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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/10/2008 9:20:52 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
"For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 31 "They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.
clearly God says that these actions did not originate with Him. since He did not command it, that would eliminate it being part of His revealed will. but the thought never came into His mind, which would eliminate His secert will.
Hey Mark,I don't mean to be rude and cut into a two-way conversation.I wanted to know if you guys are debating or questioning Gods permissive will,or revealed will here.I know you mentioned secret will,but what about his permissive will?
Didn't God permit Satan to test Job?Even in the scripture you reference in Jeremiah here what exactly is in question here? Is it that God does not control our every move,because this verse proves that men can do something that God did not will?
Does this verse take away from Gods permissive will?
See commentary on this verse and see if this makes a difference in your stance on Gods will:
God says of this that it was what he commanded them not, neither cam it into his heart, which is not meant of his not commanding them thus to worship Moloch (this he had expressly forbidden them), but he had never commanded that his worshippers should be at such an expense, nor put such a force upon their natural affection, in honouring him; it never came into his heart to have children offered to him, yet they had forsaken his service for the service of such gods as, by commanding this, showed themselves to be indeed enemies to mankind.
I don't know as I am interrupting an ongoing conversation between the two of you what is at issue here.
this evil doesnt seem to originate from God in any way. do you see it in a different way
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/11/2008 1:23:32 AM
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justasheep
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quote:
clearly God says that these actions did not originate with Him. since He did not command it, that would eliminate it being part of His revealed will. but the thought never came into His mind, which would eliminate His secert will.
I wouldn't ever say that sin originates from God. God cannot sin in any way, he is perfectly and splendidly HOLY. I'm saying all sin, because God is sovereign must in some sence be permitted by him or it would not occur. God is never caught off guard by our evil hearts. "Never came into His mind" while I agree we should first shoot for the most plain reading of the text, His omniscience must surely preclude your interpretation, God knew full well that this would occur.
As sonofone has commented that His permissive will allows for such. BTW theologians usually link permissive and secret will together. Maybe permissive is more easily understood by its title. I do appreciate your diligence here and all of the scripture references, this discussion can make one's head spin 
No, I do not think God used Satan to tempt Job precisely because of the passage that you quoted. You are jumping to that conclusion, Satan is not a puppet, he is doing that which he has done from the beginning. But God still reigns and knows all things and can do all things. So my question to you, why does God allow so much evil to continue? Why not wrap things up and call us home?
_____________________________
Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/11/2008 1:34:48 AM
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Conquered
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quote:
the passage in job seems to indicate that God reacted to satan.
How can God be reacting to Satan when God was the one who started the conversation? If anything God laid an irresistible trap for Satan to carry out his will.
Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? -Job 1:8-10
Do you really think God was surprised by Satan's answer?
quote:
i am sure we both agree that satan tempted job. the question is did God use satan to tempt Job. if i understand your discussion about God's secret will it would seem your answer would be yes. but i dont know that for certain and am not trying to answer for you.
Who does the Scriptures say sent Saul a distressing spirit? Yes, God uses and harnesses Satan for his purpose and plan. Don't you think he did so leading up to the death of Jesus when we read that it was Satan himself who entered Judas?
Do you really think that God 'got lucky' on that one?
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/11/2008 8:23:01 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justasheep
So my question to you, why does God allow so much evil to continue? Why not wrap things up and call us home?
i think the answer to this is in the end unknowable to us. perhaps you have a passage in mind that comes to mind, the one that comes to me is found in revelation.
6:10
and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also
God has a plan and a purpose, and the evil and the goodness will continue until His plan is accomplished. why the evil actually happens though i dont think we can say. why a particular christian is martyred i dont think we say other than it fits God's purpose.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/11/2008 8:35:32 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
quote:
"For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 31 "They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.
clearly God says that these actions did not originate with Him. since He did not command it, that would eliminate it being part of His revealed will. but the thought never came into His mind, which would eliminate His secert will.
Hey Mark,I don't mean to be rude and cut into a two-way conversation.I wanted to know if you guys are debating or questioning Gods permissive will,or revealed will here.I know you mentioned secret will,but what about his permissive will?
Didn't God permit Satan to test Job?Even in the scripture you reference in Jeremiah here what exactly is in question here? Is it that God does not control our every move,because this verse proves that men can do something that God did not will?
Does this verse take away from Gods permissive will?
See commentary on this verse and see if this makes a difference in your stance on Gods will:
God says of this that it was what he commanded them not, neither cam it into his heart, which is not meant of his not commanding them thus to worship Moloch (this he had expressly forbidden them), but he had never commanded that his worshippers should be at such an expense, nor put such a force upon their natural affection, in honouring him; it never came into his heart to have children offered to him, yet they had forsaken his service for the service of such gods as, by commanding this, showed themselves to be indeed enemies to mankind.
I don't know as I am interrupting an ongoing conversation between the two of you what is at issue here.
this evil doesnt seem to originate from God in any way. do you see it in a different way
i agree that God has a permissive will. When we say that God has a permissive will, who is God giving permission to? in the case of job, or those who offered their children in the fire, God wasnt giving permission to Himself to allow these acts was He?
i would understand He was giving permission to others to perform evil. if that is true then God is reacting to an act/thought that originated outside of Himself even though He foreknew the event.
what started this discussion is whether or not God's foreknowldge of an event removes the frewill of those who participate in the event. justasheep said yes, i said no.
my contention is if God's foreknowledge removed the freewill of the participants then they were under complusion to act as they did. so God would be the source of their complusion.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/11/2008 9:04:33 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
uote:
ORIGINAL: justasheep
So my question to you, why does God allow so much evil to continue? Why not wrap things up and call us home?
i think the answer to this is in the end unknowable to us. perhaps you have a passage in mind that comes to mind, the one that comes to me is found in revelation.
2nd Peter 3 vs8-9 But do not forget this one thing,dear friends:With the Lord a day is like a thousand years,a thousand years are like a day.The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise,as some understand slowness.He is patient with you,not wanting anyone to perish,but everyone to come to repentance.
Good men are apt to think God stays beyond the appointed time, that is, the time which they have set for their own and the church’s deliverance; but they set one time and God sets another, and he will not fail to keep the day which he has appointed. Ungodly men dare charge a culpable slackness upon God, as if he had slipped the time, and laid aside the thoughts of coming. But the apostle assures us, I. That what men count slackness is truly long-suffering, and that to us-ward; it is giving more time to his own people, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world, many of whom are not as yet converted; and those who are in a state of grace and favour with God are to advance in knowledge and holiness, and in the exercise of faith and patience, to abound in good works, doing and suffering what they are called to, that they may bring glory to God, and improve in a meetness for heaven; for God is not willing that any of these should perish, but that all of them should come to repentance.
Commentary provided by Matthews Commentary.
It is for our sake and the sake of the other elect that God continues to give grace.
< Message edited by sunofone -- 6/11/2008 9:18:38 PM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/11/2008 9:11:47 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
i agree that God has a permissive will. When we say that God has a permissive will, who is God giving permission to? in the case of job, or those who offered their children in the fire, God wasnt giving permission to Himself to allow these acts was He?
i would understand He was giving permission to others to perform evil. if that is true then God is reacting to an act/thought that originated outside of Himself even though He foreknew the event.
what started this discussion is whether or not God's foreknowldge of an event removes the frewill of those who participate in the event. justasheep said yes, i said no.
my contention is if God's foreknowledge removed the freewill of the participants then they were under complusion to act as they did. so God would be the source of their complusion. You might say that God was giving permission to himself and to those who operate outside of his will even now to this day.
2nd Peter 3 vs 9 The sovereign will of God is certain of complete fulfillment,but the moral law is disobeyed by men,and the desires of God are fulfilled only to the extent they are included in his sovereign will.God does not desire that any should perish,but it is clear that many will not be saved(reve.21:8) Commentary by C.I. Scofield,D.D.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/11/2008 9:53:40 PM
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Walker311
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I have always seen free will as a great gift from God. Within my human ability, I can do whatever I please whether it be good or bad. I believe that willingly choosing to believe in Christ and accept Him after God has drawn us, binds our relationship to Him. It is an unforced loving relationship.
It is closed-minded to believe that there is no such thing as free will and a waste of time to try to convince a determinist otherwise.
God has predestined many things and one of the most important is where we will spend eternity. I believe it better to concentrate on what we can change within ourselves rather than spending a great deal of time pondering whether it was predestined that JoeBob was never going to get saved anyway.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/11/2008 10:35:03 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
It is closed-minded to believe that there is no such thing as free will and a waste of time to try to convince a determinist otherwise. I agree with this.A closed fist is not able to receive,and a only a fool would try to defy this.
I further believe that meat is for the mature,and milk is for the immature.So it's not right to force feed someone who is not ready to receive it.I think you raised some excellent points here.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/11/2008 10:55:50 PM
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justasheep
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quote:
God has a plan and a purpose, and the evil and the goodness will continue until His plan is accomplished. why the evil actually happens though i dont think we can say. why a particular christian is martyred i dont think we say other than it fits God's purpose.
I totally agree with you here and appreciate the passage that you bring up. That is what I was thinking of. One thing I would add is that I believe God's plan and purposes would necessarily be for His glory. Maybe, especially so in the case of a martyr. Remember the chuch has always flourished during times of persecution. Thanks for this reminder.
I also agree that we cannot know why in particular an evil may occur, but we must trust in His providence. Romans 8:28 refers to all things working together for good for those who love Him and are called according to his purpose. This promise is one that is so very precious.
_____________________________
Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/12/2008 2:37:30 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
How can God be reacting to Satan when God was the one who started the conversation? If anything God laid an irresistible trap for Satan to carry out his will.
Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? -Job 1:8-10
Do you really think God was surprised by Satan's answer?
no God was not surprised, but as i said earleir job 1 has to be read in light of job 2. as you know in the hebrew the second telling of an event often adds things not found in the first
job 2
3 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
may i ask who the LORD says incited His action against job?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/12/2008 5:31:07 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
You might say that God was giving permission to himself and to those who operate outside of his will even now to this day.
if God gives Himself permission does that mean that God is somehow divided against Himself? i hope my question makes sense, it almost seems as this idea would make God into a split personality.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/12/2008 6:24:33 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
You might say that God was giving permission to himself and to those who operate outside of his will even now to this day.
if God gives Himself permission does that mean that God is somehow divided against Himself? i hope my question makes sense, it almost seems as this idea would make God into a split personality.
You are so funny Mark  Permission is just another word for allows.If we can agree that God can desire one thing but allow his desire to be delayed or denied,insofar as it does not disrupt his sovereign will.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/12/2008 7:25:14 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
You are so funny Mark Permission is just another word for allows.If we can agree that God can desire one thing but allow his desire to be delayed or denied,insofar as it does not disrupt his sovereign will.
you have dicscussed God's desire, the fact that God can desire something and deny Himself, so you find in God an unfullfiled desire. i know the passage, God desires all men to be saved.
you have stated that the unfulfilled desire cannot disrupt His sovereign will. we still have the problem of God's desires being limited by His will. this places God's sovereign will as superior over His other attributes, His desires, and what He allows or His permissive will.
i would imagine that it would have to be placed over His love, mercy and justice. the more we limit God and section Him up, the more we make Him fit the limits of human understanding. for example, i have to cut the grass this saturday, it's not what i desire to be doing, it's not what i love doing, but it is the plan for saturday so everything else is in subjection to that plan.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/12/2008 9:30:10 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
You are so funny Mark Permission is just another word for allows.If we can agree that God can desire one thing but allow his desire to be delayed or denied,insofar as it does not disrupt his sovereign will.
you have dicscussed God's desire, the fact that God can desire something and deny Himself, so you find in God an unfullfiled desire. i know the passage, God desires all men to be saved.
you have stated that the unfulfilled desire cannot disrupt His sovereign will. we still have the problem of God's desires being limited by His will. this places God's sovereign will as superior over His other attributes, His desires, and what He allows or His permissive will.
i would imagine that it would have to be placed over His love, mercy and justice. the more we limit God and section Him up, the more we make Him fit the limits of human understanding. for example, i have to cut the grass this saturday, it's not what i desire to be doing, it's not what i love doing, but it is the plan for saturday so everything else is in subjection to that plan.
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying,so I'll try to do a better job of explaining what I'm saying.Either God gets what he wants,or he doesn't.Either he is in control of his creation or he isn't.
I think it's clear that he both gets what he wants,and he is in control.So if he wants everyone to be perfect and always do what is right,and no one to perish,what's stopping him from getting this?
This is where I make room for his permissive will,what he allows to happen even when it is not his desire.Otherwise I feel I'm left with two other alternatives,one is he's not in control because his hands are tied by our freewill,or in the end everyone gets in heaven like the UR say because he gets what he wants,that is that none perish and all come to repentance.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/14/2008 3:55:07 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying,so I'll try to do a better job of explaining what I'm saying.Either God gets what he wants,or he doesn't.Either he is in control of his creation or he isn't.
I think it's clear that he both gets what he wants,and he is in control.So if he wants everyone to be perfect and always do what is right,and no one to perish,what's stopping him from getting this?
This is where I make room for his permissive will,what he allows to happen even when it is not his desire.Otherwise I feel I'm left with two other alternatives,one is he's not in control because his hands are tied by our freewill,or in the end everyone gets in heaven like the UR say because he gets what he wants,that is that none perish and all come to repentance.
here is what i am getting at. you said "Either God gets what he wants,or he doesn't". in scripture we read
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
we both agree that all people do not get saved even though that is God's desire. is God's desire different than His wants?
if God does not get what He desires, than His disires are subject to His sovergein will. so God is divided against Himself, He disires something that He cannot have.
this is where i think we as humans are limited in this whole discussion of God's will by our finite knowledge
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/14/2008 6:29:01 PM
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_CANCELLED_
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Just the fact that you're offered the option to 'choose God's Will' is free-will.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/14/2008 8:23:45 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
this is where i think we as humans are limited in this whole discussion of God's will by our finite knowledge On this point I think in this respect I agree.It is Gods pleasure to reveal to us what he wants.In fact as I can tell this particular issue is relevant only to the extent that it affects our attitude towards our responsibility in serving him.
That is how what we walk away believing affects how we respond to him,and how this affects our service toward him.For instance the Apostles were told to propagate the gospel to the world.
They were told to inform the greater world,I.E, the Jew and Gentile alike the good news.Imagine if they knew that God would save all whether they preached the gospel or not.Would they have lived the way they lived,would they have died the way they died.Would they have served the way they served.
When God gave Moses the law,Moses and those to whom the law was given had every expectation that to do the law was the way to please God.There acceptance was based in their response to the law.
Imagine how they would have responded to the law if God told them up front that the law was preparatory,a school master to usher in Jesus.
Now we have in our hands a bible that according John is not to be added to or taken away.The final revelation of Gods will,if you will.I believe that God will give us to know,what he wants and needs us to know.
So that we will do what he desires us to do.From my current vantage point I see that God chooses.It's that simple.He chooses those that are his.In the end I can be wrong,truth be told,nothing would make me any happier than to find that I am wrong and the UR are right.
Having said that I can not in good conscience preach that gospel,or stand by that gospel,as God has not confirmed to me by his revealed word that this is true.
He has confirmed to me that he chooses,but that we don't know who is chosen.So I am compelled to tell all,just as the Apostles about the good news.
It is his good pleasure as to who will be saved,not mine.Perhaps he will in the end save all.maybe he won't.It's to big for me to know,and it's only important that I know in so far as it affects my service to him.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/14/2008 9:35:00 PM
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Saved_2_Serve
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quote:
Just the fact that you're offered the option to 'choose God's Will' is free-will.
Wow! Now there is the PLAIN and SIMPLE TRUTH!
< Message edited by Saved_2_Serve -- 6/14/2008 9:41:24 PM >
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/14/2008 11:50:29 PM
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sunofone
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Is there any difference or significance in lost vs alienated?Not trying to start a new topic,I'm just wondering if I see something that helps us to see more clearly concerning Gods will.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/14/2008 11:58:35 PM
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Walker311
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Is there any difference or significance in lost vs alienated?Not trying to start a new topic,I'm just wondering if I see something that helps us to see more clearly concerning Gods will.
Yes! The difference being... lost is in the eternal plain as in where the soul will reside and it is our choice where that will be. Alienation exists only in the human reality.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/15/2008 4:02:16 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Is there any difference or significance in lost vs alienated?Not trying to start a new topic,I'm just wondering if I see something that helps us to see more clearly concerning Gods will.
can you elaborate a little with what your thinking here?
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/15/2008 6:50:04 PM
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sunofone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
Is there any difference or significance in lost vs alienated?Not trying to start a new topic,I'm just wondering if I see something that helps us to see more clearly concerning Gods will.
can you elaborate a little with what your thinking here?
John it's a very elaborate thought although very simple in concept.If I oversimplify it,I will probably have a lot of gaps in qualifying the thought.
Definition of lost: having gone astray or missed the way; bewildered as to place, direction, etc.: lost children.
Alienated:# To cause to be transferred; turn away: "He succeeded . . . in alienating the affections of my only ward" (Oscar Wilde).
Estranged: to turn away in feeling or affection; make unfriendly or hostile; alienate the affections of: Their quarrel estranged the two friends.
2. to remove to or keep at a distance: The necessity for traveling on business has estranged him from his family.
3. to divert from the original use or possessor.
Jesus came to save those who were lost.Lost is tied to already belonging.Alienated,is tied to alien,which is:a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization (distinguished from citizen).
2. a foreigner.
3. a person who has been estranged or excluded.
If you follow the lineage of Adam through Abraham,you will find aliens,and the righteous seed.
I'll qualify this later if you need me to.Jesus in John 10 talks about the thief and robber and the hireling that caused the sheep to be scattered,and attacked.
He talks about himself as the good shepherd that knows his sheep,and who know him.
Jesus came to save seek those who were lost.I believe lost refers to the righteous seed,who up until he arrived were scattered,or not gathered together.
It's a pretty detailed thought to have to type out.So I'm missing a lot of detail here.Suffice it to say that I'm seeing a righteous line of people that God is gathering,some might call it the elect.
These are the ones who will be saved,while the remainder continue to be alienated.
I know this sounds harsh,and unfair but I see it in the genealogy as well as the blessings and curses passed on to lines of people and their descendants.
Jesus when he spoke to the Pharisees challenged their right to claim they were Abraham's children,and children of God.He said they belonged to their Father the devil.He said the reason they did not hear him,referring to the sheep that hear his voice is because they did not belong to God.
They were not lost,they were aliens,in fact he called them slaves,who had no permanent place in the family.
I believe it all goes hand in hand John.I know there are some gaps here,let me know what needs clearing up and I'll try to fill in the gaps,but I really think I see something here.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 6/16/2008 6:46:23 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 487
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
If you follow the lineage of Adam through Abraham,you will find aliens,and the righteous seed.
I'll qualify this later if you need me to.Jesus in John 10 talks about the thief and robber and the hireling that caused the sheep to be scattered,and attacked.
He talks about himself as the good shepherd that knows his sheep,and who know him.
Jesus came to save seek those who were lost.I believe lost refers to the righteous seed,who up until he arrived were scattered,or not gathered together.
It's a pretty detailed thought to have to type out.So I'm missing a lot of detail here.Suffice it to say that I'm seeing a righteous line of people that God is gathering,some might call it the elect.
These are the ones who will be saved,while the remainder continue to be alienated.
I know this sounds harsh,and unfair but I see it in the genealogy as well as the blessings and curses passed on to lines of people and their descendants.
perhaps we are moving away from the op but maybe not, there is some relationship between election and freewill. so you understand election to be individual and not corprate. iow as you look at the passages that speak to this group and see it as calling out individuals and not nations. can you give me some specific passages so we have something to look at?
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... However: 