Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (Full Version)

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Concerto -> Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/11/2008 9:36:25 PM)

The answer to my question? Everyone. Everyone is to blame. Particularly our leaders in Washington by failing to do one single thing to actually move us toward energy independence.

We, as consumers are also to blame. We want what we want. We drive big SUVs...or other gas guzzlers because they look nice, who cares that they only get 12 miles per gallon?

Hopefully we will all wake up before the energy crisis cripples our economy. But, maybe that is what it will take...$10.00 per gallon or higher for all of us to finally actually do something!

C



Stratplayer -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/11/2008 11:00:50 PM)

I don't know if you can really blame the consumer; everybody isn't driving a Subarban or an Expedition. Even people who drive cars that get pretty decent milage are now feeling the pain. For many of us, having a car is not a status symbol or an vain luxury but rather, our vehicles are a very vital part of our lives. Plus, the price of housing has in many cases driven people to live further away from work and along with the resulting traffic jams has contributed to the increased demand for fuel. So I wold blame our government for failing to move towards energey independance. It seems like our whole way of doing things is just messed up. We are supposed to be the greatest nation in the world, but day by day it seems that the emporor has no clothers.



garsyt -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 12:34:58 AM)

quote:

We, as consumers are also to blame. We want what we want. We drive big SUVs...or other gas guzzlers because they look nice, who cares that they only get 12 miles per gallon?


I drive a mini van that gets roughly 22 miles per gallon highway - little less in town. I don't drive it because it looks good. I drive it because it is the ONLY vechile the will seat my entire family. It's not new, not flashy, just a basic mini van. I also don't have much choice - in order to get to decent shopping I have to travel at least 10 miles. My kid's schools are 9 and 13 miles away, thankfully in the same direction and thankfully bus service is still free. Until Yesterday, my husband had a huge cummute of about 20 miles one way to work - but he drove his little Honda that gets a bit better gas mileage then the van.

We don't go nearly as much as we used to. WE simply can't. My FIL maybe facing the amputation of his foot, and it's KILLING my husband not to be able to be with him because it would cost us to much in gas to travel a mere 5 hours away.

BUT what irks me is the scene I was witness to at the grocery store this past week. I had pulled into the parking lot as this man two cars down was loading his "party supplies" into his Hummer. I go to get out of my car and he scowls at me accusing me of driving a gas guzzling mini van. [&:][&:] Confused, I simply responded with "Yeah, with kids I pretty much have too." He responds - "No excuse! so I responded with "So what's your excuse for driving something that likely uses more gas then my van?" To that he simply got irate. At that moment the lady that owned the car between us came out and was getting into her late model whatever car as he SLAMMED his cart into the side of it. I grabbed my cell at that point and dialed 911 as I was unsure of what was going to happen. The lady, just looks at the man as he scowls again and states "well it's just an old car anyway." to which she replies, "but sir it's the only one I've got AND it's paid for AND I would appreciate it if you treated me and my property with respect." I was Amazed at how calm this woman was! Honestly? I think this man had a few to many already and by the looks of his cart he was going to be enjoying more soon. But there was really nothing this other lady or I could do to stop him from getting into his HUMMER and driving down the road. We got his plate number and gave that to the state trooper that responded to my call.

NO one has a right to blame someone else for the worlds problems, when they themselves need to take a serious look at how they are also contributing to the problem. I felt this man was trying to remove the speck from my eye, having no idea of the HUGE timber in his own.

I might drive a gas hog of a mini van - BUT my family and I are serious recylers, we bike and walk when we can, we volunteer or time and energy to help out where we can. Instead of always going to the store and buying more books, we borrow them from the library. We carpool if possible with other nearby families for activities, and we've taken measures to make sure our home is run with as much energy efficiency as possible. I've even gotten to the point where I use canvas bags for grocery shopping most of the time and if possible don't take plastic bags at all.

I'm not sure who all's to blame for the gas prices. I'm certain that it's likely a multifaceted problem. BUT it does start with America's dependence on foreign oil and our government selling our Alaskian oil - overseas instead of keeping it here at home.

Anyway - I don't see any oil exec's or big wig politicians sitting at home with the bills piling up and debating between a gallon of gas for their cars - whatever the type, or a gallon of milk for their kids.

Anyway - I've got other things I'd rather be doing right now that ranting about the cost of gas. I actually got excited to see it below $3.83 and down to $3.79 this morning. Pathic, I know!

Blessings,

Garsy



SteveSund -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 7:49:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

I don't know if you can really blame the consumer; everybody isn't driving a Subarban or an Expedition.


Yes, you can. Demand for gas is one of the factors keeping the price high. It is one of many factors, but you can't ignore it.



Stratplayer -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 8:10:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveSund

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

I don't know if you can really blame the consumer; everybody isn't driving a Subarban or an Expedition.


Yes, you can. Demand for gas is one of the factors keeping the price high. It is one of many factors, but you can't ignore it.


Blame a guy for demanding gas so he can get to work or take his kids to school? I guess we should appologize for having lives then.



P31W -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 8:22:55 AM)

Let me see now.

I still drive by myself to the grocery store each week.

At noon I will drive to a luncheon my next door neighbor is also attending and neither of us wants to share a ride because we "want" to do other things afterwards and not wait on one another.

My husband still drive himself to work each day by himself. (several hundred people from my area will be going right past his office and could easily drop him off)

We as a couple still drive by ourselves to chruch each week. (min of three trips per week ---- if someone wants a ride they are welcome but we don't ask others to "carpool" with us or allow us to ride with them)


I have not chosen to start a co-op with anyone in my area to run drive together nor have I honestly done too much to cut down on my driving. I still do pretty much as I please.

I also still drive to places that are within 5 miles of my home. I know that's something I can walk easily if I wanted to or cared enough.

I also help keep the prices high because I don't sit in line at the cheapest pumps in town. For a few cents more I will whip into the service station that has no waiting. So I give them "reason" to keep their prices high.



SO I guess you can blame ME.[;)]



blessedinnyc -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 10:23:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

I don't know if you can really blame the consumer; everybody isn't driving a Subarban or an Expedition. Even people who drive cars that get pretty decent milage are now feeling the pain. For many of us, having a car is not a status symbol or an vain luxury but rather, our vehicles are a very vital part of our lives. Plus, the price of housing has in many cases driven people to live further away from work and along with the resulting traffic jams has contributed to the increased demand for fuel. So I wold blame our government for failing to move towards energey independance. It seems like our whole way of doing things is just messed up. We are supposed to be the greatest nation in the world, but day by day it seems that the emporor has no clothers.

But ultimately, if it weren't for consumers, gasoline would cost $0. And in particular, Americans make up 5% of the world's population but consume 20% of its oil.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 10:24:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

Blame a guy for demanding gas so he can get to work or take his kids to school? I guess we should appologize for having lives then.

No we simply blame him for moving too far away from these things so he could live in a nicer house.



McFatty -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 11:11:25 AM)

I blame Wal Mart.



GroupW -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 12:00:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

Let me see now.

I still drive by myself to the grocery store each week.

At noon I will drive to a luncheon my next door neighbor is also attending and neither of us wants to share a ride because we "want" to do other things afterwards and not wait on one another.

My husband still drive himself to work each day by himself. (several hundred people from my area will be going right past his office and could easily drop him off)

We as a couple still drive by ourselves to chruch each week. (min of three trips per week ---- if someone wants a ride they are welcome but we don't ask others to "carpool" with us or allow us to ride with them)


I have not chosen to start a co-op with anyone in my area to run drive together nor have I honestly done too much to cut down on my driving. I still do pretty much as I please.

I also still drive to places that are within 5 miles of my home. I know that's something I can walk easily if I wanted to or cared enough.

I also help keep the prices high because I don't sit in line at the cheapest pumps in town. For a few cents more I will whip into the service station that has no waiting. So I give them "reason" to keep their prices high.



SO I guess you can blame ME.[;)]


Ditto on all the above plus I live in a mountain neighborhood that requires that I have a gass guzzling 4WD when it snows (which it does a LOT, and it's supposed to tonight).

So, I'm to blame as well.

You can also blame all the various participants in the subprime mortgage mess (borrowers, brokers, bankers, Wall St., ratings agencies, bond insurers, investors, Fed, SEC, OCC, OTS, Treasury...) since the mess has in part led to a substantially weaker dollar.



Stratplayer -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 12:17:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

Blame a guy for demanding gas so he can get to work or take his kids to school? I guess we should appologize for having lives then.

No we simply blame him for moving too far away from these things so he could live in a nicer house.


But you see not everybody moved out to the suburbs for the sake of having a nice house. Some did, but in a number of cases it was a matter of being able to buy a house that one could actually afford. But should we really blame consumers for being consumers? Isn't that what drives this economy? Now when money gets tight and nobody is shopping, Bush wants to give us a few pennies to play around with in the hope of jump starting the economy. And if you want a nice house why should you be blamed? America is supposed to be a place where you can have whatever you want as long as you could afford and didn't have to do anything illegal to obtain it...or so we were told.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 12:48:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

But you see not everybody moved out to the suburbs for the sake of having a nice house. Some did, but in a number of cases it was a matter of being able to buy a house that one could actually afford. But should we really blame consumers for being consumers? Isn't that what drives this economy? Now when money gets tight and nobody is shopping, Bush wants to give us a few pennies to play around with in the hope of jump starting the economy. And if you want a nice house why should you be blamed? America is supposed to be a place where you can have whatever you want as long as you could afford and didn't have to do anything illegal to obtain it...or so we were told.

No. Production drives the economy. In an economy where the trade deficit is a problem, people who produce more than they consume are more beneficial than those who consume more than they produce.



Stratplayer -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 1:14:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

No. Production drives the economy. In an economy where the trade deficit is a problem, people who produce more than they consume are more beneficial than those who consume more than they produce.


But why produce something if there is no demand for it? I think we are both right because demand AND production is what drives the economy.



McFatty -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 1:34:00 PM)

The problem is that demand has not risen very much at all, relatively, in the past decade or two, yet gas prices have almost quadrupled in the past twenty years. Demand isn't the answer.



rcjames -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 1:52:06 PM)

I guess that I would blame the folks who have resisted nuclear power plants, placing wind generator farms in thier neighbors or off their coast, fought and stopped oil exploration off the Atlantic and Pacific coast, the north slop, Anwar, developing clean oil shale production, clean coal reserves in Colorado, Nebraska, and other states in the west, etc. And do not forget that there have been no refineries built in over 30 years because of suits by the same folks.

Those folks for the vast vast majority are liberals and demokrats.

The main excuse now is that it would take 15 years for some of these areas to become productive and up to 20 years for the nuclear power plants to come on line.

But these are the same folks that 15 or 30 years in the past blocked the same energy independent ideas.

That where the fault lies.

Now the pressure is from world wide industrial growth, population growth, OPEC, and do not forget the speculators.

We have the eneegy reserves to be oil independent for over 50 years and in that time could develop alternative energy sources.

Thanks
RC

edited for spelling



blessedinnyc -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 2:11:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I guess that I would blame the folks who have resisted nuclear power plants, placing wind generator farms in thier neighbors or off their coast, fought and stopped oil exploration off the Atlantic and Pacific coast, the north slop, Anwar, developing clean oil shale production, clean coal reserves in Colorado, Nebraska, and other states in the west, etc. And do not forget that there have been no refineries built in over 30 years because of suits by the same folks.

Before you complain Ted Kennedy, many of these people are also Republicans. I, personally, would be happy letting a nuclear plant be built across the street from me if it were a relatively safe Light water reactor with a 4 ft-thick concrete containment dome- like all of the existing commercial plants in the US, and we could solve the country's energy problems this way.

Alas, the problem is much more complicated.

If everyone on this planet consumed as much oil as Americans do (this is the direction the world is heading in), we would have to produce 450 million barrels of oil per day. This is five times the 85 million barrels per day we produce now, and would likely take roughly 500 discoveries on the order of the elephant we found off the coast of Brazil- every ten years.

In reality, this isn't happening. So more oil really isn't the answer.

Nuclear is a great solution, but how do we translate that energy into stuff that can power your car? Well, that would be those hippie electric cars that only crazy liberals drive and want to provide research for.

quote:

Those folks for the vast vast majority are liberals and demokrats.

How did I guess you were going to go here. The truth is that NIMBYism is a problem for both Democrats and Republicans. The only difference is that Democrats also advocate reducing consumption. Even Al Gore, the evil occasional user of private jets, drives a hybrid, uses CFLs in his home, and has those unsightly solar panels on his property.

quote:

The main excuse now is that it would take 15 years for some of these areas to become productive and up to 20 years for the nuclear power plants to come on line.

It would take a little under 10 between the CEO making the decision to start operating a plant and the plant coming online. In fact several new plants are expected to come online by 2015 based on decisions made in 2005.

quote:

But these are the same folks that 15 or 30 years in the past blocked the same energy independent ideas.

That where the fault lies.

Now the pressure is from world wide industrial growth, population growth, OPEC, and do not forget the speculators.

We have the eneegy reserves to be oil independent for over 50 years and in that time could develop alternative energy sources.

Actually, we are about to bury enough U-238 in Yucca Mountain to power the US, at current levels of energy consumption, for 200 years. Of course, it would take about $1 Trillion worth of infrastructure to do this. If we were to have a $2/gallon tax on both diesel and gasoline for three years, we could pay for it all.

At the end of the day, the NIMBYs may be at fault for blocking solutions, but it's ultimately consumption and an entitlement mentality about $1.25/gallon gasoline that are the problems.



rhippie -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 2:19:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

Let me see now.

I still drive by myself to the grocery store each week.

At noon I will drive to a luncheon my next door neighbor is also attending and neither of us wants to share a ride because we "want" to do other things afterwards and not wait on one another.

My husband still drive himself to work each day by himself. (several hundred people from my area will be going right past his office and could easily drop him off)

We as a couple still drive by ourselves to chruch each week. (min of three trips per week ---- if someone wants a ride they are welcome but we don't ask others to "carpool" with us or allow us to ride with them)


I have not chosen to start a co-op with anyone in my area to run drive together nor have I honestly done too much to cut down on my driving. I still do pretty much as I please.

I also still drive to places that are within 5 miles of my home. I know that's something I can walk easily if I wanted to or cared enough.

I also help keep the prices high because I don't sit in line at the cheapest pumps in town. For a few cents more I will whip into the service station that has no waiting. So I give them "reason" to keep their prices high.



SO I guess you can blame ME.[;)]



Blame me as well 'cause I agree with P31W



ajlewis -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 4:56:04 PM)

How many here were around during the oil embargo of the 70's? We didn't learn our lesson then. Maybe when it happens again or terrorists blow up some oil field then we'll all sit around and think "...maybe we should have listened."

Collectively we have no one to blame but ourselves.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 8:56:26 PM)

My Mr Fusion works fine, thank you very much.



Concerto -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 9:36:56 PM)

Thank you all for your replies. We are all guilty, as I said. We can deny our guilt, but, that is just a denial of the truth. As for mini-vans, I am a bit torn on that. While I can see a "need" for the vehicle due to certain sized families, I wonder how families managed before the invention of mini vans.

As for the Hummer, well, unless you are a forest ranger, or some type of emergency worker, there is no need for those vehicles.

C



garsyt -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 9:38:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

Blame a guy for demanding gas so he can get to work or take his kids to school? I guess we should appologize for having lives then.

No we simply blame him for moving too far away from these things so he could live in a nicer house.


But you see not everybody moved out to the suburbs for the sake of having a nice house. Some did, but in a number of cases it was a matter of being able to buy a house that one could actually afford. But should we really blame consumers for being consumers? Isn't that what drives this economy? Now when money gets tight and nobody is shopping, Bush wants to give us a few pennies to play around with in the hope of jump starting the economy. And if you want a nice house why should you be blamed? America is supposed to be a place where you can have whatever you want as long as you could afford and didn't have to do anything illegal to obtain it...or so we were told.


I agree Strat. WE moved out of the city to an area where we could actually afford a decent plot of land and build our home on it - Trust me it's nothing fancy - 1500 sq feet for a family of 6. We simply could not afford to buy a home even in the suberbs close to the schools we wanted our children to attend. The subdivision next door to the elementary school has lots and homes available for 3X the price we paid for our home on a quarter of an acre with mature, producing fruit and shade trees. And the plots are postage stamp sized - the houses may be larger but to me it's not worth the cost of the mortgage. We also moved out of the city to provide our children with a bit of a calmmer lifestyle. I wanted a house we could afford - sure it's nicer then what we had been renting but isn't that the point? To better ourselves instead of taking steps backwards.

Blessings,

Garsy



garsyt -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/12/2008 9:43:43 PM)

quote:

I wonder how families managed before the invention of mini vans.
They managed by not buckling everyone up or having to follow the law that requires children under a certain age or weight to be in carseats. At one time I had 3 that required carseats.

There was one time when I was younger that my parents took 5 of us children out to Boston from Minnesota in a tiny compact car. I think I was 10 or 11 at the time and we had four across the back seat and not a one of us were buckled in. My mother in the front seat held my youngest brother. These days that would most certainly not be allowed nor should it be.

Blessings,

Garsy



SteveSund -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/13/2008 9:11:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveSund

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stratplayer

I don't know if you can really blame the consumer; everybody isn't driving a Subarban or an Expedition.


Yes, you can. Demand for gas is one of the factors keeping the price high. It is one of many factors, but you can't ignore it.


Blame a guy for demanding gas so he can get to work or take his kids to school? I guess we should appologize for having lives then.


Don't forget little old ladies that need to get to Bingo.

No, you shouldn't apologize, but then don't complain when gas prices go up. If we somehow decreased overall demand, prices would go down. As some others have pointed out, there are other factors besides demand, but as long as we rely heavily on massive amounts of oil, then expect to pay more and more for that.



stellaluna -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/13/2008 9:15:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveSund
No, you shouldn't apologize, but then don't complain when gas prices go up.

This I totally agree with. There is nothing more annoying to me than the friends I have--with no kids--driving huge SUVs and fancy cars complaining about how much it costs to fill up. Please. [8|]



Sophie11 -> RE: Gas Prices..Who is to blame? (5/13/2008 10:37:09 AM)

For all of you who say that we should just stop driving as much or go by a hybrid, easier said than done. Well maybe it is easy for those who are blessed with great paying jobs close to home, and who can AFFORD to follow those steps. We live in the country, and the job my husband has had for 10 years now is a half an hour drive. There is no job closer that would pay even close to what he is making, no not even if you consider the difference in gas money. Trust me we've looked into it. So the drive to work is a must. Should he walk or ride a bicycle 25 miles each way? He of course cannot, so therefore we do not go hardly anywhere else but to visit our families and get groceries and go to church!

Also, we do not live far from the city in order to have a huge house and lots of extras. We would never be able to afford anything in the city. Right now we live in a house that is 840 square feet, 2 bedrooms and 1 tiny bath that was surely only made for one person at a time! And we also have a child so the 2 bedrooms are necessary.

So even through this maybe you say that we are still to blame. Fine. But then let me ask you what should we do then? We have never had much, we have enough just not any extra! [:D] But we have been living the same as everyone else in this country long before the gas prices went sky high. So when they did, we had no money to buy the expensive housing closer to my husbands job. And with what money would you have us buy a hybrid? We have a small 4 door car that gets pretty good gas mileage, and no payment (which is the best thing about that car!).
What more should we do?

This country is how it is. And how it is and has been for a long time is reliant on vehicles. Quite frankly it is stupid to try and compare the current times with long ago, as in saying "what did people used to do before cars"? The world was an entirely different place before cars, and when people were not reliant on them, they had an entirely different system that has been completely dissolved nowadays. So you go ahead and get rid of your car. And while your at it turn off your electricity and your phone. Go ahead. Get a horse and cart, that sounds nice hmmm? Figure out how to build a barn on your small lot using only materials close enough for your poor lame horse to drag back to your property. Raise some cows and chickens. Plant a garden. Burn candles or oil lamps for light. Only a fireplace will do for heat in the winter so make sure you study up on those knitting skills because you're going to be needing some heavy sweaters and socks.

The problem with using oil runs deeper than just cars. How do you think we get all of our food and goods into those lovely Wal-Mart supercenters? Not with bicycles, I can guarantee you. But where will we all be if all of the stores suddenly stopped using trucks? In bad shape. There are many more examples but that would just go on and on. So anyway what I'm trying to say is that there is no easy fix for what has happened with the price of gasoline, but to sit around blaming the Average Joe for it is ridiculous.



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