Use of scripture (Full Version)

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atheistinpeace -> Use of scripture (5/11/2008 4:49:41 PM)

I have a question about how Christians use scripture - very interested in views on this. Because this post is perhaps more of an explicit challenge than some of my other contributions, responses to this are particularly appreciated.

My question concerns use of scripture. It's something I've been meaning to ask for a while, but a recent thread on having non-Christian friends, started by SoliderinGodsArmy, reminded me to raise this. (The thread is here: http://forums.christianity.com/m_3407215/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm). In his/her post, SoliderinGodsArmy cites scripture to support the case for not having Christian friends. The case itself was reasonable (though most respondents preferred the view that Christians can have non-Christian friends - which I found heartening). On the understanding that someone had granted the Bible creedence as the Word of God, then that someone could cite scripture for only having Christian friends, and use this to justify their actions (whether that justification is then accepted is dependent on 1) interpretation of scripture; and 2) acceptance of the Bible as God's word).

What troubles me is how far this could be taken. To quote from the book of Deuteronomy, Ch 13, KJV:

[6] If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [7] Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; [8] Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: [9] But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. [10] And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Which I interpret to be an instruction to kill followers of other faiths, or of no faith. I know I'm not alone in this interpretation.

An important qualifier - firstly, there is scripture that specifically instructs us not to kill; secondly, I don't recall ever seeing a news item in which this sort of passage is used to justify murder. (I couldn't say the same about some other religions.) And I feel fairly sanguine in saying that only a tiny, tiny minority Christians would ever consider following this instruction (every ideology/philosophy has their share of lunatics - my own philosophy by no means excepted).

But my point is this - if scripture can be accepted, invoked and followed so as to lead to only having Christian friends (in addition to a range of uniequivocally good acts and thoughts), on what basis is the passage from Deuteronomy not followed?

As said, particularly appreciate responses to this. Thanks.

AiP



colliefan -> RE: Use of scripture (5/11/2008 4:59:16 PM)

Scripture must be interpreted within the context of the passage itself, and in the context of the primary audience to which it was addressed. The passage you cite is under the old covenant and was addessed to the Nation of Israel before it entered the promised land, Only a nutcase would attempt to use that passage under the New Covenant. Also, it would be futile to try and use Scripture with an non-believer simply because they do not view it as authorative.



deliveredarling -> RE: Use of scripture (5/11/2008 5:12:54 PM)

Colliefan nailed it on the head! Christians live by the Word of God because we are filled with the HS. We as Christians can't use scripture with non-Christians, A)it doesn't apply, B)why would a non-Christian follow the words of a God they don't believe in, C) the HS is not in the non-Christian to lead them to understanding what the scripture means. I probably did not phrase that in the most understandable way......But maybe it was helpful?



SonInMe1 -> RE: Use of scripture (5/11/2008 8:10:58 PM)

Poor doctrines are started because they take one or a few scriptures and make doctrine from it without taking the entirity of scripture into account.

Many people say the bible disagrees with itself...that it is contradictory. This is false. The bible deals with many diverse situations and has a number of takes on each problem. Context is key and so is complete biblical knowledge.

Read the bible, not to confirm your doctrine, but to challenge it.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Use of scripture (5/12/2008 1:02:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Scripture must be interpreted within the context of the passage itself, and in the context of the primary audience to which it was addressed. The passage you cite is under the old covenant and was addessed to the Nation of Israel before it entered the promised land, Only a nutcase would attempt to use that passage under the New Covenant. Also, it would be futile to try and use Scripture with an non-believer simply because they do not view it as authorative.


Amen.

Matthew 5
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.



LCannon -> RE: Use of scripture (5/12/2008 2:05:15 PM)

Any person can use a limited context to substantiates their limited objective and cast aspersion on a complete message. “[Jesus] proved He had a valid claim [to His Deity] but His own rejected His claim yet as many as receives His message; to them he claimed the right to become redeemed of God and appropriate His Name.“ John 1:11,12

The gentiles nations saw in graphic display the might/power of Israel's(Jehovah)God and had only two responses open to them repentance(Nineveh)or annihilation(Jericho).(Duet. 13)



rileykins -> RE: Use of scripture (5/12/2008 3:16:08 PM)

Hi atheistinpeace

These verses of Scripture were written to the nation Israel under the Old covenant. I believe these instructions to the nation Israel are not about killing people of other faiths, but has to do with an Israelite attempting to entice another Israelite into following after other gods.

These verses of Scripture do not apply to believers today. And to attempt to make them apply by saying that we are not to have non-Christian friends is simply a failure to rightly divide the word of truth. These are not our instructions, we are not the nation Israel, we are not living under the Old Covenant today and it's on that basis that this passage in Deut. does not apply to believers today.

rileykins



billnc -> RE: Use of scripture (5/12/2008 7:44:13 PM)

Jesus said,

"Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7:24.



PolarBear -> RE: Use of scripture (5/14/2008 8:27:35 AM)

As was said, this was part of the Law, the old covenant. But it does raise an interesting question. Jesus fully fulfilled the Law 100%, which makes Him uniquely qualified to be our advocate before God. I take it He didn't kill anyone! Of course it does say to do so to those who entice one to follow gods of the neighboring countries. I suppose noone did that to Jesus. But what if they did?

Also I would perhaps not say that this "does not apply" to believers today. We should carefully consider what it is saying to us. Clearly it is saying WOE to those who try to sway God's chosen! But as Jesus clearly laid out, we should no longer take this judgment into our own hands.



DaveW -> RE: Use of scripture (5/14/2008 8:38:06 AM)

That Deut passage quoted can ONLY be applied by the Israelite people living in the land of Israel. If Israel goes back to a theocratic monarchy or appoint new judges, then perhaps they could obey this verbatim.

Please note that during the New Testament times there was no attempt to kill off the polytheistic Roman occupiers.



PolarBear -> RE: Use of scripture (5/14/2008 11:31:45 AM)

I'm reminded here of Luke 17:1-2. Perhaps that is Jesus' interpretation of this same principle?

1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

God did not give the Law arbitrarily. In context it makes perfect sense. And Jesus is backing that up here, saying that it would actually be better FOR HIM (the one leading God's child astray) to be killed!

I think this is a great illustration of just how perfect God's law and word is. In Revelation we see sinners being judged for their works and thrown in the lake of fire. The Deuteronomy passage as well as this one indicate that those who lead God's people astray will face serious judgment. So serious, in fact, that the sooner someone who offends in this way dies, the less he will be able to lead people astray, and the less punishment he will receive in hell.

This of course does not say we Christians should be the ones who take vengeance. Jesus and Paul are both clear that we should not. That is God's job. But the fact remains that it would be better for such a person to die sooner rather than later.



iamjc-s -> RE: Use of scripture (5/14/2008 11:58:26 AM)

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(below Bible verses = NASB except "quoted")

part of 1Sa 28:9 Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?"

part of 2Sa 16:9 "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over now and cut off his head."

Ps 34:16 The face of the LORD is against evildoers, To cut off the memory of them from the earth.

Ps 37:38a But transgressors will be altogether destroyed

Ps 101:8 Every morning I will destroy all the wicked of the land, So as to cut off from the city of the LORD all those who do iniquity.

Prov. 2:22 But the wicked will be cut off from the land And the treacherous will be uprooted from it.

Isa 29:20 For the ruthless will come to an end and the scorner will be finished, Indeed all who are intent on doing evil will be cut off

Nahum 1:14 The LORD has issued a command concerning you: "Your name will no longer be perpetuated. I will cut off idol and image From the house of your gods. I will prepare your grave, For you are contemptible."

Mt 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than * for your whole body to go into hell.

Mt 18:8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Mark 9:43-45 ----43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell

Rom. 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

The Lord knew if someone were to try to "entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers", even if you did not fall prey, others weaker would likely & thus all of them would be put in the eternal fire. Instead, it was better for the 1 to be cut off or die.
For sin spreads like disease & the only one who can cure it is the divine Doctor Jesus.
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