for mentioning that there is God?



Marcus. -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/29/2008 12:37:26 AM)

I haven't seen it yet but I was under the impression that "Expelled" was about the silencing and professional attacks against critics of evolution.



Jhud -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/29/2008 12:40:41 AM)

quote:

I haven't seen it yet but I was under the impression that "Expelled" was about the silencing and professional attacks against critics of evolution.


That's exactly what it is about; and as Tracy noted, that is the equivalent in the mind of an evolutionist to bringing God into the classroom.



Marcus. -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/29/2008 12:49:58 AM)

I studied paleontology in my geology degree program under an avowed atheist. He taught us that the were no transitional fossils and that the physical evidence didn't back up Darwin. I wonder if his peers are after him now? He did teach us how the evidence was changing evolutionary models and even basic geologic assumptions about uniformitarianism (earth changes and evolution both occur slowly over millions and billions of years). Apparently the record does back up catastrophism (changes happen rapidly over shorter periods of time based on the fossil record).



Veritas -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/29/2008 1:00:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

I haven't seen it yet but I was under the impression that "Expelled" was about the silencing and professional attacks against critics of evolution.


That's exactly what it is about; and as Tracy noted, that is the equivalent in the mind of an evolutionist to bringing God into the classroom.

It seems not just in the minds of evolutionists -- Unless Tracy is an evolutionist...

ETA: Equivalent in the minds of the creationists on the Dover School Board too.



Veritas -> RE: "Secular" Discrimination Against Religion (4/29/2008 7:45:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Christians have become chronic whiners and complainers. So I get to use my favorite smiley today:


While I have no desire to be part of a victim group, I have never understood why the slightest remark about a racial group, or sexual orientation, or non-Christian religious group causes incredible consternation amongst those who claim to care about civil liberties, but when it comes to denigrating Christians, even Christians themselves are expected to say nothing. It’s not the denigration that bothers me as much as it is the hypocrisy of those who say we should be silent.

Christians are the ones in power. When those in powere complain about discrimination, whether they be Christians, males, whites, heterosexuals, it is hard to feel much sympathy. I realize it is possible to discriminate against Christians, and I'm sure discrimination agains Christians happens upon occasion, but when the privilidged complain, it comes across as whining.



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