RE: US Airstrike in Somalia

RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (Full Version)

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dbark -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/1/2008 11:31:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: So Somalia is a basket case or we're at war with them? If by them you mean Al Queda, then both are true. quote: Seems like you presume to know plenty about him and that perhaps you do hold something against him. He is dead; what is there to hold against him? Obviously if I said Somalia, I meant Somalia - not Al Qaeda. Secondly and again, obviously, I'm talking about you holding something against him as a living breathing human that was made to stop living and breathing - which you celebrated. Are you trying to be obtuse in order to frustrate the conversation to an end?

Jhud -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/1/2008 11:37:31 PM)
quote: Obviously if I said Somalia, I meant Somalia - not Al Qaeda. Secondly and again, obviously, I'm talking about you holding something against him as a living breathing human that was made to stop living and breathing - which you celebrated. Are you trying to be obtuse in order to frustrate the conversation to an end? Actually, I made it fairly clear I didn't celebrate his death; I said it didn't sadden me and that I celebrate the fact his organization would be less effective. I don't know what is obtuse about that.

blessedinnyc -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/1/2008 11:42:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: _jjp_ Would you feel that it would be ok that 238 were killed to save almost 3000? It depends on whether you believe in Deontological or Utilitarian (Situational) Ethics. I lean more towards Deontological ethics, so my answer would be that if there was an airplane of 238 people crashing into a building with 3000 in it, the only time it would be ok to shoot a missile at them five seconds before they were going to hit the building- or at whatever point it would become impossible for the plane to avoid the building. But if I was faced with a situation where I had to choose between killing 238 people and letting 3000 die, I'd let the 3000 die.

dbark -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/1/2008 11:44:52 PM)
quote: Actually, I made it fairly clear I didn't celebrate his death; I said it didn't sadden me and that I celebrate the fact his organization would be less effective. I don't know what is obtuse about that. Fair enough ... perhaps I am putting words in your mouth by saying "celebrate", but you did specifically say that there was no reason not to be glad about his death. That's not really that far off, but anyways. The obtuse remark was due to what seems to be an intentional attempt to confuse the issue by talking about not holding anything against someone who's already dead. You know that's not what I'm saying, I know that's not what you're saying ... so why try to cloud the issue? If you have nothing against this alleged Al Qaeda guy and would not consider him your enemy, just say so - otherwise acknowledge that you have said that you are glad that one of your enemies is dead.

blessedinnyc -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/1/2008 11:47:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: Obviously if I said Somalia, I meant Somalia - not Al Qaeda. Secondly and again, obviously, I'm talking about you holding something against him as a living breathing human that was made to stop living and breathing - which you celebrated. Are you trying to be obtuse in order to frustrate the conversation to an end? Actually, I made it fairly clear I didn't celebrate his death; I said it didn't sadden me and that I celebrate the fact his organization would be less effective. I don't know what is obtuse about that. The sad thing here is that there are 11 families today that are not celebrating this military action. I wonder how they must feel about all of this. I wonder if the parents feel their kids' deaths were worth it. I wonder how this makes them feel about our country. I just hope we haven't created more fertile ground for Al Qaeda.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/1/2008 11:50:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcp quote: So what is the allowable number of non-combatant that can be killed? 12 to 1 is a pretty nasty ratio... I would assume we would all agree that 1 to 1 is a nasty ratio; but that isn't the calculation in airstrikes. The measurements are many for these decisions: one would be how many casualties his staying alive would lead to, both combatant or non-. Secondly, consideration of how this action plays on the front of psychological warfare. And if the airstrike gets universally condemned by the West, then this second consideration could backfire in its affect, strengthening the resolve of the very enemy we are trying to send a message to - a message that they are not welcome or tolerated by Somalia or its supporting nations. I am well aware of the this side of the equation I loaded bombs for the Navy back in the day... The question is what grants the military relief for killing non-combatants... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/1/2008 11:51:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: _jjp_ quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe We are not talking about forgetting to read someone their rights, but the killing of 12 people in order to get one bad guy... What grants the military the right to do so? John Would you feel that it would be ok that 238 were killed to save almost 3000? What grants the military the right to do so? John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/1/2008 11:56:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud Unfortunetely these guys rarely stand out in the middle of an open field waiting for someone to take them out. I understand that, but that doesn't make it out to kill 12 others to get to the one person... And I understand that the weapons used are as acurate as possible(I worked with them...) yet I cannot find where they are allowed to kill those who are not "on the list" so to speak... The civil government is ordained for order and to exact God's wrath upon those who do evil... Where do those 12 fall into all of that? John

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/1/2008 11:58:26 PM)
I am in the military, army as a matter of fact. I spent three tours in Iraq. now to the liberals who say we never did anything good. I suppose General Petreyus, whom the democrat elites tried to crucify, spoke in front of congress of the army unit who turned anbar province over to the iraqi's, I am in that unit(((for 26 more days then I PCS to Alabama))) but I am proud of what I did there and my brothers and sisters in the military. I have pictures where the walls on the streets are painted with sayings like Graveyard of Americans and death to the infidels. If anyone doesnt know, Infidels is anyone not Moslem. last march we drove al-queda from Ar Ramadi. and no we did not do it by buying them cakes and playing paddycake with them. it took a lot of brutal gunfights. but when we left Iraq in December, it was to the praises and appreciation from the Iraqi's. and to the one from Canada, I dont see Canadians leading the way into battle, so don't be saying we on everything. if offended, oh well. [&:] for John who posted just then, 3000 men and women in NYC and on the flight over Pa as well as all the other terrorist strikes against the military says it will happen. wars will be fought. to the one who quoted the Bible, The Bible is the bloodiest and most war fill book ever to be written. and Iraq is second only to Isreal in being mentioned in the Bible.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:10:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life for John who posted just then, 3000 men and women in NYC and on the flight over Pa as well as all the other terrorist strikes against the military says it will happen. wars will be fought. Doesn't grant the military the freedom to blast its way through those not flying planes into buildings... quote: to the one who quoted the Bible, The Bible is the bloodiest and most war fill book ever to be written. and Iraq is second only to Isreal in being mentioned in the Bible. What does that amount to? Some form of justifcation? John

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:10:30 AM)
now as for Somalia, the US military has had soldiers in Horn of Africa region for a long time. and yes the day that Blackhawk Down occured was a sad day in military history, but they didn't pack up and leave the region. have maintained a presence there. as for the "civilians" killed, the Doctor and others will put out what they want to be put out. in other words, say what they want to be said. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure one of them was protecting someone.

Jhud -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:12:17 AM)
quote: Fair enough ... perhaps I am putting words in your mouth by saying "celebrate", but you did specifically say that there was no reason not to be glad about his death. That's not really that far off, but anyways. The obtuse remark was due to what seems to be an intentional attempt to confuse the issue by talking about not holding anything against someone who's already dead. You know that's not what I'm saying, I know that's not what you're saying ... so why try to cloud the issue? If you have nothing against this alleged Al Qaeda guy and would not consider him your enemy, just say so - otherwise acknowledge that you have said that you are glad that one of your enemies is dead. I am glad that someone who was part of an organization that regularly plans the deaths of innocents is dead. What is so hard to understand about this?

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:13:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life for John who posted just then, 3000 men and women in NYC and on the flight over Pa as well as all the other terrorist strikes against the military says it will happen. wars will be fought. Doesn't grant the military the freedom to blast its way through those not flying planes into buildings... quote: to the one who quoted the Bible, The Bible is the bloodiest and most war fill book ever to be written. and Iraq is second only to Isreal in being mentioned in the Bible. What does that amount to? Some form of justifcation? John ok how do you think we should do? let IED's go off in the US? I wonder what your street would look like when bombs like the one that hit Oklahoma City go off regularly. would you sit and fuss about the men that go to get the ones behind it? and you have lost me on justification. quoting the Bible saying should turn other cheek and love your neighbor and all. yes those are in the Bible, and so is wars and bloodshed. many of them as a matter of fact.

Jhud -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:16:34 AM)
quote: The sad thing here is that there are 11 families today that are not celebrating this military action. I wonder how they must feel about all of this. I wonder if the parents feel their kids' deaths were worth it. I wonder how this makes them feel about our country. I just hope we haven't created more fertile ground for Al Qaeda. Well the fact is we don't know anything about them; they could have been hiding the terrorist leader for all we know. Either way, the reality is these guys aren't going to come out with there hands up so we can safely deliver them to rehibilitation, so either we accept that there may be unintentional casualties as we deal with them, or we pack it all up and come home, and hope they are nice to us from now on.

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:19:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: The sad thing here is that there are 11 families today that are not celebrating this military action. I wonder how they must feel about all of this. I wonder if the parents feel their kids' deaths were worth it. I wonder how this makes them feel about our country. I just hope we haven't created more fertile ground for Al Qaeda. Well the fact is we don't know anything about them; they could have been hiding the terrorist leader for all we know. Either way, the reality is these guys aren't going to come out with there hands up so we can safely deliver them to rehibilitation, so either we accept that there may be unintentional casualties as we deal with them, or we pack it all up and come home, and hope they are nice to us from now on. Can I get an Amen

dbark -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:27:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: Fair enough ... perhaps I am putting words in your mouth by saying "celebrate", but you did specifically say that there was no reason not to be glad about his death. That's not really that far off, but anyways. The obtuse remark was due to what seems to be an intentional attempt to confuse the issue by talking about not holding anything against someone who's already dead. You know that's not what I'm saying, I know that's not what you're saying ... so why try to cloud the issue? If you have nothing against this alleged Al Qaeda guy and would not consider him your enemy, just say so - otherwise acknowledge that you have said that you are glad that one of your enemies is dead. I am glad that someone who was part of an organization that regularly plans the deaths of innocents is dead. What is so hard to understand about this? What's so hard to understand is how that lines up with this - Matthew 5:43-47 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"

Jhud -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:31:36 AM)
quote: What's so hard to understand is how that lines up with this Because I didn't hate him, and he didn't persecute me; I just am glad that he can no longer hurt innocents.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:32:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life ok how do you think we should do? let IED's go off in the US? Killing people not involved doesn't help the cause... quote: I wonder what your street would look like when bombs like the one that hit Oklahoma City go off regularly. Ok... I not all that worried... I fear God more than I do terrorist... I wonder what God thinks of a nation that allows its citizens to murder the unborn in numbers that make the death related to terrorism look like a joke while it chases bad guys around the world killing people not involved in terrorism... What moral high ground are we operating from? quote: would you sit and fuss about the men that go to get the ones behind it? If they killed my family to kill the terrorist I would... quote: and you have lost me on justification. quoting the Bible saying should turn other cheek and love your neighbor and all. yes those are in the Bible, and so is wars and bloodshed. many of them as a matter of fact. The fact that wars are in the bible doesn't grant that war in itself is always just... John

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:33:10 AM)
what about all the wars and bloodshed in the Bible? should we forget those parts are in there? try when the People of Egypt were drowned in the Red Sea. how about when the first born of the Egyptians was killed if the sacrafice wasn't made?

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:38:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life what about all the wars and bloodshed in the Bible? should we forget those parts are in there? try when the People of Egypt were drowned in the Red Sea. how about when the first born of the Egyptians was killed if the sacrafice wasn't made? What about God sending Pharaoh and his captian into the sea? What about the Passover? What does that have to do with people being killed that didn't do anything wrong to have their life taken? What about Joshua at Jericho putting men, women and children to the sword, or even God flooding the world and only having eight folks on the Ark while the rest of the world drowned... What does any of that have to do with this subject? John

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:39:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life ok how do you think we should do? let IED's go off in the US? Killing people not involved doesn't help the cause... quote: I wonder what your street would look like when bombs like the one that hit Oklahoma City go off regularly. Ok... I not all that worried... I fear God more than I do terrorist... I wonder what God thinks of a nation that allows its citizens to murder the unborn in numbers that make the death related to terrorism look like a joke while it chases bad guys around the world killing people not involved in terrorism... What moral high ground are we operating from? quote: would you sit and fuss about the men that go to get the ones behind it? If they killed my family to kill the terrorist I would... quote: and you have lost me on justification. quoting the Bible saying should turn other cheek and love your neighbor and all. yes those are in the Bible, and so is wars and bloodshed. many of them as a matter of fact. The fact that wars are in the bible doesn't grant that war in itself is always just... John so what shouyld we do? allow 9-11 to happen repeatedly? hmmm. isn't this the same God that had His angel kill the first born son of each household in Egypt to prove to the Egyptians that the children of Isreal should be freed? what if the terrorist killed your family? so who are you to judge when wars are justified? and what proof do you have they were not involved? some quote from someone? apparently you haven't seen where the terrorists use women and children to do their dirty work. maybe they were, maybe they weren't. I am not saying they are or aren't, but having been there((southwest asia and horn of africa))), you kinda learn to never doubt anything.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:40:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud Either way, the reality is these guys aren't going to come out with there hands up so we can safely deliver them to rehibilitation, so either we accept that there may be unintentional casualties as we deal with them, or we pack it all up and come home, and hope they are nice to us from now on. I guess they'll have to bring it to the shores of the United States before killing 12 people to get the bad guy will be seen as something to deal with... John

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:42:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life what about all the wars and bloodshed in the Bible? should we forget those parts are in there? try when the People of Egypt were drowned in the Red Sea. how about when the first born of the Egyptians was killed if the sacrafice wasn't made? What about God sending Pharaoh and his captian into the sea? What about the Passover? What does that have to do with people being killed that didn't do anything wrong to have their life taken? What about Joshua at Jericho putting men, women and children to the sword, or even God flooding the world and only having eight folks on the Ark while the rest of the world drowned... What does any of that have to do with this subject? John because as much as is being quoted of love your neighbor in the Bible, is as much bloodshed and wars in the same book. and yes I believe in God. I won't call myself a Christian because that's a man made term and my walk with Christ is more personal than that. He is everything to me and more. but that was to the one who keeps quoted Matthew. war is in same book. lot of bloodshed in the book.

TQ_Fan_4_Life -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:45:09 AM)
and on that post, I am off to bed because someone higher in my chain of command thinks a ruck march is fun to do. goodnight and God bless you all. no hard feelings just this is a touchy subject for me. I have seen first hand what those people do to make life miserable and seen how much getting them out and freeing people to have some freedom means to the ones freed.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: US Airstrike in Somalia (5/2/2008 12:49:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TQ_Fan_4_Life so what shouyld we do? allow 9-11 to happen repeatedly? I don't believe killing those not on the list isn't going to make terrorism go away... quote: hmmm. isn't this the same God that had His angel kill the first born son of each household in Egypt to prove to the Egyptians that the children of Isreal should be freed? Are you contending you or the US is operating with the full authority of God? quote: what if the terrorist killed your family? Given a ratio of 12 to 1 who should I fear more? quote: so who are you to judge when wars are justified? Read it again... The fact that wars are in the bible doesn't grant that war in itself is always just... quote: apparently you haven't seen where the terrorists use women and children to do their dirty work. I am well aware of how things work.... quote: maybe they were, maybe they weren't. I am not saying they are or aren't, but having been there((southwest asia and horn of africa))), you kinda learn to never doubt anything. When you are taking life you better know... John

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