RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (Full Version)

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StephK -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 10:24:56 AM)

They post the articles from all sides of this issue so that people can read them for themselves and make up their own minds. I guess the pro-global warming sites don't have a biased opinion at all though? [8|]



Bettawrekonize -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 10:31:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
But the Christian community can go on being as intolerant as they darned well please of opposing views?


I did not say this, and this is generally not the case. Indeed, you are posting your opposing views here and we are tolerant. On the contrary, I encourage opposing views to be expressed on all sides, including the sides that both promote and oppose global warming. I'm sure many Christians feel the same way.



freakofnature -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 10:33:12 AM)

Well, you asked for it and here it is:

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p1845.htm

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

I've said all I'm going to say. Nothing more nothing less. You 1dblthnk02, and I will not agree. I have tired of this argument/disagreement. You are the one saying I am keeping my head in the sand, all the while I'm also looking for answers and I have found what I need to know from various sources I have established here. And I'm quite sure that those "scientist" "proving" global warming is man-made and then hooking up with the likes of Al Gore to open large corporations selling "Carbon Offsets" are completely on the up and up ethically and have high moral standards.

I can not continue to post things refuting your thesis, as a blind man can't read and I can't post in braile.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 10:39:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK
They post the articles from all sides of this issue so that people can read them for themselves and make up their own minds.

No, I'm sorry but a conservative agenda wants people to accept only one side: the conservative meme.

quote:

I guess the pro-global warming sites don't have a biased opinion at all though?

Sure, they do. That's the problem: what started out as a scientific debate has become just another platform for the old war of ideologies. Once that happens, facts become irrelevant.

The global warming debate isn't about global warming; it is about the right versus the left. "Ooh! Look-- Al Gore just came out with a book and a movie. It's time to mount up, boys . . . charge!"
Truth no longer matters. Facts no longer matter. The future of our planet no longer matters. It's just right vs. left. And the war is fought in other areas of science as well, but the battles are not scientific. The concern is not about knowledge or the advancement of civilization.

It's just right vs. left. Or, in this case, right vs. wrong. I am right, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that there are always people eager to argue against the truth just because they don't like the source. Like Yul Brenner said in The King and I:
"And it puzzle me to learn
That tho' a man may be in doubt of what he know,
Very quickly he will fight...
He'll fight to prove that what he does not know is so!"



Bettawrekonize -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 10:46:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK
They post the articles from all sides of this issue so that people can read them for themselves and make up their own minds.


If this were true, then I would say that's good. I still think there seems to be an intolerance for views that oppose global warming though (by those who promote it). When researchers word things so carefully, as quoted in post 172, and when wikipedia deletes any opposing views (which they have a right to do if they're privately funded, which they seem to be) then that seems to indicate intolerance (since wikipedia is supposed to be an unbiased source).



Bettawrekonize -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 10:53:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
No, I'm sorry but a conservative agenda wants people to accept only one side: the conservative meme.


This is true of the liberal agenda, the difference is, conservatives seem to be more tolerant of opposing views (at least when it comes to global warming). I want all sides to be presented, including yours (whether the conservatives or liberals agree with that or not).

quote:


I am right, but that doesn't matter.


(sarcasm)
Yes, you are the ultimate authority of truth
(/sarcasm)



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 11:05:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
This is true of the liberal agenda, the difference is, conservatives seem to be more tolerant of opposing views (at least when it comes to global warming).

Oh, yes: I have seen very solid examples of the kind of "tolerance" that that my opposition has shown me on this thread. . .

quote:

I want all sides to be presented, including yours (whether the conservatives or liberals agree with that or not).

And likewise. Argung both sides should help prevent tunnel vision, but somehow this doesn't seem to work very well on certain topics.

quote:

Yes, you are the ultimate authority of truth

Hey, it's not like I said that I discovered global warming.



Bettawrekonize -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 11:18:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Oh, yes: I have seen very solid examples of the kind of "tolerance" that that my opposition has shown me on this thread. . .


I'm sure both sides have their degree of intolerance, and to the extent that any side is intolerant of opposing sides, I argue they shouldn't be.

quote:


Argung both sides should help prevent tunnel vision, but somehow this doesn't seem to work very well on certain topics.


By tunnel vision, do you mean it should help prevent anyone from disagreeing with you? Do those who disagree with you automatically have tunnel vision just because they disagree with you? Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they have "tunnel vision."

quote:


Hey, it's not like I said that I discovered global warming.


So?



StephK -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 11:20:42 AM)

quote:

No, I'm sorry but a conservative agenda wants people to accept only one side: the conservative meme.


I hate to burst your stereotypical bubble but all sides are posted, the liberal viewpoint is usually lambasted but it is posted. People aren't expected to think only one way about things. We are not all mind numbed robots towing the party line. [;)]



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 11:28:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
I'm sure both sides have their degree of intolerance, and to the extent that any side is intolerant of opposing sides, I argue they shouldn't be.

But why do you say that the conservative viewpoint is the more tolerant one? My experience just on this thread alone seems to counter that notion.

quote:

By tunnel vision, do you mean it should help prevent anyone from disagreeing with you?

No, by tunnel vision I mean people that stand on only one source or only one point of view.

quote:

Do those who disagree with you automatically have tunnel vision just because they disagree with you?

Of course not. A couple of people on this thread disagreed with me in a rational, reasonable manner.

quote:

So?

So, what I am saying is that one need not be the "ultimate authority" in order to recognize the basic truth of something.



colliefan -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 11:32:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana



Can you provide a SINGLE study with REAL data, not from biased models - from the past 150 years that validates global warming? You are probably too young to remember that 30 years ago all the computer models had us going into another ice age. Remember the faulty forcasts I posted. What happend? You have just been indoctrinated into whatever the thought police want you to believe.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 11:34:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK
I hate to burst your stereotypical bubble but all sides are posted, the liberal viewpoint is usually lambasted but it is posted.

That wasn't my point. My point was that any website, blog, or forum with a conservative agenda will promote conservativism, not fairness. A liberal site will likewise promote a liberal agenda, not a fair view.
Agendas are not concerned with fairness.

quote:

People aren't expected to think only one way about things.

My dad was very conservative. He used to tell me, "You can disagree with me all you want if you don't care about being wrong." This is how I view conservative tolerance.

quote:

We are not all mind numbed robots towing the party line.

"Not all . . . ?"
Then at least some of you are?



Bettawrekonize -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 11:41:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
But why do you say that the conservative viewpoint is the more tolerant one? My experience just on this thread alone seems to counter that notion.


I don't think the "view" is any more or less tolerant. I just think that liberals seem to be less tolerant. Take the wikipedia example I posted (the URL on uncommondescent, read it). Wikipedia seems to go about deleting anything that opposes global warming. Again, they have a right to do so (if they're privately funded, which seems to be the case), but it seems rather intolerant of opposing views (coming from an encyclopedia that's supposed to be neutral. After all, it's not "liberalapedia").

quote:


No, by tunnel vision I mean people that stand on only one source or only one point of view.


I don't think most who oppose your views stand on only one source. Even if they do, that doesn't mean they aren't open to other sources and their consideration. As far as standing on only one point of view, do you expect someone to believe two contradicting points of views at the same time? That seems rather silly.

quote:


So, what I am saying is that one need not be the "ultimate authority" in order to recognize the basic truth of something.


You act as if you're more able to recognize truth than anyone else, as if you're somehow a better authority. Someone who disagrees with you must be less able to discern truth just because they disagree with you. Sounds like intolerance to me. You are somehow more able to recognize truth than others, so that gives you an excuse not to tolerate opposing views.



StephK -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 11:56:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK
I hate to burst your stereotypical bubble but all sides are posted, the liberal viewpoint is usually lambasted but it is posted.

That wasn't my point. My point was that any website, blog, or forum with a conservative agenda will promote conservativism, not fairness. A liberal site will likewise promote a liberal agenda, not a fair view.
Agendas are not concerned with fairness.


I pointed out that the site posts articles from all sides of the issue, including scientific studies. The issue with conservatives is that we don't want the watermelons *green on the outside, red on the inside* dictating policy with regards to this issue.

quote:

People aren't expected to think only one way about things.
quote:

My dad was very conservative. He used to tell me, "You can disagree with me all you want if you don't care about being wrong." This is how I view conservative tolerance.



Many parents usually tell their kids that. My dad was a yellow dog democrat and he said the same type of stuff. It didn't keep me from thinking for myself.

quote:

We are not all mind numbed robots towing the party line.

quote:

"Not all . . . ?"
Then at least some of you are?


The same can be said for liberals, moderates, libertarians, not sure about Libertarians though [;)], conservatives, etc. It's a human trait issue. Some people are free thinkers and others need to be told how to think.



GroupW -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 11:58:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephKSome people are free thinkers and others need to be told how to think.

Amen to that. The freethinkers are woefully underrepresented in most discourses.



mcleod -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 1:43:35 PM)

You know I wouldn't have a problem with this so-called globel warmiest. Yet to the one's who are talking the the loudest about it. Are using more energy than I do in ten years time.
Big mouth Gore made it sure that we notice the solar collectors on his manison in Tennesse while he was doing his interview on sixty minutes. What a phoney jerk. If this bill is passes on the global market. He alone stands to make over billions and billions of dollars.

When the nut (Al) case said that it was very difficult to get over loosing the election in 2000. I knew right then and there. He and his wife need to be locked up in a room with no key. To have mentle problems in order to loose power is in the same line as Hitler, And other stupid nut who thinks they are better than the next human being.



its_GO_time -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 2:12:25 PM)

Here is what the great Walter Williams, has to say on the subject.



rhippie -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 2:52:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
I'm sure both sides have their degree of intolerance, and to the extent that any side is intolerant of opposing sides, I argue they shouldn't be.

But why do you say that the conservative viewpoint is the more tolerant one? My experience just on this thread alone seems to counter that notion.




You have no clue as to what tolerance means do you???? You have, on more than one occasion, stated that you are right and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong because you interpret the data correctly!!! Way to be tolerant of opposing views!!! The fact that you have been allowed to get away with some of the tactics you have used demonstrates quite clearly the tolerance that this forum and others espouse.



davemiller7 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 3:18:23 PM)

And I suppose you have facts to claim that we (humans) are the cause of global warming? What pompous, arrogant thought! The earth has gone through cycles of warming AND COOLING in the past, before humans had the wherewithal to make any effect at all.

Meteorologists have a hard time accurately predicting weather several days ahead. How can Algore (who incidentally is not the sharpest knife in the drawer - his college grades) or anyone else predict 10, 20, 100 YEARS in advance?

Besides, what makes you or anyone else think this going to be disastrous? There might actually be better and longer growing seasons. Maybe.................... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Were you referring to you or me? [;)]

Good one!

Actually, I was referring to davemiller7. I found it ironic that he apparently thinks that only the other side of the argument doesn't want to be confused with facts.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 3:48:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
I don't think the "view" is any more or less tolerant. I just think that liberals seem to be less tolerant.

Based on Wikipedia?
How about focusing on this thread and tell me, honestly, what you see.

quote:

As far as standing on only one point of view, do you expect someone to believe two contradicting points of views at the same time? That seems rather silly.

That's what I did for awhile. I used to be skeptical of global warming, but I looked into the evidence for it anyway. Eventually, my skepticism was satisfied.

quote:

Someone who disagrees with you must be less able to discern truth just because they disagree with you.

No. Truth is truth whether or not I see it. In this case, I do see it. But truth remains the standard, not the amount of agreement I have.

quote:

ORIGIANL: StephK
I pointed out that the site posts articles from all sides of the issue, including scientific studies.

. . . On conservative sites whose agenda was not to examine the evidence fairly, but to dogmatically counter global warming with, "See? There is no such thing."

quote:

The issue with conservatives is that we don't want the watermelons *green on the outside, red on the inside* dictating policy with regards to this issue.

Global warming has nothing to do with "policy." It either is or isn't happening-- period.

quote:

My dad was a yellow dog democrat and he said the same type of stuff. It didn't keep me from thinking for myself.

Me, either. Funny how we tend to go the opposite direction from our dads.

quote:

It's a human trait issue. Some people are free thinkers and others need to be told how to think.

True. I guess that I tend to see more of this among right wingers than among the left, but maybe that is simply my biased perception.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhippie
You have no clue as to what tolerance means do you????

Of course I do. You are my model of tolerance and patience.

quote:

You have, on more than one occasion, stated that you are right and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong because you interpret the data correctly!!!

Not quite. I merely siad that I am right-- period. Right is right.
Now you want me to say that right is wrong for tolerance's sake?

quote:

The fact that you have been allowed to get away with some of the tactics you have used demonstrates quite clearly the tolerance that this forum and others espouse.

"Get away with?" Like you could pull a lever and drop me down through the floor and to the crocodiles? That isn't tolerance; that's just the way it is.



davemiller7 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 4:22:23 PM)

Yes, I believe life begins at conception! If life didn't begin at conception, how could you possibly explain the baby's growth? Dead things don't grow, only live things grow. (One of my undeniable truths about life in general.)[;)]

-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: davemiller7

The environmental fascists and Algore Kool-Aid drinkers motto: "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!"

Sounds sort of like the folks who believe human life begins at conception- and not perhaps at a later point in the pregnancy.




StephK -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 4:42:53 PM)

quote:

On conservative sites whose agenda was not to examine the evidence fairly, but to dogmatically counter global warming with, "See? There is no such thing."


There isn't a problem with climate change, the problem is with the cause of it. The fear mongers only see evil mankind, make that evil, capitalist US mankind as the culprit when history has shown that the climate changed without our assistance. Are there things that need to be addressed, yes but the main polluters seem to be getting a pass, China and India comes to mind.

quote:



True. I guess that I tend to see more of this among right wingers than among the left, but maybe that is simply my biased perception.


I've seen it on liberal sites and with the liberals that I interact with. I can set my sister and BIL off so quickly just by mentioning Dubya. They suffer greatly from BDS. It's sad but hysterically funny at the same time.

quote:

Global warming has nothing to do with "policy." It either is or isn't happening-- period.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA BWAHAHAHAHAHA



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 4:56:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK
The fear mongers only see evil mankind, make that evil, capitalist US mankind as the culprit

This is a crock. Every site I have alluded to blames the vast majority of CO2 output on the countries that have the most burning due to deforestation: South & Central Americas, Africa, and Asia. The U.S. is not directly responsible for what these countries are doing, although we do have a hand in it indirectly.

quote:

when history has shown that the climate changed without our assistance.

That was then; this is now. Things are different today than they were before mankind appeared on the scene.

I've seen it on liberal sites and with the liberals that I interact with. I can set my sister and BIL off so quickly just by mentioning Dubya.
quote:

They suffer greatly from BDS.

BDS?



Lizahana -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 8:25:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lizahana



Can you provide a SINGLE study with REAL data, not from biased models - from the past 150 years that validates global warming? You are probably too young to remember that 30 years ago all the computer models had us going into another ice age. Remember the faulty forcasts I posted. What happend? You have just been indoctrinated into whatever the thought police want you to believe.


colliefan,

I posted links from the EPA, the UN, the IPCC, NASA, NOAA - how on earth are these biased sources?! Please explain. These are the people that work in the field of climatology - they are not some obscure blog.

And thought police?! What do you think I'm doing here? Most here are disputing what I'm saying - am I caving in? Not in the least - so, no, I don't cave to people, colliefan - especially when there is so much evidence - I mean for goodness sake, the Bush Admin and the EPA even concede that global warming is here and that humans play a role. If you don't believe this - then take your argument to our government, to the 113 countries that were involved with the UN panel; to NASA, to the NOAA - you are disputing their research.

Peace and God bless,



Bettawrekonize -> RE: Global warming- do you know the truth? (5/8/2008 9:09:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Based on Wikipedia?
How about focusing on this thread and tell me, honestly, what you see.


Disagreeing with you and being intolerant of your view points are two different things. You are not banned here, so we tolerate you.

quote:


That's what I did for awhile. I used to be skeptical of global warming, but I looked into the evidence for it anyway. Eventually, my skepticism was satisfied.


So? Whether or not your skepticism is satisfied has no bearing on the truth of the matter.

quote:


No. Truth is truth whether or not I see it. In this case, I do see it. But truth remains the standard, not the amount of agreement I have.


When you say things like, "I merely siad that I am right-- period." this suggests you aren't interested in listening to opposing views and criticisms. You seem to insist you are right no matter what. You are right because you said so. Truth is not based on what you proclaim and you can't expect critics of your views to take you seriously when you suggest otherwise. You seem to have this attitude, "I don't care what anyone else says, I don't care what they argue, I am right --- period, no matter what. I am right because I said so." This perception you seem to have that you are superior at discerning truth (by method of proclamation) seems to give you an excuse not to tolerate opposing views, after all, if you are right, why should you care what those opposing views are (and why should you care to tolerate them)?

quote:


. . . On conservative sites whose agenda was not to examine the evidence fairly, but to dogmatically counter global warming with, "See? There is no such thing."


So anyone who disagrees with you is dogmatic? Wow, that sounds rather .... dogmatic (and intolerant).

[fixed spelling in edit]



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