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RE: Who will stand? - 5/8/2008 9:15:36 AM
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ta_mosquito
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/8/2008 11:22:32 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1072
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quote:
We don't know how to love and pride is the biggest obstacle. The body of Christ as Paul described in I Cor 12 appreciates and honors the differences among the members, recognizing that ALL are needful in order for the body to function properly. God gave us different temperaments and gifts for His glory. And we spend alot of time and energy trying to snuff out smoldering wicks instead of building one another up.
If we stood against our own sin, practicing truth, and loved our brothers and sisters as Christ has commanded us to, we would be living love and truth to a lost and dying world. Jesus is the need of the church as well as the lost. I'm praying for the church to arise and return to its first love.
I think what I posted earlier bears repeating.
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/8/2008 12:58:34 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 525
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Yes, and to what end? Why do we judge our brethern?
We judge our Christian brethren to hold them accountable. In order that they may turn from their sin. We judge the world (those of the world) differently, with a different type of judgement. In other words, we judge their character in comparrison to ours. Should we hang out with drunkards and idolators... absolutely not. Should we witness to them... of course... but we don't make them our buddies because God told us not to.
quote:
Judging is Biblical
***********************
Yes it is....and I prefer discernment. To me, to judge means a final decision has been made. The facts are weighed and an undeterable proclamation is made. Discernment, to me, means we use wisdom to differentiate between good and evil but we leave the final decision to God. We can make decisons, no question but not final binding ones.
This is not neccessarily true. There is a difference between discernment and judgement. Discernment in the Greek is diakrisis... which carries the meaning of "judicial estimation." In other words, You can look at a person and make an estimation about them... ie: "Hmmm, there's something not quite right with this persons behavior."
We are to make final binding ones (decissions)... regarding our brothers. We are to decide if they are harming the church... harming our children... harming themselves... and try to bring them to repentance. This word 'judge' in the Greek is diakrino, and carries the meaning of "seperating thouroughly"... to "discriminate." This word is used in 1 Cor 6:5. The word 'judge' in 1 Cor 5:12 in the Greek is krino, and carries the meaning of "distinguishing or deciding mentally or judicially; to try or to condemn." 1 Cor 5:12 is telling us we are to absolutely judge our brethern, and He will judge (those of) the world.
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Fpr example...the immoral brother. Now if the church judged him, he would never be allowed to come back into fellowship....but that is not what the bible says we are to do.
The Bible says in vs. 5, "deliver such a one to satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus." This verse is refering to someone who has been held accountable, yet continues to sin. The ultimate goal is to see restoration, but if the person does not want to repent God has removed His covering, and this person is somewaht on his own... turned over to the enemy. We can't do anything about this person. We are to "turn him over"... this verse is somewhat reflecting "the last resort."
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Yes, a decision, guided by discernment, was made. He was kicked out of fellowship so satan can work on him, so he might be reconciled. He wasn't judged as evil and kicked out forever...a judgement. He was found immoral, kicked out for a reason and that was reconcilliation.
He was judged... and he was kicked out forever, unless he comes to repentance.
This verse is refering to someone in the church commiting incest, which is forbidden by the church. The "destruction of the flesh" .... the word destruction in the Greek is olethros... which means "to destroy or ruin, as in death or the punishment of destruction." This verse could mean "to be turned over for extreme personal and physical affliction or death."
I know that is hard for some to take and understand... but God is a just God and He gives people a lot more rope than we deserve.
quote:
It might be splitting hairs here but I do think there is a difference between discernment and judgement.
Right... but not in this context.
Additionaly, the Romans 14:10 verse (I don't remember where that was brought up) is refering to a new and very inexperienced believer placing judgement on an older, 'stronger in Christ' believer... and the older, 'stonger in Christ believer showing contempt and despising the new believer.
Also, we are not to judge if someone is going to hell... only God is able to do that. But we are to judge our brethren and hold them accountable.
And I will go back once again to 1 Cor 11:31-32, "For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned witht he world." If we would do constant self-evaluation, then God wouldn't need to correct us as we continually come before Him in repentance and thanksgiving. 
Blessings...
Pastor Debi
< Message edited by pstrdebi -- 5/8/2008 1:13:55 PM >
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/8/2008 9:38:31 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3680
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
We judge the world
Paul is very specific that it is God's job to judge the world.
quote:
but if the person does not want to repent
If a person does not want to repent, they are not saved. Repentence comes from being saved...its built in.
quote:
and he was kicked out forever, unless he comes to repentance.
I don't have my bible handy but I believe it says that he was kicked out so satan could work on him to bring him back to repentence.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/8/2008 10:40:37 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 525
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
We judge the world
Paul is very specific that it is God's job to judge the world.
Please include my entire quote... ie:
"We judge our Christian brethren to hold them accountable. In order that they may turn from their sin. We judge the world (those of the world) differently, with a different type of judgement. In other words, we judge their character in comparrison to ours. Should we hang out with drunkards and idolators... absolutely not. Should we witness to them... of course... but we don't make them our buddies because God told us not to.
People should not pick and choose the parts of my statements that they want to twist into something different.
quote:
quote:
but if the person does not want to repent
If a person does not want to repent, they are not saved. Repentence comes from being saved...its built in.
I'm not sure what Bible you are reading... but that is absolutely not true. People learn to repent from the time they are born! The word repent in the Greek is metanoeo and means to think differently (Strongs 3340). Are you saying that a sinner is incapable of thinking differently?
quote:
quote:
and he was kicked out forever, unless he comes to repentance.
I don't have my bible handy but I believe it says that he was kicked out so satan could work on him to bring him back to repentence.
Again... unless you include the entire comment, you do not see the whole picture.
MY quote was in answer to a question... and when you get your Bible handy, if you take the time to study the passage you will find that my entire quote says exactly what the Bible means:
He was judged... and he was kicked out forever, unless he comes to repentance.
This verse is refering to someone in the church commiting incest, which is forbidden by the church. The "destruction of the flesh" .... the word destruction in the Greek is olethros... which means "to destroy or ruin, as in death or the punishment of destruction." This verse could mean "to be turned over for extreme personal and physical affliction or death."
When people try to twist what others on these threads are saying... they are only harming the young in Christ... the new believers who are reading them. If those who are posting are mature in Christ then think of them (the new Christians) before yourselves. 
Blessings...
Pastor Debi
< Message edited by pstrdebi -- 5/8/2008 11:03:22 PM >
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/9/2008 7:41:35 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3680
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
When people try to twist what others on these threads are saying...
Disagreeing with your scriptural opinion is not twisting of anything.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/9/2008 8:22:24 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3680
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
People learn to repent from the time they are born!
Repent from sins they don't know are sins...?? I am talking about biblical repentence not some worldy apology.
quote:
Are you saying that a sinner is incapable of thinking differently?
Without God, absolutely positively 100% correct. We were once slaves to sin and it is ONLY through Christ we can have victory over sins.
quote:
He was judged... and he was kicked out forever, unless he comes to repentance.
...and how was that repentence accomplished? By satan working him over.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/9/2008 2:28:22 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 525
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
People learn to repent from the time they are born!
Repent from sins they don't know are sins...?? I am talking about biblical repentence not some worldy apology.
Do you not teach your children what sin is... right from wrong?
quote:
quote:
Are you saying that a sinner is incapable of thinking differently?
Without God, absolutely positively 100% correct. We were once slaves to sin and it is ONLY through Christ we can have victory over sins.
Sinners are made just the same as you and I... in God's image... so in essence you're saying that God is incapable of thinking differently... or that He is incapable of sending His Holy Spirit to inspire the sinner to think differently. You are absolutely positively 100% wrong in this. Again, if you study the Word you will understand.
quote:
quote:
He was judged... and he was kicked out forever, unless he comes to repentance.
...and how was that repentence accomplished? By satan working him over.
"deliver such a one to satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus."
The word "may"... in this translation indicates a "possibility"... "might be."
Once again... unless you totally know beyond a shadow of a doubt, God's mind... you cannot presume to fully know for certain the passage.
This verse is refering to someone in the church commiting incest, which is forbidden by the church. The "destruction of the flesh" .... the word destruction in the Greek is olethros... which means "to destroy or ruin, as in death or the punishment of destruction." This verse could mean "to be turned over for extreme personal and physical affliction or death."
Since the one of the possibilities is 'death'... we cannot presume that a definite turn to repentance is in the future. Thus, the term, "may."
It is God's choice in which way HE wants to use that passage and on who. Not yours or mine... only His.
You know... I am basically a peace loving person and dis-like argumentative debates. I am only trying to pass along what I have learned and I am not expecting you or anyone else to accept it.
However, it bears repeating...
When people continualy argue and harshly debate with what others on these threads are saying... they are only harming the new believers who are reading them. If some could only think of when they were new in Christ and how confusing some things are... it only stands to reason that they must look at some of these threads and wonder what is different between the world and Christians.
Pastor Debi
< Message edited by pstrdebi -- 5/9/2008 2:52:29 PM >
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/9/2008 8:43:29 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3680
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
Again, if you study the Word you will understand.
Again, disagreement is not ignorance. I would appreciate you not infer again I am ignorant.
quote:
Do you not teach your children what sin is... right from wrong?
There is some theological debate over wether or not young children are held accountable for their sins and I think this could apply in this situation but even if you don't believe in the age of accountability, certainly, we all had been taught right from wrong, but there is no chance someone can choose the right without Christ.
quote:
or that He is incapable of sending His Holy Spirit to inspire the sinner to think differently.
I didn't know sinners were Holy Spirit indwellt...even for short periods of time. Now, again there is debate over wether or not unsaved people are influenced by God. I tend to believe they are tempered toward God or there wouldn't ne much of a chance toward salvation but I don't think God works in unsaved people's lives other than draw them to Him.
quote:
"deliver such a one to satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus."
The word "may"... in this translation indicates a "possibility"... "might be."
You could just as easily interpret the qualifier...may....as a way of saying the immoral brother may not have been saved in the first place and if not then satan's working him over would not do much good.
quote:
unless you totally know beyond a shadow of a doubt, God's mind...
Its not me with the cement doctrine.
quote:
in the church commiting incest, which is forbidden by the church.
It is forbidden by God. Who cares about church rules.
quote:
they are only harming the new believers who are reading them.
I could just as well say this about your stand. It proves nothing other than your use of rhetoric to make points.
IF we have to worry about new christians being influenced by our doctrinal and theological opinions then these forums would have no use. I came here as a relatively new christian and what I have taken from this forum after 8 years is there is a great amount of wisdom out there and differing opinions.
It didn't make me walk away from the Lord. It challeneged me to dig deeper to find the basis for my beliefs.
< Message edited by SonInMe1 -- 5/9/2008 8:50:00 PM >
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/10/2008 12:49:27 AM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 525
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From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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SonInMe1
No-one is inferring that you are ignorant...
and I will not continue in a war of words or opinions with you.
I am sorry that you feel the way you do, perhaps this isn't the thread for you.
God bless you
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/10/2008 7:57:45 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3680
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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I've been here a long time. This thread neither upsets me or challenges me.
It does amaze me the conclusions some come to, scripturally.
Do you really want to be judged the way you judge others?
Really?
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/10/2008 10:20:02 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/8/2005
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Okay, been away a few days and I see we're still at it.
quote:
If a person does not want to repent, they are not saved. Repentence comes from being saved...its built in.
I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion, Soninme. If repentance is "built in," then it's like having license to continue living in sin. I've seen too many who profess Christ but have never repented. They continue doing the same, worldy things playing the grace card. God has not reshaped their thinking, reformed their worldview. Seems to me that true repentances comes when one thinking changes and, ultimately, their behavior changes.
quote:
Repent from sins they don't know are sins...?? I am talking about biblical repentence not some worldy apology.
Most "sinners" know what they are doing is sin. If they profess to accept Christ but continue living the same like, are they truly saved?
quote:
Without God, absolutely positively 100% correct. We were once slaves to sin and it is ONLY through Christ we can have victory over sins.
I agree with this, yet why is it so many who call themselves Christian are not salt and light? Why do so many blend in with the world?
quote:
I've been here a long time. This thread neither upsets me or challenges me.
It does amaze me the conclusions some come to, scripturally.
Do you really want to be judged the way you judge others?
Really?
I've been here a long time too. I think we all tend to judge others rather critically from time to time. Yet, in this thread I have not heard the OP judge anyone. She has been attacked several times and has not been judgmental (condemning) of her attackers. Over the years I've been judged critically many times by posters on this site for things I've said. Like the OP, I have been in the trenches, working with the "worst of the worst." My job as a PO has been to confront sin and try and get people to repent: change their attitudes, values and beliefs to change their thinking to change their behavior to protect the community form further harm.
In doing my job, I have found "the church" to be impotent when it comes to helping me help offenders change. "The church" speaks the loudest on sin issues, but when it comes to meeting that sinner face to face, most pew warmers either run for cover or point to a pastor or some other person whose profession is dealing with people. Scripture tells us the harvest is plenty and the workers are few. Why is it we can fill stadiums full of people to hear the gospel but we can't fill those same stadiums with people ready to do God's work?
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/10/2008 10:21:56 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 973
Status: offline
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I know that question was directed at Pastor Debi, but I'll be happy to answer for myself.
The answer is yes. I use biblical guidelines and don't divert from it. Do I do it perfectly, heaven's no, however if I am judging biblically then those guidelines apply to me as well, do they not? Why would i want to judge someone and not do the same or hold the same standards for myself? Jesus wasn't a do as I say, not as I do kind of guy. Neither am I.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/10/2008 10:59:32 AM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 525
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
In doing my job, I have found "the church" to be impotent when it comes to helping me help offenders change. "The church" speaks the loudest on sin issues, but when it comes to meeting that sinner face to face, most pew warmers either run for cover or point to a pastor or some other person whose profession is dealing with people. Scripture tells us the harvest is plenty and the workers are few. Why is it we can fill stadiums full of people to hear the gospel but we can't fill those same stadiums with people ready to do God's work?
Hi Zamdad...
I wondered where you went to!
quote:
I have found "the church" to be impotent when it comes to helping me help offenders change.
What a great and true comment. We have seen this over and over again.
quote:
"The church" speaks the loudest on sin issues...
Sadly, some don't even do that. They don't want to 'judge' anyone or 'offend' anyone. 
quote:
I've been here a long time too.
Soooo.... you have seen this kind of thing for awhile now, huh? (sorry for that!  )
As you said... we have worked with the worst of the worst... but you know, at least we know that they are of the world, and we don't expect so much from them. When you are dealing with Christians however, you expect more I guess.
When my husband and I were beginning our ministry, we had visited a great many churches. Some of them were quite large... couple thousand members. Yet only a handful were actually doing the God's work.
God bless you...
Pastor Debi
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/10/2008 11:08:30 AM
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HisCovenant
Posts: 4737
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Do you really want to be judged the way you judge others?
Absolutely. I'd like to have help staying clean. I'd like to have others pointing out to me when I am lying to myself. I'd like to have others making sure I am on the narrow way. But most of all, I'd like to follow God's way. Even though excepting judgements from others can be painful, even when judging is done righteously, I know that God had a purpose for commanding us to do these things. It's best whether we can fully comprehend it at the time or not.
_____________________________
-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Who will stand? - 5/10/2008 11:18:13 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 973
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
Absolutely. I'd like to have help staying clean. I'd like to have others pointing out to me when I am lying to myself. I'd like to have others making sure I am on the narrow way. But most of all, I'd like to follow God's way. Even though excepting judgements from others can be painful, even when judging is done righteously, I know that God had a purpose for commanding us to do these things. It's best whether we can fully comprehend it at the time or not.
This is very true. I can't say that I like to hear it...... Most often I do need someone to point things out to me. I don't see myself the way others do. I don't see the things in myself the way others do either. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I am wrong. It's those times that I am wrong, that He is teaching me, molding me, making me more like Him. I am grateful for the opportunities to improve. Sometimes it hurts, this is when I know somebody loves me enough to tell me the truth. There is a difference between somebody telling me something in and when somebody tells me something to try and change me or to get me to so something I don't want to do. IOW, by manipulation or guilt.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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