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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 4:43:36 PM
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dbark
Posts: 123
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Yes, of course I am. He was a person created in God's image and dearly loved by God. Are you suggesting that God loves you more than that man? Are you presuming to be the judge of this man's heart? Do you know anything about this man in whose death you take such delight? You assume this man is destined for hell and then say that it is cause for celebration. It is one thing to judge this man's actions as evil and another thing entirely for you to presume to judge his soul. If you are going to say you haven't judged him, then ask yourself why you rejoice at his death?
I am not suggesting that God loves me more than that man; but I am suggesting that if I did what that man did, then ultimately the legitimate authority that God has given earthly governments to punish evil actions would be applied to me as well.
I am not required to know the man's 'heart' to agree that his actions required a just response by the appropriate governing authorities.
I am not celebrating his eternal punishment, but the end of his earthly reign of terror against innocents.
It's really not a matter of judging his heart (as I didn't obviously know him personally) as it is judging the actions of an organization that is wholly evil in it's intents and methods.
So I rejoice in none of these things, but the fact that this evil organization is today short one member, and hopefully tommorrow, many, many more.
Well, I would submit that you imply that you believe God loves you more than that man by questioning my assertion that this man was loved by God.
Anyways, regardless ... we disagree. Fair enough.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 5:55:57 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 999
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I am not required to know the man's 'heart' to agree that his actions required a just response by the appropriate governing authorities.
How does a just response include killing people that the appropriate governing authorities have no lawful reason to kill?
John
an issue that's been around since the beginning of time, when "at war" with the enemy....the U.S. leveled entire cities in Europe, used the A-Bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, bombed cities in Japan (in retaliation right after Pearl Harbor)....and, all that's JUST a few instances during WWII....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 6:06:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I am not required to know the man's 'heart' to agree that his actions required a just response by the appropriate governing authorities.
How does a just response include killing people that the appropriate governing authorities have no lawful reason to kill?
John
an issue that's been around since the beginning of time, when "at war" with the enemy....the U.S. leveled entire cities in Europe, used the A-Bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, bombed cities in Japan (in retaliation right after Pearl Harbor)....and, all that's JUST a few instances during WWII....
Actually there are some differnce there... We were at war with the nations of Germany and Japan. The population of those nations made the means for their army to wage war and that alone makes them viable targets...
The situation on this thread isn't the same...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 6:09:51 PM
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dbark
Posts: 123
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
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Here's a verse that I think applies well in this case ...
Matthew 5:43-47 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:18:46 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
If the cops acted in this manner they could face charges and for sure would not be cops anymore... And if one were to kill 12 other people in the act of defending themselves they would go to jail...
Yes, and if the cops hauled someone off without reading them their rights and having the opportunity to have a lawyer present they would be in trouble as well; but that is why we don't apply those rules to wartime actions.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:21:02 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Here's a verse that I think applies well in this case ...
Matthew 5:43-47 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"
You cannot apply that to the action of a government; indeed, not only is it it is absurd to do so, but a government that did so would be acting contrary to God's plan for government.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:21:56 PM
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dbark
Posts: 123
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
If the cops acted in this manner they could face charges and for sure would not be cops anymore... And if one were to kill 12 other people in the act of defending themselves they would go to jail...
Yes, and if the cops hauled someone off without reading them their rights and having the opportunity to have a lawyer present they would be in trouble as well; but that is why we don't apply those rules to wartime actions.
I'm sorry, did I miss something? Is the U.S. at war with Somalia?
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:25:00 PM
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dbark
Posts: 123
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Here's a verse that I think applies well in this case ...
Matthew 5:43-47 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"
You cannot apply that to the action of a government; indeed, not only is it it is absurd to do so, but a government that did so would be acting contrary to God's plan for government.
I wasn't meaning it to apply to the government, I was speaking to you personally regarding your feelings about the death of someone you consider your enemy.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:25:54 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I'm sorry, did I miss something? Is the U.S. at war with Somalia?
Yeah, apparently you did miss something; we are at war with Al Queda.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:26:59 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I wasn't meaning it to apply to the government, I was speaking to you personally regarding your feelings about the death of someone you consider your enemy.
Well, I haven't killed any enemies lately, so apparently I am in compliance.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:34:33 PM
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dbark
Posts: 123
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I'm sorry, did I miss something? Is the U.S. at war with Somalia?
Yeah, apparently you did miss something; we are at war with Al Queda.
Wow ... that's convenient. Al Qaeda huh? So wherever we find an Al Qaeda member we can go enter that country and kill people? What if you find one in downtown L.A. - will it be okay to kill a dozen bystanders in order to get him? You might as well say we are at war with evil - which gives us the right to kill anyone anywhere whom we deem evil.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:36:20 PM
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dbark
Posts: 123
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I wasn't meaning it to apply to the government, I was speaking to you personally regarding your feelings about the death of someone you consider your enemy.
Well, I haven't killed any enemies lately, so apparently I am in compliance.
You have to be joking, right? You cannot seriously be in that much denial. Do you really believe that anyone said you killed anyone, or is this simply the ridiculous red herring it appears to be?
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:43:12 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Wow ... that's convenient. Al Qaeda huh? So wherever we find an Al Qaeda member we can go enter that country and kill people? What if you find one in downtown L.A. - will it be okay to kill a dozen bystanders in order to get him? You might as well say we are at war with evil - which gives us the right to kill anyone anywhere whom we deem evil.
Do you have any reason to believe we didn't communicate with the appropriate authorities in Somalia?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:46:16 PM
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dbark
Posts: 123
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Wow ... that's convenient. Al Qaeda huh? So wherever we find an Al Qaeda member we can go enter that country and kill people? What if you find one in downtown L.A. - will it be okay to kill a dozen bystanders in order to get him? You might as well say we are at war with evil - which gives us the right to kill anyone anywhere whom we deem evil.
Do you have any reason to believe we didn't communicate with the appropriate authorities in Somalia?
I asked if we were at war with Somalia to which you replied that I missed the memo "we are at war with Al Qaeda". Is Somalia synonymous with Al Qaeda or did they cooperate with the air strike? You can't have it both ways.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:47:26 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
You have to be joking, right? You cannot seriously be in that much denial. Do you really believe that anyone said you killed anyone, or is this simply the ridiculous red herring it appears to be?
Then what in the world are you talking about? I don't need to 'forgive' him because I didn't hold anything against him. I couldn't love him because until I heard about his untimely death, I didn't know about him. He wasn't persecuting me; his organization attacked my country and the appropriate and Godly response was given by the appropriate authorities. What you are talking about has nothing to do with the situation at hand.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:48:42 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
I asked if we were at war with Somalia to which you replied that I missed the memo "we are at war with Al Qaeda". Is Somalia synonymous with Al Qaeda or did they cooperate with the air strike? You can't have it both ways.
Somalia is a basket case. We are at war with Al Queda. It was totally appropriate to strike them where they are rebuilding.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:52:48 PM
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dbark
Posts: 123
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I asked if we were at war with Somalia to which you replied that I missed the memo "we are at war with Al Qaeda". Is Somalia synonymous with Al Qaeda or did they cooperate with the air strike? You can't have it both ways.
Somalia is a basket case. We are at war with Al Queda. It was totally appropriate to strike them where they are rebuilding.
So Somalia is a basket case or we're at war with them?
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 7:59:41 PM
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dbark
Posts: 123
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Then what in the world are you talking about? I don't need to 'forgive' him because I didn't hold anything against him. I couldn't love him because until I heard about his untimely death, I didn't know about him. He wasn't persecuting me; his organization attacked my country and the appropriate and Godly response was given by the appropriate authorities. What you are talking about has nothing to do with the situation at hand.
Untimely death is it now? You hold nothing against him and know nothing about him?
quote:
There is never anything sad about a dead Al Queda leader.
quote:
there is certianly no reason for us not to be glad it happened.
quote:
The death of civilians is sad; the death of Al Queda leaders is not.
quote:
We could do I suppose much as we have done in Darfur, which is watch hundreds of thousands of innocents die all the while wringing our hands over it, or we could kill the people perpetuating such genocides. I prefer the latter.
quote:
are you saying that an Al Queda leader is a child of God?
Seems like you presume to know plenty about him and that perhaps you do hold something against him.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 9:10:13 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
If the cops acted in this manner they could face charges and for sure would not be cops anymore... And if one were to kill 12 other people in the act of defending themselves they would go to jail...
Yes, and if the cops hauled someone off without reading them their rights and having the opportunity to have a lawyer present they would be in trouble as well; but that is why we don't apply those rules to wartime actions.
We are not talking about forgetting to read someone their rights, but the killing of 12 people in order to get one bad guy... What grants the military the right to do so?
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 9:25:15 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I'm sorry, did I miss something? Is the U.S. at war with Somalia?
Yeah, apparently you did miss something; we are at war with Al Queda.
So what is the allowable number of non-combatant that can be killed? 12 to 1 is a pretty nasty ratio...
John
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 9:52:48 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1107
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
If the cops acted in this manner they could face charges and for sure would not be cops anymore... And if one were to kill 12 other people in the act of defending themselves they would go to jail...
Yes, and if the cops hauled someone off without reading them their rights and having the opportunity to have a lawyer present they would be in trouble as well; but that is why we don't apply those rules to wartime actions.
We are not talking about forgetting to read someone their rights, but the killing of 12 people in order to get one bad guy... What grants the military the right to do so?
John
Holy cow! Someone who's strongly anti-abortion and opposes military strikes that hurt civilians.
I may disagree with you on some stuff, but I have to commend you on being consistent in matters of human life (Something I and most people aren't consistent on.)
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 9:57:17 PM
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mcp
Posts: 109
Joined: 4/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
So what is the allowable number of non-combatant that can be killed? 12 to 1 is a pretty nasty ratio...
I would assume we would all agree that 1 to 1 is a nasty ratio; but that isn't the calculation in airstrikes.
The measurements are many for these decisions: one would be how many casualties his staying alive would lead to, both combatant or non-. Secondly, consideration of how this action plays on the front of psychological warfare. And if the airstrike gets universally condemned by the West, then this second consideration could backfire in its affect, strengthening the resolve of the very enemy we are trying to send a message to - a message that they are not welcome or tolerated by Somalia or its supporting nations.
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 11:02:22 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 70
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
We are not talking about forgetting to read someone their rights, but the killing of 12 people in order to get one bad guy... What grants the military the right to do so?
John
Would you feel that it would be ok that 238 were killed to save almost 3000?
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 11:16:49 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
We are not talking about forgetting to read someone their rights, but the killing of 12 people in order to get one bad guy... What grants the military the right to do so?
Unfortunetely these guys rarely stand out in the middle of an open field waiting for someone to take them out.
quote:
So what is the allowable number of non-combatant that can be killed? 12 to 1 is a pretty nasty ratio...
I really don't think there is a good ratio of innocent people dead.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: US Airstrike in Somalia - 5/1/2008 11:19:23 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
So Somalia is a basket case or we're at war with them?
If by them you mean Al Queda, then both are true.
quote:
Seems like you presume to know plenty about him and that perhaps you do hold something against him.
He is dead; what is there to hold against him?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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