RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (Full Version)

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Jhud -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/7/2008 4:38:50 PM)

quote:

As a christian you have rejected the entire Qu'ran, Vedas, Book of Mormon, etc. If we compare the stack of holy texts that you and drj11 reject I am guessing that they will be very close the same height.


I have never understand this line of argument; we all accept and reject a certain number of metaphysical tenets; it tells us nothing to say that certain people have accepted more or less than others.



swan42 -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/7/2008 8:10:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

As a christian you have rejected the entire Qu'ran, Vedas, Book of Mormon, etc. If we compare the stack of holy texts that you and drj11 reject I am guessing that they will be very close the same height.


I have never understand this line of argument; we all accept and reject a certain number of metaphysical tenets; it tells us nothing to say that certain people have accepted more or less than others.


This line of reasoning attempts to use religious relativism by putting other religious documents as equal to the Bible and consequently it is supposed to deflect criticism that someone rejects this or that passage or book in the Bible, and therefore the person criticized is not worth listening too. The problem with using this angle is that it almost always always falls on deaf ears because the criticizer has little or no regard for these other documents.



unclemonkey -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/7/2008 10:03:11 PM)

ORIGINAL:swan42
quote:

This line of reasoning attempts to use religious relativism by putting other religious documents as equal to the Bible and consequently it is supposed to deflect criticism that someone rejects this or that passage or book in the Bible, and therefore the person criticized is not worth listening too. The problem with using this angle is that it almost always always falls on deaf ears because the criticizer has little or no regard for these other documents.

Thank you. I couldn’t have said it better.



ManimalX -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/8/2008 3:31:47 AM)

No problem.

I thought you might have some bombshell about the KT boundary to drop once someone laid out the theory ;)

The whole thing is still surrounded in mystery. There is not really any visual evidence of this crater as it is completely fille in by sediment, but rather it was discovered, I think, by oil exploration teams using various techniques. The crater is rather unusually shaped, and as far as I know there is no evidence for the explanations used to account for the unexpected inner ring of the crater.

It wouldn't surprise me if this impact was a trigger of some sort in the Noahic flood.


As far as rejecting other "holy" books, we as Christians believe in an objective truth. Truth by its very nature is exclusive. Thus, when we have the Truth as revealed by the Creator, as we do in the Bible, the contradictions and logical errors of man-made or demonically inspired writings (such as the Quran) become glaringly obvious and must be rejected.



swan42 -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/8/2008 5:00:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX
As far as rejecting other "holy" books, we as Christians believe in an objective truth. Truth by its very nature is exclusive.

Yet, somehow among Christians there is disagreement about the specifics in the objective truth, how to teach the objective truth, or how to live one's life based on the objective truth, otherwise there wouldn't be so many Christian denominations. There are so many different "exclusive" clubs. Yes Christians believe in an objective truth, but not all Christians believe in the same objective truth. Obviously, either quite a few Christians are incorrect, or truth is subjective.



drj11 -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/8/2008 9:59:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: swan42

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX
As far as rejecting other "holy" books, we as Christians believe in an objective truth. Truth by its very nature is exclusive.

Yet, somehow among Christians there is disagreement about the specifics in the objective truth, how to teach the objective truth, or how to live one's life based on the objective truth, otherwise there wouldn't be so many Christian denominations. There are so many different "exclusive" clubs. Yes Christians believe in an objective truth, but not all Christians believe in the same objective truth. Obviously, either quite a few Christians are incorrect, or truth is subjective.


Ding, ding we have a winner!

This is the whole problem I have observed with fundamentalists... apparent lack of ability for any self-reflection or honest questioning about their own beliefs.

The other Christian who doesn't believe the same as them must question his beliefs. But the fundamentalist refuses to question his own or ever give consideration to the idea that maybe they got it wrong or only partially right etc. This absurd idea is so powerful, you have people actually claiming the world is 6k years old. Out of all the religions, out of all the versions of the Bible, and of all the interpretations, they just happened to get the right one, and there's nothing else to be said about it. And all those other Christians are just wrong! [8|]



drmark -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/8/2008 10:40:16 AM)

quote:

Obviously, either quite a few Christians are incorrect, or truth is subjective.
Nope, not at all! The real answer is that too many self-professed Christians are self-deceived. Read Matt 7:21, Matt 25:41-46, and 2 Tim 2:19 for Truth!



drj11 -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/8/2008 10:42:38 AM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Obviously, either quite a few Christians are incorrect, or truth is subjective.
Nope, not at all! The real answer is that too many self-professed Christians are self-deceived. Read Matt 7:21, Matt 25:41-46, and 2 Tim 2:19 for Truth!


And here is a perfect example of what I was talking about in my previous post in this thread. All those other Christians are wrong, not me!



drmark -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/8/2008 10:55:43 AM)

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This is the whole problem I have observed with fundamentalists... apparent lack of ability for any self-reflection or honest questioning about their own beliefs.
Wrong again, drj. Although you did use the qualifier "apparent" so there seems to be some hope here. True Christians are constantly involved in "self-reflection or honest questioning" as the Holy Spirit guides us. Did you bother to read the Scripture passages above or just reflexively react to your perceived biases toward faith?



gluadys -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/8/2008 11:24:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drj11

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Obviously, either quite a few Christians are incorrect, or truth is subjective.
Nope, not at all! The real answer is that too many self-professed Christians are self-deceived. Read Matt 7:21, Matt 25:41-46, and 2 Tim 2:19 for Truth!


And here is a perfect example of what I was talking about in my previous post in this thread. All those other Christians are wrong, not me!


Just what I was thinking. Fundamentalists can only assert their "perfect" understanding of Christianity by consigning the majority of Christians, past and present (including some past fundamentalists) to the category of those who are compromised/deceived, unbelieving wolves in sheep's clothing. The true Scotsman's fallacy in full bloom.



swan42 -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/8/2008 1:30:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Obviously, either quite a few Christians are incorrect, or truth is subjective.
Nope, not at all! The real answer is that too many self-professed Christians are self-deceived. Read Matt 7:21, Matt 25:41-46, and 2 Tim 2:19 for Truth!

Yes yes, the self-deceived are incorrect Or.. truth is subjective. You think it is the former, I think it is the latter, and we won't know with 100% certainty in our lifetime.



Zuniceratops -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/8/2008 3:48:08 PM)

quote:

Yes yes, the self-deceived are incorrect Or.. truth is subjective. You think it is the former, I think it is the latter, and we won't know with 100% certainty in our lifetime.

Well, I'll say one thing to that. If what the Bible says is true, and there is a heaven and hell after we die, and Jesus is the only way to heaven, and all who don't go through him are going to hell, you had better hope that we have some objective way of knowing before we die, or else there are clueless millions on this planet headed toward major trouble.



Method -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/8/2008 3:49:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
I have never understand this line of argument; we all accept and reject a certain number of metaphysical tenets; it tells us nothing to say that certain people have accepted more or less than others.


If rejecting a metaphysical tenet makes you incapable of judging reality then we are all equally incapable of judging reality. Wouldn't you agree?

The high horse of creationism pretends as if the only possible religion to disbelieve is christianity. It's a very closed minded view of humanity. If rejecting the validity of a holy text automatically makes someone wrong, no matter what, then we are all wrong.



Jhud -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/8/2008 11:18:13 PM)

quote:

Yes yes, the self-deceived are incorrect Or.. truth is subjective. You think it is the former, I think it is the latter, and we won't know with 100% certainty in our lifetime.


'Subjective truth' is essentially an oxymoron, unless one doesn't believe in an objective reality.



gluadys -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/9/2008 12:29:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Yes yes, the self-deceived are incorrect Or.. truth is subjective. You think it is the former, I think it is the latter, and we won't know with 100% certainty in our lifetime.


'Subjective truth' is essentially an oxymoron, unless one doesn't believe in an objective reality.



I take it you don't think much of the philosophy of Kierkegaard.



ManimalX -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/9/2008 2:40:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX
As far as rejecting other "holy" books, we as Christians believe in an objective truth. Truth by its very nature is exclusive.


quote:

ORIGINAL: swan42
Yet, somehow among Christians there is disagreement about the specifics in the objective truth, how to teach the objective truth, or how to live one's life based on the objective truth, otherwise there wouldn't be so many Christian denominations. There are so many different "exclusive" clubs. Yes Christians believe in an objective truth, but not all Christians believe in the same objective truth. Obviously, either quite a few Christians are incorrect, or truth is subjective.


The thing is there are only a few bits a person has to have right. God made, man sinned, God paid, man accepts and waits or rejects and waits. Most of the differences between denominations are pretty superficial. The problem is that unbelievers like to find some make-believers and then pretend that they are representative of believers. As J. Vernon McGee used to say, "I believe in the assurance of the believer and I believe in the non-assurance of the make-believer".

The bottom line is that if you are wrong about Jesus, it doesn't matter what you are right about.



drmark -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/9/2008 7:31:14 AM)

quote:

I take it you don't think much of the philosophy of Kierkegaard.
1 Cor 1:18-21



gluadys -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/9/2008 9:41:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

I take it you don't think much of the philosophy of Kierkegaard.
1 Cor 1:18-21


Actually, I think it is the next verse that is most pertinent.



drmark -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/9/2008 10:02:49 AM)

quote:

Actually, I think it is the next verse that is most pertinent.
v 22: "Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom," - I did not know Kierkegaard was of Greek ethnicity. Do you have any observational data to support this theory or just asserting it by faith like you assert evolutionary nonsense?



Jhud -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/9/2008 11:12:43 AM)

quote:

I take it you don't think much of the philosophy of Kierkegaard.


What I don't think much of is nonsense, whomever one rightly or wrongly uses to justify it. I see no evidence that Kierkegaard denied the existence of objective truths, but rather considered our relationship to such truths.



Jhud -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/9/2008 11:15:32 AM)

quote:

If rejecting a metaphysical tenet makes you incapable of judging reality then we are all equally incapable of judging reality. Wouldn't you agree?


Why would I agree with something that stupid?

quote:

The high horse of creationism pretends as if the only possible religion to disbelieve is christianity. It's a very closed minded view of humanity. If rejecting the validity of a holy text automatically makes someone wrong, no matter what, then we are all wrong.


Again, that is ridiculous. If it were the case that a particular description of reality were true, and someone didn’t believe that description, then they would be wrong, not the people who believed it.



DanJames -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/9/2008 11:22:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

Again, that is ridiculous. If it were the case that a particular description of reality were true, and someone didn’t believe that description, then they would be wrong, not the people who believed it.


Woah, easy on the truth there, Jhud. It's closed-minded to say that someone is wrong just because they don't believe in the correct description of reality.



Jhud -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/9/2008 12:08:32 PM)

quote:

Woah, easy on the truth there, Jhud. It's closed-minded to say that someone is wrong just because they don't believe in the correct description of reality.


It rather causes one to wonder whether the word 'wrong' could have any use whatsoever?



gluadys -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/9/2008 2:00:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Actually, I think it is the next verse that is most pertinent.
v 22: "Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom," - I did not know Kierkegaard was of Greek ethnicity. Do you have any observational data to support this theory or just asserting it by faith like you assert evolutionary nonsense?



Kierkegaard was Danish. My point was that Paul was speaking of both the Jews and the Greeks looking for an objective ground for believing: the Jews in a sign, the Greeks in wisdom. But as Christians we proclaim our faith in Christ crucified. Kierkegaard wrote primarily in opposition to Hegel and others who tried to systematize faith on an objectively rational basis. He insisted on the primacy of a personal experience of the divine and of faith.

Interestingly, that was also a key point in the evangelical teaching I was exposed to in my youth. So I am often startled when, in forums like these, I see evangelicals straying away from that basis. To me, that is a departure from the most attractive feature and greatest strength of the evangelical movement.



Jhud -> RE: Mass Extinction and the nature of God. (5/9/2008 2:29:47 PM)

quote:

Interestingly, that was also a key point in the evangelical teaching I was exposed to in my youth. So I am often startled when, in forums like these, I see evangelicals straying away from that basis. To me, that is a departure from the most attractive feature and greatest strength of the evangelical movement.


Ironically, what startles me is the seeming atttempt by Christians in these forums to deny that Christianity has any rational basis at all.



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