RE: All things "Gothard"... (Full Version)

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kernsfamily -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 10:51:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateofgrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels

I have run into different Gothard followers over the years, and the levels into which each one buy into his teachings greatly varies. Some follow it to the max, but many pick and choose.


One thing regarding Gothard and "picking and choosing." When a family signs up for ATI (the homeschooling program), they agree to certain rules.

While some of the more specific and controversial aspects of Gothard's teachings are more difficult to dig up, the information brochure and application for ATI are easily found on ATI's web site, and anyone can find out if the information I have related here is accurate.

Both parents must attend the Basic and Advanced Seminars as a prerequisite for enrollment in ATI. The Advanced Seminar can be taken during the first year of enrolling in ATI.

All children living at home must be enrolled in the program.

You are not allowed to have unrelated people living in your house (this is described as a "firm rule").

You are expected to limit your family's TV viewing to 5 hours a week, and it is "strongly recommended" that you remove all televisions from your home.

While it is not explicitly stated that all modern music must be removed from the home, it is claimed that rock music (including Christian rock) "causes the listener to either react or
come under the domination of the music," and further guidance on identifying and removing rock music from the home is offered through an additional booklet.

Parents will have to write up an explanation of any adopted children in the family, any past criminal offenses, any travel or outside-of-work time commitments of the father, any divorces in the past, any home based business that the wife is involved in, etc. Also, your pastor's name and phone number are required as a reference.


Is the rule forbidding ANY "facial hair" (beard, moustache, etc..etc...), on the father, or any other male relatives in the household, still in place? Some people have said that restriction was lifted...some say it's still in place. It's hard to say.



stateofgrace -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 12:50:11 PM)

I don't know whether the facial hair restriction is still in effect. Obviously there are some things not explict in the application. People have to send in picutres with their application.



ddsisson -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 2:07:47 PM)

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"the red book"


What is "the red book"?

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This is done in order to maintain a more "mainstream" appearance to those "outside" of the organization (as it DOES appear quite "harmless" and "Christian" at first)......and, to keep criticism about the teachings to a minimum, since details are not frequently shared between those on the "inside" with those who are not.


So are you saying that it is kind of cultish? But not necessarily a cult right?

quote:

When a family signs up for ATI (the homeschooling program)


I think this is kind of what my NIL(niece-in-law) is using. I think I remember her mentioning Gothard.

quote:

Both parents must attend the Basic and Advanced Seminars as a prerequisite for enrollment in ATI. The Advanced Seminar can be taken during the first year of enrolling in ATI.

All children living at home must be enrolled in the program.

You are not allowed to have unrelated people living in your house (this is described as a "firm rule").

You are expected to limit your family's TV viewing to 5 hours a week, and it is "strongly recommended" that you remove all televisions from your home.


I am trying to understand this following, so please don't interpret this as trying to cause conflict. But this above does sound kind of cultish. In no way am I saying if you as a family are convicted to not have TV, that, that is wrong. But it seems as they are being dictated to, as well as saying no one unrelated live in your household.

quote:

Parents will have to write up an explanation of any adopted children in the family, any past criminal offenses, any travel or outside-of-work time commitments of the father, any divorces in the past, any home based business that the wife is involved in, etc. Also, your pastor's name and phone number are required as a reference.


Again see my thoughts above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kernsfamily

Is the rule forbidding ANY "facial hair" (beard, moustache, etc..etc...), on the father, or any other male relatives in the household, still in place? Some people have said that restriction was lifted...some say it's still in place. It's hard to say.


quote:

ORIGINAL: stateofgrace

I don't know whether the facial hair restriction is still in effect. Obviously there are some things not explict in the application. People have to send in picutres with their application.


Like I said, I "think" my nephew(DH's brother's son) and his wife are "following" Gothard and he has a beard.


ETA: do they believe in no wearing of pants for women? Again if you do this I am fine, but for someone to dictate that I only wear this or that, or have this or that in my home or do this or that and not do this or that. I am sorry but anyone OTHER THAN God or my DH, has no right to dictate what I do or don't do.



kernsfamily -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 3:22:13 PM)

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ETA: do they believe in no wearing of pants for women? Again if you do this I am fine, but for someone to dictate that I only wear this or that, or have this or that in my home or do this or that and not do this or that. I am sorry but anyone OTHER THAN God or my DH, has no right to dictate what I do or don't do.


Correct. Most that are REALLY into "the program" wear these homemade dresses and such. Again, if that's YOUR personal preference, and you believe that, then that's fine. BUT, Gothard's teachings are probably in there in that it gives a BIBLICAL reason (some kind of scriptural passage) WHY they are not to wear pants. And, that's where I lose it. Yet another passage taken out of context to make sure "the program" fits their beliefs, and to make them appear "biblically sound".


quote:

What is "the red book"?


The "red book" is what you get after completing the first seminar, the "basic seminar". It has ALL of the materials that were taught in that first seminar. (all of the notes, scripture references, etc..etc..). The seminar is typically taught to a group of people via a series of videotapes, and the material is taught at a VERY fast pace (as I mentioned earlier, so fast, it's nearly impossible to look up and reference scripture passages to look up content....you're "supposed" to just follow along, and AGREE with everything taught....without questioning it.).

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So are you saying that it is kind of cultish? But not necessarily a cult right?


It has quite a few "cult-like" characteristics. Especially among the people who are DEEP into it. People do get to the point (not ALL people, but plenty do) where they reference what Gothard "taught" or said about something, and don't even attempt to see what the Bible had said about it. If Gothard said it, then that's good enough for them.

quote:

Like I said, I "think" my nephew(DH's brother's son) and his wife are "following" Gothard and he has a beard.


They could very well be "Followers", but the "followers" that I was referring to are the ones that have their children in the ATI program. (advanced training Institute)....it's their "homeschooling" curriculum program....and more..they have many restrictions placed on their lives in order to be "worthy" of being a part of their ATI program.....

They send out these "wisdom booklets" for those in ATI to teach from....which include a "lesson" and "projects". In one "project", the family is to go to a very public place (mall, airport, etc..etc..), and "observe" people...and make notes, based on APPEARANCES and mere observation, which "spiritual issues/problems" that person has in their life.

NO forms of birth control are "permitted" under Gothard's "system", as God "designed" us to reproduce. This also includes no vasectomies. At their annual ATI conventions, the organization makes a big deal out of the "reversal babies" (those born as a result of their fathers getting a vasectomy-reversal procedure done)....they parade them around at a point in the program.

His views on dating (well, his system is a "courtship"-type of thing) borders on marriages being "arranged"....

He essentially has ALL the answers to control every facet of your life...

One book, which I DID buy (much to the dismay of my inlaws when they saw the book in my library at home), was "A matter of basic principles: Bill Gothard & the Christian Life" by Don Veinot....you can buy it pretty much anywhere, and was published through Midwest Christian Outreach, a Christian organization is essentially a Christian "counter cult" ministry.

And, just "google" Bill Gothard, and there is a wealth of information on the web....from organizations such as Midwest Christian, Personal Freedom Outreach, and many other organizations whose mission is to expose false-teachings and cults that appear to be "Christian".....and help those trapped in the bondage of legalism to escape.



stateofgrace -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 3:42:30 PM)

I don't know whether Gothard requires "dresses only" but I know of Gothard families that follow that rule.

I do remember some of his teachings on female dress. "Eyetraps" are things that apparently draw men's eyes to places they shouldn't go. Two examples are a long strand of pearls (drawing a man's eyes, errrrr...down) and pointed collars, especially large pointed collars (drawing a man's eyes to a woman's chest). What was so funny about that one to me is that at the time I found out about this, folks at my church were so into Ezzo, which is like "Gothard-lite" - and I distinctly remember either Anne Marie Ezzo or the other lady on the tapes wearing one of those floral dresses with the big pointy lace collars that all good "church ladies" used to wear.



ddsisson -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 4:10:14 PM)

quote:

Again, if that's YOUR personal preference, and you believe that, then that's fine. BUT, Gothard's teachings are probably in there in that it gives a BIBLICAL reason (some kind of scriptural passage) WHY they are not to wear pants. And, that's where I lose it.


I know that the Bible says something about looking feminine or something(can remember the exact verse and what it says EXACTLY), but a lady can look like a lady and still wear pants, IMHO.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kernsfamily

quote:

Like I said, I "think" my nephew(DH's brother's son) and his wife are "following" Gothard and he has a beard.


They could very well be "Followers", but the "followers" that I was referring to are the ones that have their children in the ATI program. (advanced training Institute)....it's their "homeschooling" curriculum program....and more..they have many restrictions placed on their lives in order to be "worthy" of being a part of their ATI program.....


I am not sure if they are using this ATI curriculum program or not, they are just starting out. Their oldest child is only 5. Not sure how "5" he is(can't remember his Bday and they have 3 more younger 4, 2 or almost 2 and the last one was just born in Feb)


quote:

NO forms of birth control are "permitted" under Gothard's "system", as God "designed" us to reproduce. This also includes no vasectomies. At their annual ATI conventions, the organization makes a big deal out of the "reversal babies" (those born as a result of their fathers getting a vasectomy-reversal procedure done)....they parade them around at a point in the program.
I am pretty sure they use none.

quote:


His views on dating (well, his system is a "courtship"-type of thing) borders on marriages being "arranged"....


I agree on courtship to an extent, but definitely not "arranged" marriage type. I feel that kids don't need to date(even though I did), but become friends with a group(ie "group date"). But that is another thread all together.

quote:

What was so funny about that one to me is that at the time I found out about this, folks at my church were so into Ezzo, which is like "Gothard-lite"


Never heard of Ezzo either. I do however have a few books from Sword of the Lord-Bill Rice Ranch, which I haven't completely read them all, but I "think" that they are kind of along the Gothard/Ezzo lines. Like I said, I haven't read them all, so I could be wrong.



kernsfamily -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 4:39:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ddsisson
quote:

Again, if that's YOUR personal preference, and you believe that, then that's fine. BUT, Gothard's teachings are probably in there in that it gives a BIBLICAL reason (some kind of scriptural passage) WHY they are not to wear pants. And, that's where I lose it.

I know that the Bible says something about looking feminine or something(can remember the exact verse and what it says EXACTLY), but a lady can look like a lady and still wear pants, IMHO.



well, it's far more than just pants that are a concern to Gothard.

In the Advanced Seminar Textbook, he provides on pages 276-281 information on how women are to select makeup and choose colors that enhance skin tone, how to choose a hair style, how to wear accessories and the place of accents on the clothing as well as how to stand (with illustrations) and why to avoid any slits in the skirt.

sounds like the women of the FLDS "YFZ Ranch" here in Texas if you ask me!



Consecrated2God -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 5:11:23 PM)

One of the Gothard families in our group didn't follow his teachings on dress at all. The women wore pants, and they wore make-up and everything. They just liked the curriculum.



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 5:52:12 PM)

on the birth control issue...someone last time this came up said that they actually push also for babies to not nurse very long as nursing can sometimes prevent ovulation for some women. I know that one point came up once on one of the Duggar's programs...in passing...that she doesn't nurse very long (well...compared to someone like me that believes in child led weaning and nursing at least a year). She is really the only one I have heard passively reference to the nursing part though...other then the person in the last thread that brought up that fact.



Leslie_JnJs_mom -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 9:03:33 PM)

I wonder why they would do that? What does it matter if a mother nurses for another 6 months it is so good for the baby. Perhaps that whole deal with that cult is too fresh in my head.



stateofgrace -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 9:32:19 PM)

Well, first, if she's nursing on a parent-directed schedule (and a lot of Gothard parents did get into Ezzo as well), her milk supply may diminish and not last as long. And a mom with a lot of children might find that nursing on a parent-directed schedule would be more practical for their family situation.



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 9:41:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stateofgrace

Well, first, if she's nursing on a parent-directed schedule (and a lot of Gothard parents did get into Ezzo as well), her milk supply may diminish and not last as long. And a mom with a lot of children might find that nursing on a parent-directed schedule would be more practical for their family situation.

and that Ezzo mindset of "nurse on schedule" is why many many parents were essentially starving their kids. In those kinds of instances I would prefer to see them NOT nurse and give formula...as much of a BFing proponent I am, I am more for the child living and not starving to death because of the parents stupidity to follow that kind of thinking.
In nursing though there are basically three ways to go...one is the Ezzo's way....another is just feeding on demand....and the third is "ecological bfing". Feeding on demand is basically what it sounds like...whenever the baby demands it you feed them for however long they want to eat. "ecological bfing" though is essentially on a schedule if the baby doesn't eat as often as they "need" to to keep your body from ovulating. They estimate that a baby needs to feed every three hours at least around the clock to stave off ovulation in the mother...and the EBFer will not allow a baby to g more then that time in order to stay within the bounds of that way of bfing. They also will not put any other type of soothing device in the baby's mouth...ever. In the ideal situation you could possibly hold off ovulation for as long as a year and a half or more, but that isn't a given. Even in EBFing you will have those women that follow all the rules and still ovulate earlier then others.



OneOfHisJewels -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 10:19:37 PM)

quote:

and that Ezzo mindset of "nurse on schedule" is why many many parents were essentially starving their kids.


Yeah, I have a friend who told me her oldest almost died because of her trying to do Ezzos. Needless to say, she DID NOT use Ezzos with her next three. Her oldest is still quite thin, but that could be just genetics at this point, he certainly gets plenty to eat, now.



Roberta_ -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 11:52:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna

And how they feel about adoption, if that is the case...that disturbs me greatly.[&o]


I missed what they had to say about adoption. As a birthmom and an adoptee, I'm curious.



Roberta_ -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/13/2008 11:59:24 PM)

I was listening to a secular country music station this morning. I was really saddened at how much they were belittling the Duggars.



OneOfHisJewels -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/14/2008 12:02:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna

And how they feel about adoption, if that is the case...that disturbs me greatly.[&o]


I missed what they had to say about adoption. As a birthmom and an adoptee, I'm curious.



They are basically against it. They say it can bring unknown "generational curses" into a family. Just to clarify, I don't think that, that is just a Gothard philosophy.



OneOfHisJewels -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/14/2008 12:04:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

I was listening to a secular country music station this morning. I was really saddened at how much they were belittling the Duggars.


forums blur?[;)]



Roberta_ -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/14/2008 12:26:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

I was listening to a secular country music station this morning. I was really saddened at how much they were belittling the Duggars.


forums blur?[;)]


Oops- yup, I wondered why that didn't show up in the other thread. LOL!

We'll blame it on the CA heat. [;)]



PrincessDonna -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/14/2008 8:10:02 AM)

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They are basically against it. They say it can bring unknown "generational curses" into a family. Just to clarify, I don't think that, that is just a Gothard philosophy.


Probably not, but I don't think it's a common Christian belief either. I for sure believe in generational curses (and blessings!), but I also believe that we serve a God who is BIGGER than those.



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: All things "Gothard"... (5/14/2008 12:05:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna

quote:

They are basically against it. They say it can bring unknown "generational curses" into a family. Just to clarify, I don't think that, that is just a Gothard philosophy.


Probably not, but I don't think it's a common Christian belief either. I for sure believe in generational curses (and blessings!), but I also believe that we serve a God who is BIGGER than those.

AMEN...well said!!!!
a curse is nothing more then the belief and perpetuation of a lie....you give it whatever power it has by your own belief in it. On it's own a curse has no power. The Bible says in Ephesians though that one of the spiritual armor pieces God gives us is the belt of truth...and no lie (or curse) can stand up to the truth and win.
I think it is really sad when Christians get into believing and giving power to things that God has already given us the power and tools to overcome!!!! God isn't the only thing bigger then a curse....He has already given US the power to be bigger then a curse too!!!!



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