RE: US Airstrike in Somalia

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rcjames -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 2:14:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan quote: I'm gonna look for the Christian. Liberal or conservative? Well since being a liberal includes promoting same sex marriage (which Obama does) and the homosexual life style (which Oama does), and abortion which obama does; I don't see a liberal conservative anywhere. Thsnks RC

mcp -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 2:21:07 PM)
quote: No more than I condone the genocide against the unborn in this country... I doubt Sadam's body count is even close... We didn't care about his genocide when he was keeping Iran in check... We have no moral high ground to stand on to say Sadam is evil, and we have let far greater evil go on than Sadam... Why? Because it wasn't in our national interest to do anything... John, feel free to use the Navy card on that last post from TQ_fan_4_life. But back to your last point- I agree with the basic facts in isolation of what you say. Their interrelation is where I interpret differently. You realize that as one cannot justify bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior (bad behavior is what it is, even if everyone is doing it), one cannot point out that justice shouldn't be served because it isn't served consistently. Yes, one can complain about the wrongs done by our country, but a group or individuals behaving badly (under protection under bad law) is out of the jurisdiction of our administration. Bush can't declare war on abortion (well at least not literally). He does have jurisdiction in the actions of sovereign governments and vice versa. Saddam was sole leader who could dictate the death of any member of Iraq. He became our focus as you noted because of the danger to our national interests brought on by his sense of entitlement over Kuwait. The sale of our struggle against Saddam "for his evils against his people" is part of our propoganda. Propoganda is a necessity of war, because a huge part of war is psychological and how the different sides rally moral support. Therefore, we didnt go into Iraq solely for his misdeeds internally; however, we always weigh internal strife in nations against our national interests and the call from other governments or the international community for our help.

davemiller7 -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 3:34:45 PM)
I gotta point out that it isn't "our" fault that he went to an "eternal separation from our Lord Jesus Christ." Our little friend who has now assumed room temperature put the wheels in motion when he rejected Christ and embraced Mohammed and his teachings. Well, OK, maybe we punched his ticket at the turnstile.................. -Dave quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: But they are using one set of words and you, the other; how are we to bring about a mutual understanding of where each stands on the death of a terrorist? I guess is why these threads go on and on and on.. Btw, I realize that one can be happy they won a battle without mocking a lost soul. I am not sure who the 'they' is in your comment mcp, though I will say this - when I say I am 'glad' that a terrorist is dead and can no longer perpetuate his terroristic activities, and that it is sad that innocents died in the action, and they say, "How can you celebrate this" or rejoice that he "went to an eternal seperation from our Lord Jesus Christ", they aren't using 'different words', they are being fundamentally dishonest.

davemiller7 -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 4:08:21 PM)
Just curious, Tracy................why do you not spell out God? Why spell Him G-D? Not trying to be critical, just curious. -Dave quote: ORIGINAL: tracydolls quote: When the war comes, the real war, not the one we think G-D would have us to wage, the one between G-D and the enemy, I'm not gonna look for my liberal or conservative friends, I'm gonna look for the Christian

tracydolls -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 4:16:14 PM)
quote: Well since being a liberal includes promoting same sex marriage (which Obama does) and the homosexual life style (which Oama does), and abortion which obama does; I don't see a liberal conservative anywhere. I don't support Obama.

mapachito13 -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 4:22:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: davemiller7 Just curious, Tracy................why do you not spell out God? Why spell Him G-D? Not trying to be critical, just curious. -Dave I was sort of curious too! I know that Jewish people do this out of reverence for the name of God whether it was God, Yahweh, El or Elohim. They'll leave out or blank out some of the letters. I feel it has something to do with misusing the Lord's name. (3rd Commandment) This is the first time I've run into a Christian using it.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 7:08:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life if you dislike America so much, why don't you leave? [8\|] quote: no wait, you dislike the military. Wrong... I was in the military... My issue isn't the military but with those who control it... quote: the ones that give you the very freedom to sit and type the words that talk poorly about me and my brothers and sisters in arms. You know...Comments like the above really don't do a service to those who serve... quote: and for what reason, most likely following what someone else says trying to be cool. How wrong are you...lol quote: this country ((America)) was founded on religious freedom. Overstated... quote: and what happened when the British tried to pull them back? a war. for what? Freedom. do you not think the Iraqis are glad for some freedom? do you not think the people of Somalia would love the same thing? to not live under the warlords? In my opinion there isn't enough people in Iraq fighting and shedding their blood for their freedom... quote: no because it bothers and ruffles your feathers. guess what, deal with it. only a very minor amount of people in America will ever wear the uniform of a soldier/sailor/airman, and they are the true hero's of America. along with the policemen, firemen, and anyone who puts their lives on the line for little or no pay. Huh? I an not posting like I am having a rabbies attack... No ruffled feathers here... Funny, my family is full of vets, including myself.. quote: now instead of badmouthing the military. grow a spine and show support for the ones that give you the freedom. I loaded bombs for Navy working on the flightdeck no less than 12-14 hours a day... Spare me the banter and consider your own feathers getting ruffled because you're the one acting out, not me.. John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 7:19:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcp You realize that as one cannot justify bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior (bad behavior is what it is, even if everyone is doing it), one cannot point out that justice shouldn't be served because it isn't served consistently. True, but there does come a point where the hypocrisy level is such is unbearable... I believe even with the government there comes a time where the beam and sliver comes into play.. quote: Yes, one can complain about the wrongs done by our country, but a group or individuals behaving badly (under protection under bad law) is out of the jurisdiction of our administration. Bush can't declare war on abortion (well at least not literally). Of course he can't he believes in them in some cases... Bush is the last person I would look to for help on this... quote: He does have jurisdiction in the actions of sovereign governments and vice versa. More than the Founding Fathers ever cared to give the Pres quote: Saddam was sole leader who could dictate the death of any member of Iraq. He became our focus as you noted because of the danger to our national interests brought on by his sense of entitlement over Kuwait. No argument there... quote: The sale of our struggle against Saddam "for his evils against his people" is part of our propoganda. Propoganda is a necessity of war, because a huge part of war is psychological and how the different sides rally moral support. Yes it is... Yet the problem is it ends up being "truth" people post the propoganda with the truth tag on it... quote: Therefore, we didnt go into Iraq solely for his misdeeds internally; It had NOTHING to do with going, it was simply something to point at that even stupid people could see... End of story... I know people who swear there is NO way gave Sadam intel about Iran during their war... quote: however, we always weigh internal strife in nations against our national interests and the call from other governments or the international community for our help. Of course... Hardly makes us the Good Samaritan, eh? John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 7:20:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: davemiller7 I gotta point out that it isn't "our" fault that he went to an "eternal separation from our Lord Jesus Christ." Our little friend who has now assumed room temperature put the wheels in motion when he rejected Christ and embraced Mohammed and his teachings. Well, OK, maybe we punched his ticket at the turnstile.................. -Dave Nothing wrong wth taking care of evil... The issue is the 12 other people who also got zapped... John

mapachito13 -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 7:20:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe In my opinion there isn't enough people in Iraq fighting and shedding their blood for their freedom... Very well said! I thought that this warranted repeating! Muqtada Al Sadr knows the 2nd amendment enough to maintain a well armed militia![;)] Are Americans the only ones in the world whose job is to "spread freedom"? Or was that cruise missles?

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 10:51:54 PM)
I only have to ask, have you been fighting in Iraq? ok so you were in the service. then you must know, democrats take over military goes down the drains. and before say yaye or naye to that, best look back. who closes bases? democrats who is scared to even do anything? democrats kinda reminds me of Al Bore err Gore making fun of Oliver North in Iran Contra hearings and laughing while mocking fact Oliver North called Bin Laden the most dangerous man in the world.

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/6/2008 10:53:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: davemiller7 I gotta point out that it isn't "our" fault that he went to an "eternal separation from our Lord Jesus Christ." Our little friend who has now assumed room temperature put the wheels in motion when he rejected Christ and embraced Mohammed and his teachings. Well, OK, maybe we punched his ticket at the turnstile.................. -Dave Nothing wrong wth taking care of evil... The issue is the 12 other people who also got zapped... John have to ask again. WHO says they were completely innocent?

mapachito13 -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/7/2008 8:21:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life I only have to ask, have you been fighting in Iraq? ok so you were in the service. then you must know, democrats take over military goes down the drains. and before say yaye or naye to that, best look back. who closes bases? democrats who is scared to even do anything? democrats kinda reminds me of Al Bore err Gore making fun of Oliver North in Iran Contra hearings and laughing while mocking fact Oliver North called Bin Laden the most dangerous man in the world. So only those people that have fought in Iraq can have an opinion about the war. That's ludicrous! That's like saying I can't judge Hitler because I didn't fight in WW2! By the way the military brass is the one that have come up with the base closings as a way to get more bang for their buck. There was too much wasted money in that area. Have you heard of the 1.2 bln dollar base in Qatar? They want more of these overseas to respond to global threats. Also here's a response to your Oliver North urban legend. North-Osama Urban Legend

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/7/2008 12:37:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life I only have to ask, have you been fighting in Iraq? Nope... Though I loaded bombs that fell on Libya.. That was as close to combat as I ever got... Though it was dangerous enough to warrant hazzard pay... quote: ok so you were in the service. then you must know, democrats take over military goes down the drains. and before say yaye or naye to that, best look back. Not a fan of Bill Clinton, but I don't think the military went down the drain during his time in office... quote: who closes bases? democrats It wasn't only Democrats... quote: who is scared to even do anything? democrats A Democart ordered the atomic bomb dropped on Japan, twice even... As well as wars in Korea, and Vietnam... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/7/2008 12:39:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: davemiller7 I gotta point out that it isn't "our" fault that he went to an "eternal separation from our Lord Jesus Christ." Our little friend who has now assumed room temperature put the wheels in motion when he rejected Christ and embraced Mohammed and his teachings. Well, OK, maybe we punched his ticket at the turnstile.................. -Dave Nothing wrong wth taking care of evil... The issue is the 12 other people who also got zapped... John have to ask again. WHO says they were completely innocent? I don't have to prove they were innocent, GUILT is what has to be proven before killing them... I am sure you don't walk around feeling you have to prove to anyone that someone doesn't have the right to take you out if they so choose. John

Jhud -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/7/2008 12:43:58 PM)
quote: I don't have to prove they were innocent, GUILT is what has to be proven before killing them... Actually, this really isn't something one does in a military action; establishment of guilt is something one does in a judicial setting, which isn't possible in dealing with terrorists overseas.

mapachito13 -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/7/2008 1:05:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: I don't have to prove they were innocent, GUILT is what has to be proven before killing them... Actually, this really isn't something one does in a military action; establishment of guilt is something one does in a judicial setting, which isn't possible in dealing with terrorists overseas. But you got to admit that intel would have established that this guy was a bad guy; bad enough to warrant an airstrike. In other words, the intel showed he was involved in the planning or execution of acts of terror.

Jhud -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/7/2008 2:18:17 PM)
quote: But you got to admit that intel would have established that this guy was a bad guy; bad enough to warrant an airstrike. In other words, the intel showed he was involved in the planning or execution of acts of terror. Yes, I think that much was established.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/7/2008 3:21:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: I don't have to prove they were innocent, GUILT is what has to be proven before killing them... Actually, this really isn't something one does in a military action; establishment of guilt is something one does in a judicial setting, which isn't possible in dealing with terrorists overseas. The burden of proof falls on those who are taking life... Either it be a citizen protecting his own life, a cop doing his duty, and or the military... John

Jhud -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/7/2008 3:27:09 PM)
quote: The burden of proof falls on those who are taking life... Either it be a citizen protecting his own life, a cop doing his duty, and or the military... Well, again, 'burden of proof' is a legal consideration employed when proving a case. No such considerations are employed on field of war.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/7/2008 7:18:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: The burden of proof falls on those who are taking life... Either it be a citizen protecting his own life, a cop doing his duty, and or the military... Well, again, 'burden of proof' is a legal consideration employed when proving a case. No such considerations are employed on field of war. None? People in the military have been charged with murder for killing people in the field of battle... The Rules of Engagement can contain such things... Outlying who is considered worthy of deadly force and not... John

Jhud -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/7/2008 11:22:36 PM)
quote: None? People in the military have been charged with murder for killing people in the field of battle... The Rules of Engagement can contain such things... Outlying who is considered worthy of deadly force and not... But even in terms of The Rules of Engagement their is no burden to prove people guilty; especially when one if considering the firing of a cruise missile. I'm just saying one can't apply the expectations we have on the conviction of a domestic criminal to dealing with enemies during battle; something that really should go without saying.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/8/2008 12:06:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: None? People in the military have been charged with murder for killing people in the field of battle... The Rules of Engagement can contain such things... Outlying who is considered worthy of deadly force and not... But even in terms of The Rules of Engagement their is no burden to prove people guilty; especially when one if considering the firing of a cruise missile. I'm just saying one can't apply the expectations we have on the conviction of a domestic criminal to dealing with enemies during battle; something that really should go without saying. If there is no burden how are people convicted of murder on the field of battle? And I am not simply talking about dealing with enemies, but who we do and DON'T shoot at... If there is no burden of proof a soldier can kill at will, which isn't the case... A GI could walk down the streets of Iraq shooting whomever if he didn't have show cause to kill someone... John

Jhud -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/8/2008 10:50:43 AM)
quote: If there is no burden how are people convicted of murder on the field of battle? And I am not simply talking about dealing with enemies, but who we do and DON'T shoot at... If there is no burden of proof a soldier can kill at will, which isn't the case... A GI could walk down the streets of Iraq shooting whomever if he didn't have show cause to kill someone... Again, 'showing cause' and 'burden of proof' are different conceptually. A soldier has to make rapid decisions based on the actions of others; a lawyer must follow a specific set of procedures, that is due process, before he can act. It doesn't mean a soldier has free reign, but the constraints are wholly different.

rcjames -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/8/2008 12:11:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: no wait, you dislike the military. Wrong... I was in the military... So was Lee Harvey Oswald. Thanks RC

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