Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (Full Version)

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TomTurn -> Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (4/30/2008 8:01:02 AM)

If socialism is so great and the fair and "have a heart" way to go, why is it not taught more in school from grade one and on up but on a real level?

One suggestion would be along the lines of;

If a student makes a 100 on a test, they should be forced to take an 85 by giving 15 of their points to a student who made a 55, thereby assuring the failed grade 55 student gets a passing grade of 70 and can be more close to the 100 student without further work.

You may have other ideas to post



earthless -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (4/30/2008 8:58:25 AM)

In a lot of large city public schools, that and other forms of socialism are indeed taking place. My wife is a public school teacher and her mother was in the system for 30 years, her aunts are principals, teachers, etc...



stellaluna -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (4/30/2008 9:15:18 AM)

Actually...
when my friend's kid started first grade, he kept getting in trouble at school and being little and new at the whole thing, couldn't explain why except to say he "didn't do anything." After a month or so of this, my friend asked for a teacher conference and discovered the problem: the kids were placed into groups and the entire group was responsible for the behavior of each individual child. In other words, if Tommy gets in trouble for talking, Susie and Anna and John and Michael all get punished alongside. If Susie can't sit still and gets in trouble for running around, the entire group gets punished alongside. Of course, my friend was dumbfounded and asked about getting him switched to another class, but it turns out the whole school was doing it "to see if it would work."

Parents threw back their heads and howled over this experiment, so it was abandoned pretty quickly, but my dad was getting his teacher certification at the time and said this sort of "group thought" was being taught as part of his college theory classes. Sort of the same thing.



TomTurn -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (4/30/2008 9:21:09 AM)

That is a great story.

One more thing before I go for the day

"If a student makes a 100 on a test, they should be forced to take an 85 by giving 15 of their points to a student who made a 55, thereby assuring the failed grade 55 student gets a passing grade of 70 and can be more close to the 100 student without further work".

That is the heart of socialism and I would like you here who spout socialist ideals all the time to defend it.



mapachito13 -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (4/30/2008 9:53:08 AM)

Socialism is when the state (government) owns the means of production and all resources (including the land). Socialism doesn't recognize private property which is something that this country doesn't either. If it did there would be no such thing as imminent domain.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (4/30/2008 9:59:18 AM)

Since this is a serious suggestion where TomTurn is trying to be constructive, perhaps we should move this discussion to Public and Private School Support. Wouldn't it get more responses there?



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (4/30/2008 10:00:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn
If a student makes a 100 on a test, they should be forced to take an 85 by giving 15 of their points to a student who made a 55, thereby assuring the failed grade 55 student gets a passing grade of 70 and can be more close to the 100 student without further work.

This doesn't sound all that different from the old "grading on the curve" system. Bell curve grading was widely practiced for a while, but, to my knowledge, not anymore. I could be wrong.

However, I don't see what this actually has to do with socialism, which is chiefly an ideology seeking to place workers in ownership of production rather than corporations.
We see this happen in our society all the time, btw. I remember when a local grocery chain became "employee-owned." Of course, this was mainly a facade; the "employees" really amounted to a corporation of their own union . . .

But anyway, what you indicate in your OP seems to be what Ayn Rand called "collectivism," which she hated with a passion. All of her literary output was devoted to assailing collectivism in all of its forms, and replacing it with an ideology of her own that she called "objectivism."



TomTurn -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (4/30/2008 10:02:25 AM)

Socialism - Any of various theories or systems of social organization (a school) in which the means of producing and distributing goods (in my example, a grade earned) is owned collectively.

If you are taking from one to give to the other you are saying to the one being taken from (as in my example, a grade) that their grades are owned collectively and can be taken from them at the will and be given to another.



TomTurn -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (4/30/2008 10:04:48 AM)

quote:

But anyway, what you indicate in your OP seems to be what Ayn Rand called "collectivism," which she hated with a passion. All of her literary output was devoted to assailing collectivism in all of its forms, and replacing it with an ideology of her own that she called "objectivism."


I hate it too. It destroys.

OK, have got to go to work

later



Boofhead -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 3:43:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

If socialism is so great and the fair and "have a heart" way to go, why is it not taught more in school from grade one and on up but on a real level?

One suggestion would be along the lines of;

If a student makes a 100 on a test, they should be forced to take an 85 by giving 15 of their points to a student who made a 55, thereby assuring the failed grade 55 student gets a passing grade of 70 and can be more close to the 100 student without further work.

You may have other ideas to post


<rant>
In the Australian public education system, particularly in New South Wales and Victoria, socialism is not taught in our schools, but it is enforced. We have the teachers federation (union) creating there own red army. If the government of the day objects to them, easy, they just strike and when they finish striking they will tell all the 7 and 8 year olds to tell their mummies and daddies not to vote for the current government.

And to make it 'fair' and in accordance with Marx, if students are unable to make it to the specified criteria, the curriculum is either scrapped or dumbed down. Ah, public education; the biggest ideological bull dust in our society of the post modern era. No wonder we have so many 14 year olds who cannot read.
</rant>



mapachito13 -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 5:08:06 AM)

I love public education! It's not as elitist as private education that basically states, "If you're slow or have learning disabilities, go away! You are unwanted! You are not worth educating."

My brother found that out when his son was diagnosed with autism. The private school he sends his other kids to wouldn't take him. They have no resources to take care of him. The public school by his house has special programs for autistic kids since they can't and won't send kids away. Now, instead of the derision you used to hear from him for public education. He's singing their praises!

I think that what's really interesting is that most private schools are run by Christian organizations. I guess they don't feel it is in their calling to help those with special needs.



TomTurn -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 9:14:31 AM)

quote:

Since this is a serious suggestion where TomTurn is trying to be constructive, perhaps we should move this discussion to Public and Private School Support. Wouldn't it get more responses there?


Is a discussion on the impacts of socialism in politics, business, society. School is an example representing all.



TomTurn -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 9:21:55 AM)

In another discussion of migrant workers, immigration, legal and illegal the comment was made, "Sharing means giving up some of what you have. Will you be as rich as you are now? No, but someone else will at least get a chance at what you've had all your life."

I know of no one who does not want to share willingly but when forced would it not be true that we should set an example such as in school and if a student comes from a stable family and makes a 100 on a test, they should be forced to take an 85 by giving 15 of their points to a student who has a bad homelife and made a 55, thereby assuring the failed grade 55 student gets a passing grade of 70 and can be more close to the 100 student without further work?

Would this not help people from a young age understand the importance of socialism in politics, society, business and all and how it is the best way?



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 9:28:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn
Would this not help people from a young age understand the importance of socialism in politics, society, business and all and how it is the best way?

Like I said, TomTurn: this has been done already. It was called bell curve grading. It taught no one anything about socialism, but rather that it was a unfair attempt at being fair, and it was eventually done away with for the most part.



mapachito13 -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 9:40:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

In another discussion of migrant workers, immigration, legal and illegal the comment was made, "Sharing means giving up some of what you have. Will you be as rich as you are now? No, but someone else will at least get a chance at what you've had all your life."

I know of no one who does not want to share willingly but when forced would it not be true that we should set an example such as in school and if a student comes from a stable family and makes a 100 on a test, they should be forced to take an 85 by giving 15 of their points to a student who has a bad homelife and made a 55, thereby assuring the failed grade 55 student gets a passing grade of 70 and can be more close to the 100 student without further work?

Would this not help people from a young age understand the importance of socialism in politics, society, business and all and how it is the best way?


You could save some typing by just saying "Refer to OP".

My wife, who teaches at a public HS has never been pressured to pass a failing student and she certainly doesn't bring an "A" student's grade down for any reason. So, since this doesn't happen at any school, why do you insist on repeating this scenario over and over and over......[sm=smile-l.gif]



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 9:47:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
My wife, who teaches at a public HS has never been pressured to pass a failing student and she certainly doesn't bring an "A" student's grade down for any reason. So, since this doesn't happen at any school, why do you insist on repeating this scenario over and over and over.....

Well, what he seems to be saying is, "What if we tried this, because"-- and I'm guessing here-- "that'll really show 'em?"
My point is: been there, done that without any earth-shaking consequences. So, what's your point TomTurn?



TomTurn -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 9:50:19 AM)

quote:

My wife, who teaches at a public HS has never been pressured to pass a failing student and she certainly doesn't bring an "A" student's grade down for any reason.


Kudos to her and I never said it was happening, was questioning why it is not done.

quote:

So, since this doesn't happen at any school, why do you insist on repeating this scenario over and over and over.


Why do you continue over and over to read into something what you want to see and not what is there?

The question is if socialism/collectivism is a good way, maybe even best way to some, why does it not happen in school more? Would it not show a student through their grades how it will be once they are in the working world how important it is to give a portion of what they earned to someone who did not earn it. Or teach the one not working as hard that it is ok, since a portion will be taken from the hard worker and given to them?



stellaluna -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 9:55:39 AM)

I was pondering this thread...

Doesn't socialism essentially = group project?

I was thinking back to college and how the primary professor for my major taught most of the classes and made every project a group project. She would pick the groups, so you didn't even get a say in who you worked with and inevitably there would be one or two people in a group that didn't have a clue what they were doing. Some of us did complain, and she said it was good for us to learn from one another. I always suspected she was lazy and wanted someone else to do her work. [8|] Regardless...half the group would do all the work, the other half would do nothing, everyone ends up with the same grade. It really sucked and it really taught me to hate group projects. (Even though I know intellectually that there is value in learning to work as part of a team.)



TomTurn -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 9:56:27 AM)

quote:

Like I said, TomTurn: this has been done already. It was called bell curve grading


The bell curve was never about actually taking from one to give to another, it was about grading on different levels. The curve just lowers the bar for all (i.e. in 1 - 100, if 90 is the high it becomes the 100 and the 60 becomes a 70 and so on), so not the same.



mapachito13 -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 10:44:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

quote:

Like I said, TomTurn: this has been done already. It was called bell curve grading


The bell curve was never about actually taking from one to give to another, it was about grading on different levels. The curve just lowers the bar for all (i.e. in 1 - 100, if 90 is the high it becomes the 100 and the 60 becomes a 70 and so on), so not the same.


And so the bar is lowered so more people pass which was your original premise.



TomTurn -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 11:27:33 AM)

quote:

And so the bar is lowered so more people pass which was your original premise.


Actually not. In mine a 100 still remains a 100

As in:

Mary and her parents really want her to get in to a college she desires. To do so she needs a 100 on her test. She studies and studies, works hard and gets the 100. She gets home and her parents say, how did it go? She says, well I made a 100 but Johnny, who played all afternoon and did not work as hard as I did, failed with a 55. So the teacher took 15 from me and gave it to him so that he would pass and that would be more "fair" in her words. So now we both go to the school that takes students that made 70 to 85. And once there I will be most likely required to give more of my grade points to him so that he can remain in it with me.

All along the school that required the 100 still exists, it's bar was not lowered. The student who worked hard was punished and not allowed to move to the level of achivement she earned. She is caught in a trap of socialism where her grade eraned was taken from her and became part of the collective.



upNORTder -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 11:53:16 AM)

I'd bet that the public schools would never teach this socialistic quote:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.



relady -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 12:44:22 PM)

quote:

Regardless...half the group would do all the work, the other half would do nothing, everyone ends up with the same grade. It really sucked and it really taught me to hate group projects. (Even though I know intellectually that there is value in learning to work as part of a team.)
Well, FWIW, I've found that this same scenario is continued in real life - teams are the latest and greatest in corporate America and there are always those on the team that let everyone else do the work but are plenty willing to take credit. Grrrrrr. It's been that way since I can remember and I think it's just a baser part of human nature for some people.

quote:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.
Ha ha not a chance! LOL.



uncabeeil -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 12:50:39 PM)

quote:

If it did there would be no such thing as imminent domain.
There isn't. But there is something called eminent domain. [;)]



TomTurn -> RE: Socialism should be taught in school at a greater level (5/1/2008 2:16:04 PM)

quote:

I'd bet that the public schools would never teach this socialistic quote:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.


The all important, context? You brought it up, you explain it.



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