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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/17/2008 8:31:25 PM
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Prairiehiker
Posts: 980
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quote:
So, who ever comes to Jesus will recieve eternal life, and He will not lose one who have been given or come to Him, and He will draw all men to himself, and obviously not lose one of those either... So no more Hell. Not a single human will go to hell.
Is that what you are saying?
For the last time, hell is for people whom God draws to Himself, but for whatever reason, refuse to come to God. And no, an all powerful God cannot do everything. There are things impossible for Him to do....like send people that have followed him to hell, or send them to heaven when they refuse to come to him. Our God is not a God guided by whim.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/17/2008 9:51:05 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
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quote:
So given this encapsulation of your view, how then do you reconcile it against the dozens of verses in Scripture that do say that God chooses, such as….
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. – 1 Corinthians 1:27-29
What exactly does this have to do with God choosing ahead of time who He will save and whom He won't save?
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Nope yet again, that is not what I said, that is what you distorted what I said into. God wants us to overcome our own unbelief.
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But he can’t “overcome our own unbelief” unless we exercise the power of our own wills right? You see SbG, I’m just leading your words down the logical path that you’ve laid out, and it’s clearly a salvation by works.
No, again you continually miss the point. Salvation is not through our works, but His work. Salvation is of His grace, and our faith. Thats it, no works, just faith. He did the work on the cross, but we don't receive salvation until we believe in that work.
Let me ask you this. What logic is their in God making up our minds for us. Why would He bother sending Jesus to die, if He could just make up our minds for us, and be happy with that. He wants us to come willingly to Him, and to His Son. He wants us to willingly love Him. Why is this so hard for you to understand.
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He chooses to let us do that for ourself.
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So then we conclude that salvation is of ourselves first, then God. We as you say “do that for ourselves” first when we choose, then he can do his work. Again, this is where you lead us.
And again, salvation is entirely of the Lord, because it is His alone to offer to us, but to receive it we must believe. If we don't believe, we don't receive it.
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Jesus death was a complete and glorious success. If He wanted robots He would have created robots. But He didn't, He lets us choose if we will believe and receive His gift of salvation.
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Slaves is probably a better description than robots, though given the negative connotation of the word, it would probably best be described as a slave under his love, captivated by his love and gloriously free from sin and the devil’s reign. Anyway, do you think you’ll have the power to sin in heaven?
No, and this is actually a foolish question. I won't even answer it any further.
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In John 15:16 Is Jesus not talking to the disciples, the 12 apostles who yes were chosen by Him?
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In Matthew 28, the first hearers of the Great Commission were the disciples. Do you think he was giving that command only to them then?
Great way to skate on answering an honest question.
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An unbelievers sins are not forgiven until he accepts the atonement offered by Jesus' death for them.
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So all my sins can be paid for by Jesus on the cross but not forgiven? If I am a million dollars in debt and someone kindly comes and pays it all, the debt is not forgiven?
If all my sins are already paid, how then does Jesus ask for a refund should I reject him?
God does not recognize the transaction of penalty for sin, death, paid for by Jesus, until we accept Him, and believe in Him. Once we believe in Him, and confess our sins, God accepts the death of Jesus as payment for those sins, if we don't believe, and don't confess, we must still pay the price for our own sins. Is this hard to understand for you.
I notice how you didn't actually answer any of the questions regarding your own beliefs that I posed to you, but instead tried your best to attack what I said.
So again, you are saying that basically Gods love runs out. That He doesn't actually love everyone, because He only picks a few people in advance, who have no choice in the matter, to be saved by the death of Jesus, anyone else and everyone else is out of luck. This is the gist of what I take out of all the posts I have read.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/17/2008 11:54:07 PM
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justasheep
Posts: 37
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quote:
For the last time, hell is for people whom God draws to Himself, but for whatever reason, refuse to come to God. And no, an all powerful God cannot do everything. There are things impossible for Him to do....like send people that have followed him to hell, or send them to heaven when they refuse to come to him. Our God is not a God guided by whim.
Prairehiker,
So where in scripture does it say that God draws all men without exception to himself. What sort of drawing are you referring to, some sort of general call? What about those past and present who have never heard the gospel. Speaking of a God guided by whim, my understanding is that God had a plan that included the the slain lamb before the foundation of the world. Is was not plan B which would be much more akin to your whim then God's ultimate plan as described in the scriptures. Have you considered Eph. 1: 4-11
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [1] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [2] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, have been predestined according to his purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
This marvelous passage brings into focus the mystery of his will that was previously unknown by both Jew and Gentile. Predestination is not something that Calvin made up or tacked on, it is the plain teaching of scripture. It seems as if salvation is about His will and not ours, His glory and none of ours. Have you considered that Jesus' death on the Cross was for the praise of His glory. Could it be that the cross secured His bride, that they would spend an eternity praising His name for such a sacrifice. I don't believe there will ever be a day in eternity that we won't remember the lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world. The cross is not just the only remedy for sinners it is for the praise of His glory as this passage so clearly says.
I have one more question if I may. Does the cross tell us more about how much we are loved and esteemed by God or does it tell us about our horrible condition and perfectly display precisely where God's justice and His mercy collide? The answer to this question will radically effect your life.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/18/2008 2:20:53 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1921
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quote:
Predestination is not something that Calvin made up or tacked on, it is the plain teaching of scripture. It seems as if salvation is about His will and not ours, His glory and none of ours. Have you considered that Jesus' death on the Cross was for the praise of His glory.
Predestination is indeed the plain teaching of Scripture, but not the interpretation given to it by Calvin and others of similar persuasion. Let's look at this passage (Eph. 1:4-14) and keep it in the context of all Gospel truth. It is a great shame that this glorious Gospel truth has been twisted to mean that God elects some to Heaven and others to Hell.
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
This verse teaches us that the saints were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world for a very definite purpose -- that we should be holy and blameless and filled with His love. This does not say that some were chosen for Heaven and others for Hell, but that those who are in Christ were chosen for a higher purpose.
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Since the saints are children of God through the New Birth, the adoption of children speaks of the rights and privileges of legitimate children to their inheritances. God's children are predestined to become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ for all eternity. Once again, this is not a verse to teach that some are predestined for Heaven and others for Hell. It is simply to teach that those who are children of God by faith will also truly become heirs of God by His grace.
[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Predestination is to the praise of the glory of His grace, and this would not be true if some were predestined to Hell in spite of God's grace.
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Redemption through Christ's blood and the forgiveness of sins is accordinging to the riches of God's grace. Therefore these blessings are not limited to a few, but accessible to the entire human race. Why? Because Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world. The Ephesians are reminded that their salvation is purely and entirely based upon God's grace. They are not told that God's grace is limited in any way.
[8] Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
God, in His infinite wisdom and prudence, has brought salvation to all men through the blood of Christ. There are no limits to His grace.
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
The mystery of His will was hidden from the OT prophets, but revealed to Paul through Divine revelation. And this mystery includes the fact of Jew and Gentile in one Body, as children or God, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ. See Romans 8 for the complete picture as pertains to the saints. But that is not all. The whole universe will experience redemption, as we see in the next verse.
[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Paul states in 1 Cor. 15:28, that not only will all things be subdued unto Christ, but they will also be gathered together under Him so that "God may be all in all". This is a stupendous prophecy concerning the ultimate character of the universe. The "Dispensation of the Fulness of Times" is the ultimate and eternal dispensation of God, when time shall be no more, and God shall indeed be all in all.
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Notice the connection between the eternal inheritance of the saints and their predestination. Predestination was never meant to exclude some sinners but to guarantee to those who believe that they will (1) be conformed to the image and likeness of Christ and (2) they will receive an eternal inheritance with all the saints.
[12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
The whole of God's plan of redemption was for one purpose alone -- that God may be praised and glorified eternally by all saints and angels for His marvellous grace and His infinite mercy. That is truly the glory of God.
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
This verse effectively dispels the notion that some are elected to Heaven and others to Hell. Rather, all sinners must (1) hear the Gospel, (2) believe the Gospel and (3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit as a "seal" of God's promises, before they can claim the promises of being perfected and receiving an inhertiance.
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe and repent, and He is given as an "earnest" or "downpayment". The indwelling Holy Spirit is our guarantee that we shall be perfected and we shall become heirs of God.
God's perfect will is that all human beings enter into His Kingdom and become His heirs. God's permissive will allows many to stay outside His Kingdom because of their own unbelief. The Jewish religious leaders of the time of Jesus of Nazareth chose to reject Him and thus shut themselves out of the Kingdom.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/18/2008 7:57:40 PM
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Prairiehiker
Posts: 980
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: online
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Thanks for clarifying the passage, Ezra. I just read that a few weeks ago, and I didn't get anywhere close to the interpretation of Justasheep. I guess you really have to be indoctrinated in Calvinism to see those interpretation in those passages.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 1:31:01 AM
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justasheep
Posts: 37
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Ezra,
I remember someone interpreting Romans 9 in a similar fassion. I guess we see what we want to see, as I'm quite sure you would agree. I'm also sure that this debate will never be settled this side of eternity. The interesting thing is that I can see why you might interpret passages as such and yet If I understand your previous posts correctly, you see my interpretation as being straight from the devil. But, my friend history is on my side not to mention the plain interpretation of scripture. You can dismiss them all - Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Owen, Bunyun, Edwards, Brainerd, Whitfield, and Spurgeon to mention a few. These men lived extraordinary lives, led by the spirit of God and their love for the savior. They also preached about this term you have dismissed called predestination. You have removed any meaning from this word, to fit your theological preference. Have you ever considered that the mass acceptance of arminian theology is a relatively new thing, a whole lot of saints were mistaken and preaching this heresy that you so easily pronounce. But I do appreciate your passion for the word and your apparent love for Jesus. So we can agree to disagree at this point.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 4:33:01 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1921
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quote:
They also preached about this term you have dismissed called predestination. You have removed any meaning from this word, to fit your theological preference.
Justasheep:
I have neither dismissed predestination nor removed the meaning of the word.
Predestination (Gk. proorizo) means to determine beforehand, and
Scripture says that (1) we are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29), (2) we are predestinated to be holy, blameless, and filled with His love (Eph. 1:4), and (3) we are predestinated unto "the adoption of children" (Eph. 1:5) or the placing as adult children in God's family (which pertains to our inheritance).
Predestination and election pertain to the perfection of the saints and their enjoyment of their eternal inheritance with Christ. Election is according to God's foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2) and so is predestination. God has known from the foundation of the world the ones who will be perfected in Christ. Therefore the progression is (Rom. 8:29,30):
1. Foreknowledge
2. Predestination
3. Calling
4. Justification
5. Glorification
Nowhere does the Bible teach than any man is predestined for Heaven or for Hell. If it were true, there would be no need for the Gospel or for evangelism.
However, since the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, all sinners may be saved if all will believe and repent. That is why the preaching of the Gospel is critical.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/19/2008 4:41:54 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 3:09:44 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
This verse teaches us that the saints were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world for a very definite purpose -- that we should be holy and blameless and filled with His love. This does not say that some were chosen for Heaven and others for Hell, but that those who are in Christ were chosen for a higher purpose.
Ezra, you are defeated by your own exegesis. This first contradiction sets up the error in the rest of your post. If one is chosen to be "holy and blameless and filled with his love" from eternity past, then one is indeed chosen of God and therefore saved. If one is not these things then one is not saved. There are not two salvations or levels of salvation.
You can't argue this Scripture away just to force-fit your view.
Yes, those who are in Christ are chosen for a higher purpose: It's simply called salvation, which includes serving the Lord here on earth to then serve him for eternity.
You can't simply divorce the benefits of salvation from salvation itself because it is simply not in the text for you to do so.
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 3:20:51 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
If we agree that Christ's one great sacrifice for sin is sufficient for all, then you must forthwith abandon your theory of "limited atonement". Have you done that?
Not at all. If I would earn seven billions dollars and therefore had the means to give everyone on the planet a dollar, that doesn't therefore mean I necessary WILL choose to give everyone a dollar.
This is the whole point: God chooses who will be saved, not you, not I. He earned the right to save anyone and anyone he chooses will therefore be saved. This is why Paul says in Romans 9 that salvation does not depend on man's will but on God who gives mercy.
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God saves only those who believe Him, believe the Gospel, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. While God has made full provision through the Gospel and by the power of the Holy Spirit that all may believe, He will compel none to believe in spite of their resisting the Holy Spirit. That is clear from Scripture.
Yes, only those who believe are saved, and thankfully, God is the author of that belief. It is clear from Scripture that God, in his mercy and grace, does compel some to be saved.
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I do not "slyly" deny anything. Your theory (or theology) here is utterly false because you do not understand (1) the power of the Gospel and (2) the power of the Holy Spirit who accompanies the Gospel. Though sinners are in captivity to sin, the Gospel is a "jackhammer" to blast that captivity, and the Holy Spirit brings all of God's power to bear upon the truth of the Gospel so that blindness is removed and deafness is cured. Study Acts chapter 2 to grasp this fundamental truth.
Who wrote the Gospel? God, you say? Then he is therefore the author of your belief. If you heard, it was the Holy Spirit who opened your ears and eyes to see. It wasn't you, Ezra, if the Spirit indeed lives in you that is, it was God who pierced your heart.
I believe what you do, Ezra, only that I actually believe it more than you. Again, you deny the weight of your own words and the weight of the Gospel to overpower man's inability to see a Risen Christ.
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 4:13:31 PM
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URForgiven
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If God has placed an arbitrary limitation on the efficacy of Christ's Shed Blood on the cross by deliberately placing some outside of Christ's redemptive purpose, would that not make God morally responsible for the unbelief of the unbeliever and also saddle God Himself with the guilt of the guilty...and an aider and abettor of their sin?
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 5/19/2008 4:20:35 PM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 4:56:01 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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Conquered,
I have come to a realization, that maybe I was wrong in my terminology. Maybe I was wrong about something. Maybe you were right questioning when I said it was Gods will that all men be saved. Maybe you were right when you questioned that and said that if it was Gods will, then our own will would be stronger than His, because all of us will not be saved. If it were Gods will that all men be saved, we would be, right?
My point, maybe I used the wrong word. Maybe it is not Gods will, but Gods desire that all men be saved.
In 1 Timothy 2, it tells us this
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
You see, I believe that He wants all men to believe, but He will not make us. So maybe it was wrong to use that it is His will that all be saved, but I would say that He wants us, desires that all men be saved, that all men believe. I believe this means that we have an option. We have a choice. We have the ability to decide for ourselves if we will believe, or not. Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all men, but all men will not recognize that. All men will not come into belief of what He did for us. Why is that? Is it because they choose not to believe, which would indicate an exercise of will, or because God doesn't want them to? The sacrifice of Jesus was enough to satisfy the penalty for all mens sins. So why then will some not go to heaven, why will some go to hell? Because they choose not to believe.
Why would a God that wants, desires for all men to be saved, not then give all men the desire to come unto Him. As you have said, He gives us that desire. So why not give it to all men?
The answer I think is a simple one. Because He wants us to come willingly. He wants us to love Him, not by His choice, but by our own choice.
Whether or not the initial desire to come to the Lord is His or ours is not of question here. What we do with that initial desire, that initial stirring in our souls to know why, how, and who created all that we see. Some will rationalize that stirring into something other than faith in the Lord. Does that mean that they didn't receive it? No, it just means they chose not to follow that stirring into faith. So whether or not that initial desire is His or ours, we, we still have to act on it. We still have to exercise our own will, and turn that simple desire into a faith in God almighty, and a relationship with our Lord and Savior.
So you see, somewhere along the line, we have to respond to all that we know. Whether it be a desire planted by God Himself in our hearts, or if we just look around in complete awe of His creation and want to know more of Him. We have to choose.
I hope this could clear up some of what I have been trying to say. I know that I may have blurted out some things that were not thought through.
You were also correct in questioning my understanding of what Calvinists believe. To be honest, just until recently I had never heard of a Calvinist, or an Armenian or most of the other groups or denominations. I only know of, and only care to know of my Lord, my Savior, My God. But I should know where everybody stands, and the ideas, and beliefs of their faith before I accuse somebody of anything. So my apologies if I came of as offensive.
May God bless you, and take care.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 7:37:57 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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To every1,
I have had to do a lot of thinking, as I have read some pretty good arguments on this topic. At first I was questioning my own beliefs, due to what I have read on the whole predestined topic. When that came up, I really questioned where my faith was at. Then Ezra said something
Predestination and election pertain to the perfection of the saints and their enjoyment of their eternal inheritance with Christ. Election is according to God's foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2) and so is predestination. God has known from the foundation of the world the ones who will be perfected in Christ. Therefore the progression is (Rom. 8:29,30):
this after all Ezra had said perplexed me. I didn't understand at first what was meant by this. It sounded as if this agreed with what the calvinists were saying.
Then it hit me, maybe, just maybe, I don't know, that the ones who were predestined are the believers. Right. But it doesn't say who is predestined to become a believer, or how many(it later on is said that it will wind up only being a few), or that some are predestined to become believers, just that the believer is predestined to share in the inheritance of Christ and conform to His image. It doesn't say that the predestined were chosen to believe beforehand and receive His grace, but that the predestined are the ones who have come into belief, and were predestined to share in His inheritance.
Simply put, It is predestined for the believer to receive Gods grace, not predestined who will become believers. Was this clear, I don't know. I almost confused myself with this one.
So Calvinists, or whoever argues on the other side,
Is it possible that what I have tried to say here is true.
That it was not predestined who will become believers, but that the believer was predestined to share in the inheritance in Christ, and gain salvation?
That it is not limited to who will come to believe in the only begotten Son of God, but that whosoever does receives His gracious gift of salvation?
That what was predestined was not how many, but what happens to the believer?
Just a thought, no more attacking questions on my behalf. We are after all brothers/sisters in Christ, are we not. And the world is supposed to know that we believe through our love for another. Whether you are right or I am right, the truth is, only He is right. My faith lies in the one who died on the cross for me, and nothing any man(no offense) can say is going to change that.
God bless and take care.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 8:12:34 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 744
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
That it was not predestined who will become believers, but that the believer was predestined to share in the inheritance in Christ, and gain salvation?
That what was predestined was not how many, but what happens to the believer?
Yes, it was the process [for lack of a better word] that was predestined. That Jew and Gentile alike would both receive salvation in the same way, through faith in Jesus Christ. This was the mystery that the Jew would never have believed possible, and which the Gentile could never have even hoped for.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 8:43:43 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
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quote:
If God has placed an arbitrary limitation on the efficacy of Christ's Shed Blood on the cross by deliberately placing some outside of Christ's redemptive purpose, would that not make God morally responsible for the unbelief of the unbeliever and also saddle God Himself with the guilt of the guilty...and an aider and abettor of their sin?
UR, I've post earlier on this but I don't think God limits the efficacy of Christ's blood at all. Jesus' blood can save a billion earths if he would so choose. What I think is missed here is that while he has the ability to choose all, he clearly doesn't.
God isn't morally responsible for our sin. He may have willed it, but the sin is on us as it has been imputed to us from Adam.
Your view also isn't off the hook from your charge....If God simply foreknows that someone will remain hardened in their willful unbelief he would still be just as "guilty" for allowing him to exist in the first place - particularly if he is all powerful and could stop the sin at any time.
The real question isn't why God doesn't save everyone, or just some but why he saves anyone at all.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/19/2008 9:01:28 PM >
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 8:47:01 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
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SbG,
You have nothing to apologize for and there was no offense taken at all.
quote:
You see, I believe that He wants all men to believe, but He will not make us.
Well, you've read my arguments about Paul's conversion and those in the Book of Acts. But how about John the Baptist? We learn from Scripture that he was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. How does that reconcile with your views?
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 8:58:47 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 744
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
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If God has placed an arbitrary limitation on the efficacy of Christ's Shed Blood on the cross by deliberately placing some outside of Christ's redemptive purpose, would that not make God morally responsible for the unbelief of the unbeliever and also saddle God Himself with the guilt of the guilty...and an aider and abettor of their sin?
UR, I've post earlier on this but I don't think God limits the efficacy of Christ's blood at all. Jesus' blood can save a billion earths if he would so choose. What I think is missed here is that while he has the ability to choose all, he clearly doesn't.
God isn't morally responsible for our sin. He may have willed it, but the sin is on us as it has been imputed to us from Adam.
God wills our sin, but He is not responsible for it? How does that work exactly?
If you say that God places certain people outside of the covering of Christ's shed blood, that is limiting its efficacy. You can't have it both ways.
If God provides a way to remove the penalty for that imputed sin, but then denies some that means by His own choice, then that makes God morally responsible and not the individual who had no choice in the matter.
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 9:08:59 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
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Then it hit me, maybe, just maybe, I don't know, that the ones who were predestined are the believers. Right. But it doesn't say who is predestined to become a believer, or how many(it later on is said that it will wind up only being a few), or that some are predestined to become believers, just that the believer is predestined to share in the inheritance of Christ and conform to His image. It doesn't say that the predestined were chosen to believe beforehand and receive His grace, but that the predestined are the ones who have come into belief, and were predestined to share in His inheritance.
Yes, exactly. We don't know who will be saved. The Scriptures say that only a few find life. True enough. But let me encourage you with this...in the Scriptures it says that many sons will come to glory and in Revelation it says that the redeemed will be countless in number, meaning that if you look at the earth today and let's say that only 2% will be saved out of it that's still 130 million people. In one sense, it's only a few, and in another it's many. And this math only reflects just this generation! The final number could be billions and billions. Praise God and Amen if it is!
The few in Scripture relates to the porportion of the whole, the many in Scripture relates to the actual number. It's paradoxical, but it makes sense. Anyway...
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Simply put, It is predestined for the believer to receive Gods grace, not predestined who will become believers. Was this clear, I don't know. I almost confused myself with this one.
You can't have one without the other. Those who receive saving grace are those who the Scriptures say are saved.
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So Calvinists, or whoever argues on the other side,
Is it possible that what I have tried to say here is true.
That it was not predestined who will become believers, but that the believer was predestined to share in the inheritance in Christ, and gain salvation?
No, again the two are one.
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 9:53:03 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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Simply put, It is predestined for the believer to receive Gods grace, not predestined who will become believers. Was this clear, I don't know. I almost confused myself with this one.
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You can't have one without the other. Those who receive saving grace are those who the Scriptures say are saved.
Again Conquered, you miss my point. I don't know if I am not being clear with my argument, but let me try again.
I did not say you could have 1 without the other. What I am saying is that what was predestined wasn't the who, or how many are saved, but what happens to one when they become saved. It wasn't predestined for 1 billion people to be saved.
God doesn't say, welcome to heaven, seating capacity, 1 billion. Sorry sir, you are number 1,000,000,001, you can't come in. The number is not what is predestined.
What happens to one when they come to belief in Christ is what was predestined. Once we believe, we are predestined to share in Christs inheritance, and to be conformed to His image.
We are in agreement on some issues, like it is only in Gods abundant grace through Christs sufficient sacrifice that one can be saved.
What we don't agree on is that God does not have a set number for how many can be saved. That in my opinion defeats the whole purpose of a loving God giving His creation a chance at salvation.
I keep coming back to this point, but what you are suggesting is that the love of God will run out once He reaches that preset number.
What you are suggesting is that His grace is really not so abundant, because it does not extend to anyone He did not predestine to receive it.
What then happens to all those lost souls who had no choice or chance in the matter?
Are they in turn sent to hell, even though they may have chosen to follow God. Or are you just saying that God only predestined those whom He knew would eventually come to faith.
If this is true, again why not just cut to the chase and only create those who would believe. Why waste all this time and energy creating people who would never come to faith. Why not just never let those be born and only allow life to the chosen few.
My question is, what would then be the point?
The answer is, because we are free to live this life any way we see fit. Whether or not we come into belief is wholly up to us. It is not enforced upon us by a God who seeks for us to love Him, because he seeks for us to love Him. Do you understand what I am saying here. Because he wants us to love Him, He lets us lead our own lives, and He will along the way make us come face to face with Him, but leaves the choice to believe up to us. He could very easily instill in all of us the desire as you have said, to come to Him, but wouldn't there be so much more glory in it, if we came willfully on our own? and not because he predestined us to? Wouldn't there be so much more glory if He then used one of us to go out and reach someone else on behalf of Him? to introduce someone who is bound by sin, to the freedom that exists in Christ Jesus?
I think these are very pertinent questions, and would like to hear your responses.
To any1 else, if I have this all wrong, please let me know.
and about this verse
" And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely."
it does not say And whosoever God wills, but whosoever wills. To me this means it is by our will, because if God was instilling that will in us, it would then become, by His will.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 10:49:48 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1921
Status: offline
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quote:
Simply put, It is predestined for the believer to receive Gods grace, not predestined who will become believers. Was this clear, I don't know. I almost confused myself with this one.
So Calvinists, or whoever argues on the other side,
Is it possible that what I have tried to say here is true.
That it was not predestined who will become believers, but that the believer was predestined to share in the inheritance in Christ, and gain salvation?
SBG:
This is precisely what I have tried to present from Scripture, except I would not say "receive God's grace" but "be perfected in Christ and receive their inheritance".
Sinners "receive God's grace" in salvation. Saints are "perfected in Christ" through sanctification and ultimately in glorification. Sinners are unregenerated. Saints are regenerated.
Believers are predestined to be perfected, glorified, and share Christ's inheritance. Every verse with "predestinated" teaches this.
But sinners are not predestined to salvation or damnation. Hence the free offer of eternal life to "whosoever will". God knows who will believe and who will not, but He does not limit the ones who will believe.
Salvation is open to "whosoever will" believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Jn. 3:16). And all the Scriptures on predestination will bear me out. But there is not a single Scripture which will say that sinners are predestined for either Heaven or Hell. That would automatically nullify God's grace.
Instead, Scripture emphatically proclaims that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, and God will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. These are direct quotations from the KJV. This is the revelation of the heart and mind of God.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 11:03:14 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Simply put, It is predestined for the believer to receive Gods grace, not predestined who will become believers. Was this clear, I don't know. I almost confused myself with this one.
So Calvinists, or whoever argues on the other side,
Is it possible that what I have tried to say here is true.
That it was not predestined who will become believers, but that the believer was predestined to share in the inheritance in Christ, and gain salvation?
SBG:
This is precisely what I have tried to present from Scripture, except I would not say "receive God's grace" but "be perfected in Christ and receive their inheritance".
Sinners "receive God's grace" in salvation. Saints are "perfected in Christ" through sanctification and ultimately in glorification. Sinners are unregenerated. Saints are regenerated.
Believers are predestined to be perfected, glorified, and share Christ's inheritance. Every verse with "predestinated" teaches this.
But sinners are not predestined to salvation or damnation. Hence the free offer of eternal life to "whosoever will". God knows who will believe and who will not, but He does not limit the ones who will believe.
Salvation is open to "whosoever will" believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Jn. 3:16). And all the Scriptures on predestination will bear me out. But there is not a single Scripture which will say that sinners are predestined for either Heaven or Hell. That would automatically nullify God's grace.
Instead, Scripture emphatically proclaims that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, and God will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. These are direct quotations from the KJV. This is the revelation of the heart and mind of God.
Thanks for the correction Ezra, and I agree.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 11:38:19 PM
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Conquered
Posts: 238
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
God wills our sin, but He is not responsible for it? How does that work exactly?
He permits its existence and uses it for his plans while not sinning himself. Jesus' death on the cross was the most startling example. God perfectly planned the death of his own Son.
But you make a category mistake when you entertain a view that puts you and God on the same level. More on that following.
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If you say that God places certain people outside of the covering of Christ's shed blood, that is limiting its efficacy. You can't have it both ways.
Simply put, efficacy means having a capacity to consumate a desire. God has the capacity and he always gets what he desires. God will not lose a single one of his chosen or as Jesus said, not one will be taken from his hand.
But you can't have it both ways either RU because many sin in pure ignorance not knowing either what they do or what they reject. So saying that there is sacrifice enough for all and yet that some reject Jesus due to blind ignorance of what they reject does not solve anything. You're just trying to shift the goal posts away from your view. And saying that all are covered by his death but that those who reject the covering are damned only means that those who accept the covering have found Christ on account of their own work. Salvation is by faith alone from God alone.
God planned the death of his son and chose the elect before the foundations of the world. There is no issue of efficacy in the way you mean it because Christ's death on the cross was as much done when God commanded it before creation as it was done 2,000 years ago. His Word is binding. When he speaks its done whether it is done that moment or millions of years later.
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If God provides a way to remove the penalty for that imputed sin, but then denies some that means by His own choice, then that makes God morally responsible and not the individual who had no choice in the matter.
This would be true if God was subject his own law. He isn't. He certainly does not change, but he certainly does what he pleases.
< Message edited by Conquered -- 5/19/2008 11:46:51 PM >
_____________________________
A blog meditating on the wonders of Jesus Christ and the magnificence of his cross:
www.sevenmeditations.com
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RE: Gods will or Free will - 5/19/2008 11:50:36 PM
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