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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:04:07 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 133
Joined: 1/14/2008
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Many people don't like what I have to say, but I'll say it anyway because it MUST be said. I can no longer sit idle while senseless debates go on like this. You MUST see it as it is.
Look folks, it all boils down to this. You are either on one of two sides on this issue - not both.
Either we believe that God is God, and His word to us is infallable and a testament to us of His glory, therefore the creation story in Genesis is true as revealed - knowing that God is NOT the God of confusion, and had He done His creation by evolution, He would have told us. Instead He told us "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form. God tells us that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." His text is unambiguous.
OR... We believe that God did not really mean what He said when he told us that "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form, or that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." If we are in this latter camp of thought, then we believe that the writings ARE actually ambiguous - therefore your god IS the god of confusion, and you are NOT believing in the God of the Bible and you are on your way to Hell!
Friend you need to get saved. This issue is MUCH more serious than ANYONE has ever made it out to be. You think because some scientific observations seem to point to a different conclusion than what is portrayed in the Bible, and you believe those conclusions rather than the Bible, you'd better wake up people. How dare anyone question the Bible before they question their own conclusions.
Anyone who would be willing to do such a thing HAS NO IDEA WHO GOD IS, and you have no idea how sinful it is to turn from Him.
I'm TIRED of playing it gentle. I don't CARE if I offend folks, this IS NOT A LITTLE ISSUE. IT NEVER WAS.
Either God IS who He says He is, or He isn't. What do YOU believe?
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:08:49 PM
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drj11
Posts: 310
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Many people don't like what I have to say, but I'll say it anyway because it MUST be said. I can no longer sit idle while senseless debates go on like this. You MUST see it as it is.
Look folks, it all boils down to this. You are either on one of two sides on this issue - not both.
Either we believe that God is God, and His word to us is infallable and a testament to us of His glory, therefore the creation story in Genesis is true as revealed - knowing that God is NOT the God of confusion, and had He done His creation by evolution, He would have told us. Instead He told us "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form. God tells us that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." His text is unambiguous.
OR... We believe that God did not really mean what He said when he told us that "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form, or that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." If we are in this latter camp of thought, then we believe that the writings ARE actually ambiguous - therefore your god IS the god of confusion, and you are NOT believing in the God of the Bible and you are on your way to Hell!
Friend you need to get saved. This issue is MUCH more serious than ANYONE has ever made it out to be. You think because some scientific observations seem to point to a different conclusion than what is portrayed in the Bible, and you believe those conclusions rather than the Bible, you'd better wake up people. How dare anyone question the Bible before they question their own conclusions.
Anyone who would be willing to do such a thing HAS NO IDEA WHO GOD IS, and you have no idea how sinful it is to turn from Him.
I'm TIRED of playing it gentle. I don't CARE if I offend folks, this IS NOT A LITTLE ISSUE. IT NEVER WAS.
Either God IS who He says He is, or He isn't. What do YOU believe?
There's a third option: God is not who YOU think He is.
Personally, I find it rather insulting to what is supposed to be the most powerful glorious and greatest being... that people take a story too literally and reduce him to a little old man tinkering around in a sandbox, playing with some dirt and creating women from ribs.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:12:43 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Personally, I find it rather insulting to what is supposed to be the most powerful glorious and greatest being... that people take a story too literally and reduce him to a little old man tinkering around in a sandbox, playing with some dirt and creating women from ribs.
Oh, please, you're an evolutionist; not only is God not even a tinkerer to an evolutionist, He is completely and absolutely irrelevant. Stop feigning insult.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:17:43 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 133
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Many people don't like what I have to say, but I'll say it anyway because it MUST be said. I can no longer sit idle while senseless debates go on like this. You MUST see it as it is.
Look folks, it all boils down to this. You are either on one of two sides on this issue - not both.
Either we believe that God is God, and His word to us is infallable and a testament to us of His glory, therefore the creation story in Genesis is true as revealed - knowing that God is NOT the God of confusion, and had He done His creation by evolution, He would have told us. Instead He told us "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form. God tells us that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." His text is unambiguous.
OR... We believe that God did not really mean what He said when he told us that "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form, or that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." If we are in this latter camp of thought, then we believe that the writings ARE actually ambiguous - therefore your god IS the god of confusion, and you are NOT believing in the God of the Bible and you are on your way to Hell!
Friend you need to get saved. This issue is MUCH more serious than ANYONE has ever made it out to be. You think because some scientific observations seem to point to a different conclusion than what is portrayed in the Bible, and you believe those conclusions rather than the Bible, you'd better wake up people. How dare anyone question the Bible before they question their own conclusions.
Anyone who would be willing to do such a thing HAS NO IDEA WHO GOD IS, and you have no idea how sinful it is to turn from Him.
I'm TIRED of playing it gentle. I don't CARE if I offend folks, this IS NOT A LITTLE ISSUE. IT NEVER WAS.
Either God IS who He says He is, or He isn't. What do YOU believe?
There's a third option: God is not who YOU think He is.
Personally, I find it rather insulting to what is supposed to be the most powerful glorious and greatest being... that people take a story too literally and reduce him to a little old man tinkering around in a sandbox, playing with some dirt and creating women from ribs.
Then I suppose my question to you sir is if you do not take the creation story literally, then where do you stop? If you doubt the sincerity of one passage, then why not another? Yes, the Bible contains many literary devices, but once you discover these you take what they are saying literally, or you chance taking the content of the Bible as a mere fairy tale.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:18:40 PM
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drj11
Posts: 310
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Personally, I find it rather insulting to what is supposed to be the most powerful glorious and greatest being... that people take a story too literally and reduce him to a little old man tinkering around in a sandbox, playing with some dirt and creating women from ribs.
Oh, please, you're an evolutionist; not only is God not even a tinkerer to an evolutionist, He is completely and absolutely irrelevant. Stop feigning insult.
Personally, I would rather believe in a God who is capable of conceiving of something like evolution. In my eyes this makes any higher being that much more worthy of our awe, compared to the literalist santa claus for adults.
Who says evolution has to be unguided? People sometimes pray for good weather, and sometimes they get it. If they were to study it, they know they wouldn't find proof that God did it.. but they would believe anyways. Evolution doesn't have to be unguided or without purpose in the eyes of the creator, but I doubt you will find evidence of his tinkering. Thats why they call it faith.
Hey that made me think of a new slogan for ID:
Intelligent Design: Taking all the faith, out of faith! ;)
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:20:58 PM
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unclemonkey
Posts: 1660
Joined: 5/14/2006
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ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes quote:
quote:
Prior to Darwin many believed physical differences between the races existed making some races superior to others. The explanatory power of Darwinian evolution provided “scientific support” for such belief.
Here you can see how powerful a force Darwinian evolution is. It made Lincoln say something awful a year before On the Origin of Species was even published.
Great distortion!
_____________________________
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Also consider Life's Most Important Queston
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:22:23 PM
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drj11
Posts: 310
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Many people don't like what I have to say, but I'll say it anyway because it MUST be said. I can no longer sit idle while senseless debates go on like this. You MUST see it as it is.
Look folks, it all boils down to this. You are either on one of two sides on this issue - not both.
Either we believe that God is God, and His word to us is infallable and a testament to us of His glory, therefore the creation story in Genesis is true as revealed - knowing that God is NOT the God of confusion, and had He done His creation by evolution, He would have told us. Instead He told us "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form. God tells us that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." His text is unambiguous.
OR... We believe that God did not really mean what He said when he told us that "God created man in his OWN image," NOT a lower life form, or that each thing was created "according to it's own kind." If we are in this latter camp of thought, then we believe that the writings ARE actually ambiguous - therefore your god IS the god of confusion, and you are NOT believing in the God of the Bible and you are on your way to Hell!
Friend you need to get saved. This issue is MUCH more serious than ANYONE has ever made it out to be. You think because some scientific observations seem to point to a different conclusion than what is portrayed in the Bible, and you believe those conclusions rather than the Bible, you'd better wake up people. How dare anyone question the Bible before they question their own conclusions.
Anyone who would be willing to do such a thing HAS NO IDEA WHO GOD IS, and you have no idea how sinful it is to turn from Him.
I'm TIRED of playing it gentle. I don't CARE if I offend folks, this IS NOT A LITTLE ISSUE. IT NEVER WAS.
Either God IS who He says He is, or He isn't. What do YOU believe?
There's a third option: God is not who YOU think He is.
Personally, I find it rather insulting to what is supposed to be the most powerful glorious and greatest being... that people take a story too literally and reduce him to a little old man tinkering around in a sandbox, playing with some dirt and creating women from ribs.
Then I suppose my question to you sir is if you do not take the creation story literally, then where do you stop? If you doubt the sincerity of one passage, then why not another? Yes, the Bible contains many literary devices, but once you discover these you take what they are saying literally, or you chance taking the content of the Bible as a mere fairy tale.
I'm not sure, but thats the slippery slope you will have to walk if you want to understand any truth that may be in the Bible. Avoiding that slope all together in my mind, and no offense, is taking the easy way out.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:23:44 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 133
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Personally, I find it rather insulting to what is supposed to be the most powerful glorious and greatest being... that people take a story too literally and reduce him to a little old man tinkering around in a sandbox, playing with some dirt and creating women from ribs.
Oh, please, you're an evolutionist; not only is God not even a tinkerer to an evolutionist, He is completely and absolutely irrelevant. Stop feigning insult.
Personally, I would rather believe in a God who is capable of conceiving of something like evolution. In my eyes this makes any higher being that much more worthy of our awe, compared to the literalist santa claus for adults.
Who says evolution has to be unguided? People sometimes pray for good weather, and sometimes they get it. If they were to study it, they know they wouldn't find proof that God did it.. but they would believe anyways. Evolution doesn't have to be unguided or without purpose in the eyes of the creator, but I doubt you will find evidence of his tinkering. Thats why they call it faith.
Hey that made me think of a new slogan for ID:
Intelligent Design: Taking all the faith, out of faith! ;)
Who are you sir to question the methods of God and thereby placing your own puny wisdom against His. "Man's greatest wisdom is but FOOLISHNESS in the eyes of God." You play around with notions of what you feel a god should be when you cannot even comprehend the sheer evilness of your own suggestion. Until you come to grips with how evil man is apart from God, you will never understand who He is, let alone be able to understand the meaning of His Word.
"Deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow Jesus."
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:24:28 PM
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unclemonkey
Posts: 1660
Joined: 5/14/2006
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ORIGINAL:1dblthnk02quote:
It is illogical to make Darwin take responsibility for how other people misapplied his ideas.
Misapplied??? Darwin himself predicted that the white race would drive the darker races into extinction as a natural result of evolution.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:25:09 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Personally, I would rather believe in a God who is capable of conceiving of something like evolution. In my eyes this makes any higher being that much more worthy of our awe, compared to the literalist santa claus for adults.
You don't need God to 'concieve of evolution', so that would only make Him worthy of apathy.
quote:
Who says evolution has to be unguided? People sometimes pray for good weather, and sometimes they get it. If they were to study it, they know they wouldn't find proof that God did it.. but they would believe anyways. Evolution doesn't have to be unguided or without purpose in the eyes of the creator, but I doubt you will find evidence of his tinkering. Thats why they call it faith.
I am always amazed that people will 'by faith' assert that evolution is a product of God's handiwork, and then claim that there is no reason at all to believe it's His handiwork!
By that logic, any belief one might have about the origin of life and it's development is equally valid, no matter how absurd.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:26:00 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 133
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: offline
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DRJ11:
The Word of God carries little meaning for you because you have not the Holy Spirit. Get saved sir, and the Word of God will open up to you like the sweet smelling petals of a rose.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:32:26 PM
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drj11
Posts: 310
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I am always amazed that people will 'by faith' assert that evolution is a product of God's handiwork, and then claim that there is no reason at all to believe it's His handiwork!
By that logic, any belief one might have about the origin of life and it's development is equally valid, no matter how absurd.
Any sign of his handiwork, is left to the subjective. Part of the problem is people have too much stock in ideas about how God did things that are really irrelevant to the truth He wanted you to understand. As such, they leave the door open for science and other areas of human exploration to essentially explain away God. That is why creationists are so fearful of evolution and science in general.
If one thing is clear, its that God works in subtle ways.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:38:39 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 133
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I am always amazed that people will 'by faith' assert that evolution is a product of God's handiwork, and then claim that there is no reason at all to believe it's His handiwork!
By that logic, any belief one might have about the origin of life and it's development is equally valid, no matter how absurd.
Any sign of his handiwork, is left to the subjective. Part of the problem is people have too much stock in ideas about how God did things that are really irrelevant to the truth He wanted you to understand. As such, they leave the door open for science and other areas of human exploration to essentially explain away God. That is why creationists are so fearful of evolution and science in general.
If one thing is clear, its that God works in subtle ways.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG... There is NOTHING subtle about the God I serve. You think that the entire Christian faith denies science or that it thinks it is totally bunk - NO, science points TO God when the science is devoid of assumptions that God is not real...
"My thoughts are completely different from yours," says the LORD. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine." (Isaiah 55:8)
"Can you hold back the movements of the stars? Are you able to restrain the Pleiades or Orion? Can you ensure the proper sequence of the seasons or guide the constellation of the Bear with her cubs across the heavens? Do you know the laws of the universe and how God rules the earth?" (Job 38:31-33)
"When I look at the night sky and see the work of your fingers--the moon and the stars you have set in place--what are mortals that you should think of us, mere humans that you should care for us?" (Psalm 8:3-4)
"He made the earth by his power, and he preserves it by his wisdom. He has stretched out the heavens by his understanding." (Jeremiah 51:15)
"You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you." (Nehemiah 9:6)
"To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it." (Deuteronomy 10:14)
"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing..." (Job 26:7)
And I can go on, and on, and on! This whole creation SCREAMS "THERE IS A GOD!!!"
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:44:35 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Any sign of his handiwork, is left to the subjective. Part of the problem is people have too much stock in ideas about how God did things that are really irrelevant to the truth He wanted you to understand. As such, they leave the door open for science and other areas of human exploration to essentially explain away God. That is why creationists are so fearful of evolution and science in general.
No, part of the problem is problem is there is so much stupidity in the modern world that people would actually suggest that we believe things contrary to every claimed evidence.
I mean at least Dawkins has some integrity here; he doesn't say, "Well, all the evidence I accept shows God to be irrelevant, but I believe in Him anyway; in fact, I think the lack of evidence makes His existence more likely!"
No, the only people who say such idiotic things are gullible Christians and those who prey on gullible Christians; one of the thing Expelled actually gets Dawkins to admit, incidentally.
quote:
If one thing is clear, its that God works in subtle ways.
Well, you aren't claiming 'subtle', you are claiming 'undetectable', and this claim is of course ignorant, illogical, and ultimately I think insincere.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:54:53 PM
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unclemonkey
Posts: 1660
Joined: 5/14/2006
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ORIGINAL:essentialsaltesquote:
Tiktaalik is a 'missing link', a fossil embodying the transition of a fish species into land-dwelling tetrapod species.
HERE is a more in-depth coverage.
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Visit my home church.
Also consider Life's Most Important Queston
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 1:56:36 PM
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drj11
Posts: 310
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, part of the problem is problem is there is so much stupidity in the modern world that people would actually suggest that we believe things contrary to every claimed evidence.
I mean at least Dawkins has some integrity here; he doesn't say, "Well, all the evidence I accept shows God to be irrelevant, but I believe in Him anyway; in fact, I think the lack of evidence makes His existence more likely!"
No, the only people who say such idiotic things are gullible Christians and those who prey on gullible Christians; one of the thing Expelled actually gets Dawkins to admit, incidentally.
So we finally get to the heart of the matter... ID is your shot to prove God, in fear that evolution explains him away? Say the creationist movement really does destroy evolutionary TTOE under a mountain of falsehoods and threats such as that it leads to naziism and immorality. What theory will they be going after next? I can't see it stopping there... not when almost the whole of natural sciences contradict the creation story in some way. Where will we be then?
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 2:04:53 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
So we finally get to the heart of the matter... ID is your shot to prove God, in fear that evolution explains him away? Say the creationist movement really does destroy evolutionary TTOE under a mountain of falsehoods and threats such as that it leads to naziism and immorality. What theory will they be going after next? I can't see it stopping there... not when almost the whole of natural sciences contradict the creation story in some way. Where will we be then?
Wow, you are starting to lose it here.
Look, the bottom line here is, if you are convinced scientifically that evolution is true, then great, you aren’t alone in that. But pretending that evolution is somehow evidence for God is completely beyond the pale – it is absolutely absurd and it would be completely foolish to believe such a thing.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 2:09:55 PM
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drj11
Posts: 310
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
So we finally get to the heart of the matter... ID is your shot to prove God, in fear that evolution explains him away? Say the creationist movement really does destroy evolutionary TTOE under a mountain of falsehoods and threats such as that it leads to naziism and immorality. What theory will they be going after next? I can't see it stopping there... not when almost the whole of natural sciences contradict the creation story in some way. Where will we be then?
Wow, you are starting to lose it here.
Look, the bottom line here is, if you are convinced scientifically that evolution is true, then great, you aren’t alone in that. But pretending that evolution is somehow evidence for God is completely beyond the pale – it is absolutely absurd and it would be completely foolish to believe such a thing.
I didn't say it was proof of God. I said it wasn't proof against God, of course, unless you take a fundamentalist view of Genesis. I did allude that the complexity of the universe, life, evolution etc, that we are able to observe would be a strong testament to the power of God, if you choose to believe in him. I think the simplistic account of the creation story in these matters only would be a disservice to such a being.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 2:15:15 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 133
Joined: 1/14/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
So we finally get to the heart of the matter... ID is your shot to prove God, in fear that evolution explains him away? Say the creationist movement really does destroy evolutionary TTOE under a mountain of falsehoods and threats such as that it leads to naziism and immorality. What theory will they be going after next? I can't see it stopping there... not when almost the whole of natural sciences contradict the creation story in some way. Where will we be then?
Wow, you are starting to lose it here.
Look, the bottom line here is, if you are convinced scientifically that evolution is true, then great, you aren’t alone in that. But pretending that evolution is somehow evidence for God is completely beyond the pale – it is absolutely absurd and it would be completely foolish to believe such a thing.
I didn't say it was proof of God. I said it wasn't proof against God, of course, unless you take a fundamentalist view of Genesis. I did allude that the complexity of the universe, life, evolution etc, that we are able to observe would be a strong testament to the power of God, if you choose to believe in him. I think the simplistic account of the creation story in these matters only would be a disservice to such a being.
Friend, I know this is going to sound harsh, but whether you choose to believe me or not, I say it out of love. You speak of creationists needing to prove the existence of God to you, but you say in your evolutionary science that the God that I speak of does not exist - The way that you look through science at the world is no different than if you were to wear a pair of glasses that have been blackened by soot while you scream at the top of your lungs "I can SEE!" It's only after God calls you into His family and you are saved does He wipe those glasses clean and you can truely see the world how it is. The proofs of God are EVERYWHERE, but while you still wear the darkened glasses of your unbelief and your hate of God you will never see them though they were RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 2:17:13 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
I didn't say it was proof of God. I said it wasn't proof against God, of course, unless you take a fundamentalist view of Genesis. I did allude that the complexity of the universe, life, evolution etc, that we are able to observe would be a strong testament to the power of God, if you choose to believe in him. I think the simplistic account of the creation story in these matters only would be a disservice to such a being.
You seem to be all over the place here. You just said:
"I would rather believe in a God who is capable of conceiving of something like evolution. In my eyes this makes any higher being that much more worthy of our awe, compared to the literalist santa claus for adults."
If evolution doesn't say anything about God at all, how could evolution make Him a "higher being...much more worthy of our awe"?
It's like saying that the existence of the Golden Gate Bridge should cause everyone to think of you as an incredible engineer, as if the mere existence of it's marvelous engineering should somehow be imparted to you even though you had nothing to do with it's construction.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 2:24:36 PM
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drj11
Posts: 310
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
You seem to be all over the place here. You just said:
"I would rather believe in a God who is capable of conceiving of something like evolution. In my eyes this makes any higher being that much more worthy of our awe, compared to the literalist santa claus for adults."
If evolution doesn't say anything about God at all, how could evolution make Him a "higher being...much more worthy of our awe"?
It's like saying that the existence of the Golden Gate Bridge should cause everyone to think of you as an incredible engineer, as if the mere existence of it's marvelous engineering should somehow be imparted to you even though you had nothing to do with it's construction.
That idea is totally subjective on my part. Evolution doesn't require you to believe in God, but it doesn't preclude God either.
Evolution operating by natural processes doesn't mean God didn't orchestrate it, or even have a hand in it along the way, just as the Big Bang theory doesn't mean God didn't create the universe.
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 2:29:39 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
That idea is totally subjective on my part. Evolution doesn't require you to believe in God, but it doesn't preclude God either.
Depends on who you are talking to; evolutionists Dawkins, Meyers, Provine and Dennet contradict your argument here.
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Evolution operating by natural processes doesn't mean God didn't orchestrate it, or even have a hand in it along the way, just as the Big Bang theory doesn't mean God didn't create the universe.
Well, again, like you claiming a part in building the Golden Gate Bridge, why would anyone even bother believing this absent some sort of evidence?
I mean why should I believe your argument about evolution over the argument of trained evolutionists Dawkins, Meyers, and Provine?
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Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 2:32:40 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 551
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
but their is equally no doubt that eugenics was a product of evolutionary thought, and it's worldwide adoption by the scientific community
It may have been worldwide, but it was certainly not universal. Many scientists were anti-eugenicists, or recognized that support for eugenics did not logically follow from an acceptance of evolutionary science.
Quoting Dobzhansky's 1937 Genetics and the Origin of Species:
"The eugenical Jeremiahs keep constantly before our eyes the nightmare of human populations accumulating recessive genes that produce pathological effects when homozygous. These prophets of doom seem to be unaware of the fact that wild species in the state of nature fare in this respect no better than man does with all the artificiality of his surroundings, and yet life has not come to an end on this planet. The eschatological cries proclaiming the failure of natural selection to operate in human populations have more to do with political beliefs than with scientific findings."
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"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 2:34:40 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 551
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Depends on who you are talking to; evolutionists Dawkins, Meyers, Provine and Dennet contradict your argument here.
As I said before, Dennett doesn't belong on this list.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Ben Stein is right! Darwinists are tyrants. - 5/1/2008 2:37:40 PM
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drj11
Posts: 310
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Depends on who you are talking to; evolutionists Dawkins, Meyers, Provine and Dennet contradict your argument here.
Yes, but they have no more proof for their claims, than any of us have hard conclusive proof that God exists. They may have more credibility than most when talking about evolution, but not so when it comes to this area.
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Well, again, like you claiming a part in building the Golden Gate Bridge, why would anyone even bother believing this absent some sort of evidence?
Well, I guess thats up to the individual. Plenty of people believe in God absent any scientific proof of his existence.
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I mean why should I believe your argument about evolution over the argument of trained evolutionists Dawkins, Meyers, and Provine?
I'm sure they all are brilliant evolutionists... and I'm sure some aspects of evolution and science can essentially disprove certain characteristics of God that many people attribute to Him.. but in my mind, that only enhances our understanding of God, it doesn't diminish Him. Say science solves every mystery in front of it, the whole of science still rests on axiomatic principles that are inherently unprovable in any sense. There will always be room for God.
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