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ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

Many people don't like what I have to say, but I'll say it anyway because it MUST be said. I can no longer sit idle while senseless debates go on like this. You MUST see it as it is.

Look folks, it all boils down to this. You are either on one of two sides on this issue - not both.

Either we believe that God is God, and His word to us is infallable and a testament to us of His glory, therefore the creation story in Genesis is true as revealed - knowing that God is NOT the God of confusion, and had He done His creation by evolution, He would have told us. Instead He told us "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form. God tells us that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." His text is unambiguous.

OR... We believe that God did not really mean what He said when he told us that "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form, or that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." If we are in this latter camp of thought, then we believe that the writings ARE actually ambiguous - therefore your god IS the god of confusion, and you are NOT believing in the God of the Bible and you are on your way to Hell!

Friend you need to get saved. This issue is MUCH more serious than ANYONE has ever made it out to be. You think because some scientific observations seem to point to a different conclusion than what is portrayed in the Bible, and you believe those conclusions rather than the Bible, you'd better wake up people. How dare anyone question the Bible before they question their own conclusions.

Anyone who would be willing to do such a thing HAS NO IDEA WHO GOD IS, and you have no idea how sinful it is to turn from Him.

I'm TIRED of playing it gentle. I don't CARE if I offend folks, this IS NOT A LITTLE ISSUE. IT NEVER WAS.

Either God IS who He says He is, or He isn't. What do YOU believe?

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Personally, I find it rather insulting to what is supposed to be the most powerful glorious and greatest being... that people take a story too literally and reduce him to a little old man tinkering around in a sandbox, playing with some dirt and creating women from ribs.

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ORIGINAL: drj11

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ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

Many people don't like what I have to say, but I'll say it anyway because it MUST be said. I can no longer sit idle while senseless debates go on like this. You MUST see it as it is.

Look folks, it all boils down to this. You are either on one of two sides on this issue - not both.

Either we believe that God is God, and His word to us is infallable and a testament to us of His glory, therefore the creation story in Genesis is true as revealed - knowing that God is NOT the God of confusion, and had He done His creation by evolution, He would have told us. Instead He told us "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form. God tells us that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." His text is unambiguous.

OR... We believe that God did not really mean what He said when he told us that "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form, or that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." If we are in this latter camp of thought, then we believe that the writings ARE actually ambiguous - therefore your god IS the god of confusion, and you are NOT believing in the God of the Bible and you are on your way to Hell!

Friend you need to get saved. This issue is MUCH more serious than ANYONE has ever made it out to be. You think because some scientific observations seem to point to a different conclusion than what is portrayed in the Bible, and you believe those conclusions rather than the Bible, you'd better wake up people. How dare anyone question the Bible before they question their own conclusions.

Anyone who would be willing to do such a thing HAS NO IDEA WHO GOD IS, and you have no idea how sinful it is to turn from Him.

I'm TIRED of playing it gentle. I don't CARE if I offend folks, this IS NOT A LITTLE ISSUE. IT NEVER WAS.

Either God IS who He says He is, or He isn't. What do YOU believe?

There's a third option: God is not who YOU think He is.

Personally, I find it rather insulting to what is supposed to be the most powerful glorious and greatest being... that people take a story too literally and reduce him to a little old man tinkering around in a sandbox, playing with some dirt and creating women from ribs.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Personally, I find it rather insulting to what is supposed to be the most powerful glorious and greatest being... that people take a story too literally and reduce him to a little old man tinkering around in a sandbox, playing with some dirt and creating women from ribs.

Oh, please, you're an evolutionist; not only is God not even a tinkerer to an evolutionist, He is completely and absolutely irrelevant. Stop feigning insult.

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Prior to Darwin many believed physical differences between the races existed making some races superior to others. The explanatory power of Darwinian evolution provided “scientific support” for such belief.

Here you can see how powerful a force Darwinian evolution is. It made Lincoln say something awful a year before On the Origin of Species was even published.

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ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

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ORIGINAL: drj11

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ORIGINAL: PromiseLander

Many people don't like what I have to say, but I'll say it anyway because it MUST be said. I can no longer sit idle while senseless debates go on like this. You MUST see it as it is.

Look folks, it all boils down to this. You are either on one of two sides on this issue - not both.

Either we believe that God is God, and His word to us is infallable and a testament to us of His glory, therefore the creation story in Genesis is true as revealed - knowing that God is NOT the God of confusion, and had He done His creation by evolution, He would have told us. Instead He told us "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form. God tells us that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." His text is unambiguous.

OR... We believe that God did not really mean what He said when he told us that "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form, or that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." If we are in this latter camp of thought, then we believe that the writings ARE actually ambiguous - therefore your god IS the god of confusion, and you are NOT believing in the God of the Bible and you are on your way to Hell!

Friend you need to get saved. This issue is MUCH more serious than ANYONE has ever made it out to be. You think because some scientific observations seem to point to a different conclusion than what is portrayed in the Bible, and you believe those conclusions rather than the Bible, you'd better wake up people. How dare anyone question the Bible before they question their own conclusions.

Anyone who would be willing to do such a thing HAS NO IDEA WHO GOD IS, and you have no idea how sinful it is to turn from Him.

I'm TIRED of playing it gentle. I don't CARE if I offend folks, this IS NOT A LITTLE ISSUE. IT NEVER WAS.

Either God IS who He says He is, or He isn't. What do YOU believe?

There's a third option: God is not who YOU think He is.

Personally, I find it rather insulting to what is supposed to be the most powerful glorious and greatest being... that people take a story too literally and reduce him to a little old man tinkering around in a sandbox, playing with some dirt and creating women from ribs.

Then I suppose my question to you sir is if you do not take the creation story literally, then where do you stop? If you doubt the sincerity of one passage, then why not another? Yes, the Bible contains many literary devices, but once you discover these you take what they are saying literally, or you chance taking the content of the Bible as a mere fairy tale.

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ORIGINAL: drj11

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Personally, I find it rather insulting to what is supposed to be the most powerful glorious and greatest being... that people take a story too literally and reduce him to a little old man tinkering around in a sandbox, playing with some dirt and creating women from ribs.

Oh, please, you're an evolutionist; not only is God not even a tinkerer to an evolutionist, He is completely and absolutely irrelevant. Stop feigning insult.

Personally, I would rather believe in a God who is capable of conceiving of something like evolution. In my eyes this makes any higher being that much more worthy of our awe, compared to the literalist santa claus for adults.

Who says evolution has to be unguided? People sometimes pray for good weather, and sometimes they get it. If they were to study it, they know they wouldn't find proof that God did it.. but they would believe anyways. Evolution doesn't have to be unguided or without purpose in the eyes of the creator, but I doubt you will find evidence of his tinkering. Thats why they call it faith.

Hey that made me think of a new slogan for ID:

Intelligent Design: Taking all the faith, out of faith! ;)

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It is illogical to make Darwin take responsibility for how other people misapplied his ideas.

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Personally, I would rather believe in a God who is capable of conceiving of something like evolution. In my eyes this makes any higher being that much more worthy of our awe, compared to the literalist santa claus for adults.

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Who says evolution has to be unguided? People sometimes pray for good weather, and sometimes they get it. If they were to study it, they know they wouldn't find proof that God did it.. but they would believe anyways. Evolution doesn't have to be unguided or without purpose in the eyes of the creator, but I doubt you will find evidence of his tinkering. Thats why they call it faith.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
I am always amazed that people will 'by faith' assert that evolution is a product of God's handiwork, and then claim that there is no reason at all to believe it's His handiwork!

By that logic, any belief one might have about the origin of life and it's development is equally valid, no matter how absurd.

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ORIGINAL: drj11

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
I am always amazed that people will 'by faith' assert that evolution is a product of God's handiwork, and then claim that there is no reason at all to believe it's His handiwork!

By that logic, any belief one might have about the origin of life and it's development is equally valid, no matter how absurd.

Any sign of his handiwork, is left to the subjective. Part of the problem is people have too much stock in ideas about how God did things that are really irrelevant to the truth He wanted you to understand. As such, they leave the door open for science and other areas of human exploration to essentially explain away God. That is why creationists are so fearful of evolution and science in general.

If one thing is clear, its that God works in subtle ways.

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Any sign of his handiwork, is left to the subjective. Part of the problem is people have too much stock in ideas about how God did things that are really irrelevant to the truth He wanted you to understand. As such, they leave the door open for science and other areas of human exploration to essentially explain away God. That is why creationists are so fearful of evolution and science in general.

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If one thing is clear, its that God works in subtle ways.

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Tiktaalik is a 'missing link', a fossil embodying the transition of a fish species into land-dwelling tetrapod species.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, part of the problem is problem is there is so much stupidity in the modern world that people would actually suggest that we believe things contrary to every claimed evidence.

I mean at least Dawkins has some integrity here; he doesn't say, "Well, all the evidence I accept shows God to be irrelevant, but I believe in Him anyway; in fact, I think the lack of evidence makes His existence more likely!"

No, the only people who say such idiotic things are gullible Christians and those who prey on gullible Christians; one of the thing Expelled actually gets Dawkins to admit, incidentally.

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So we finally get to the heart of the matter... ID is your shot to prove God, in fear that evolution explains him away? Say the creationist movement really does destroy evolutionary TTOE under a mountain of falsehoods and threats such as that it leads to naziism and immorality. What theory will they be going after next? I can't see it stopping there... not when almost the whole of natural sciences contradict the creation story in some way. Where will we be then?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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So we finally get to the heart of the matter... ID is your shot to prove God, in fear that evolution explains him away? Say the creationist movement really does destroy evolutionary TTOE under a mountain of falsehoods and threats such as that it leads to naziism and immorality. What theory will they be going after next? I can't see it stopping there... not when almost the whole of natural sciences contradict the creation story in some way. Where will we be then?

Wow, you are starting to lose it here.

Look, the bottom line here is, if you are convinced scientifically that evolution is true, then great, you aren’t alone in that. But pretending that evolution is somehow evidence for God is completely beyond the pale – it is absolutely absurd and it would be completely foolish to believe such a thing.

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ORIGINAL: drj11

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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So we finally get to the heart of the matter... ID is your shot to prove God, in fear that evolution explains him away? Say the creationist movement really does destroy evolutionary TTOE under a mountain of falsehoods and threats such as that it leads to naziism and immorality. What theory will they be going after next? I can't see it stopping there... not when almost the whole of natural sciences contradict the creation story in some way. Where will we be then?

Wow, you are starting to lose it here.

Look, the bottom line here is, if you are convinced scientifically that evolution is true, then great, you aren’t alone in that. But pretending that evolution is somehow evidence for God is completely beyond the pale – it is absolutely absurd and it would be completely foolish to believe such a thing.

I didn't say it was proof of God. I said it wasn't proof against God, of course, unless you take a fundamentalist view of Genesis. I did allude that the complexity of the universe, life, evolution etc, that we are able to observe would be a strong testament to the power of God, if you choose to believe in him. I think the simplistic account of the creation story in these matters only would be a disservice to such a being.

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I didn't say it was proof of God. I said it wasn't proof against God, of course, unless you take a fundamentalist view of Genesis. I did allude that the complexity of the universe, life, evolution etc, that we are able to observe would be a strong testament to the power of God, if you choose to believe in him. I think the simplistic account of the creation story in these matters only would be a disservice to such a being.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
You seem to be all over the place here. You just said:

"I would rather believe in a God who is capable of conceiving of something like evolution. In my eyes this makes any higher being that much more worthy of our awe, compared to the literalist santa claus for adults."

If evolution doesn't say anything about God at all, how could evolution make Him a "higher being...much more worthy of our awe"?

It's like saying that the existence of the Golden Gate Bridge should cause everyone to think of you as an incredible engineer, as if the mere existence of it's marvelous engineering should somehow be imparted to you even though you had nothing to do with it's construction.

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That idea is totally subjective on my part. Evolution doesn't require you to believe in God, but it doesn't preclude God either.

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Evolution operating by natural processes doesn't mean God didn't orchestrate it, or even have a hand in it along the way, just as the Big Bang theory doesn't mean God didn't create the universe.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

but their is equally no doubt that eugenics was a product of evolutionary thought, and it's worldwide adoption by the scientific community

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

Depends on who you are talking to; evolutionists Dawkins, Meyers, Provine and Dennet contradict your argument here.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
Depends on who you are talking to; evolutionists Dawkins, Meyers, Provine and Dennet contradict your argument here.

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Well, again, like you claiming a part in building the Golden Gate Bridge, why would anyone even bother believing this absent some sort of evidence?

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I mean why should I believe your argument about evolution over the argument of trained evolutionists Dawkins, Meyers, and Provine?